Why do the liberal Democrats want to take guns away from Americans? page 164

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Well Redem, You should know better than these sources since you live there. But again, I should know better about my country since I live here. You get your information from news sources just like I do. We have to because we don’t go from one country to the other. I have never been to England.

What I’m trying to say is your information about this subject is no better than mine. You just see it from your side of the pond and I see it from my side.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Well Redem, You should know better than these sources since you live there. But again, I should know better about my country since I live here. You get your information from news sources just like I do. We have to because we don’t go from one country to the other. I have never been to England.

What I’m trying to say is your information about this subject is no better than mine. You just see it from your side of the pond and I see it from my side.

I really like my side of the pond better.
http://tinyurl.com/lo9xof
Big Brother. He’s always watching you. Always.

 
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Well Redem, You should know better than these sources since you live there. But again, I should know better about my country since I live here. You get your information from news sources just like I do. We have to because we don’t go from one country to the other. I have never been to England.
What I’m trying to say is your information about this subject is no better than mine. You just see it from your side of the pond and I see it from my side.

Nah, my information is just better. I don’t rely on anecdotes and feelings, I use actual data.

Crime rates have been falling since the passage of the new gun laws in 1997, there is no ambiguity in that, the trend is clear and obvious. You’re just wrong whenever you repeat this claim.

I really like my side of the pond better.
http://tinyurl.com/lo9xof
Big Brother. He’s always watching you. Always.

The side that thinks the DailyMail is a reputible news source? Eh, no thanks, that sounds terrifying tbh. As for CCTV cameras, they don’t mention that the vast majority are privately owned, I notice, and that they’re there to record potential break ins in shops and the like, not to monitor private citizens for the state.

 
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Crime rates have been falling since the passage of the new gun laws in 1997, there is no ambiguity in that, the trend is clear and obvious. You’re just wrong whenever you repeat this claim.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/weekinreview/29liptak.html?pagewanted=all

This suggests that it isn’t as clear cut as you may like to think it is. Correlation does not prove causation, stop using that as an argument.

 
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I made no such argument, I’m pointing out that not only does the trend following the passage of the law in question not agree with the claim being made by jhco, it is in fact the opposite of his claim, strongly the opposite. To the extent that there is no reasonable room for doubt or misinterpretation, except for deliberate obstinate and wilful deceit.

 
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Redem, here’s my data. Read this book (it was a study by a reputable researcher from 1977-2005):
http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493636

 
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That’s not data, that’s a link to a shopping cart. The book itself is far from proof of anything, the topic in general is hotly contested in academia, and the specific book in question is not wildly regarded. And importantly, the author is clearly biased, with the generic anti-government stance on all issues.

 
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Originally posted by Redem:

That’s not data, that’s a link to a shopping cart. The book itself is far from proof of anything, the topic in general is hotly contested in academia, and the specific book in question is not wildly regarded. And importantly, the author is clearly biased, with the generic anti-government stance on all issues.

Wow. Just ignore it then huh? Is that your tactic? Really? Just ignore over 2 dozen years of research? READ THE BOOK, REDEM. Don’t just BS your way through this. The book covers a lot of different studies, not just his own. Studies done by both liberals and conservatives and the conclusion reached by ALL of these studies is one of the following:
1) The presence of privately owned firearms and decreased gun control has a neutral effect on crime (as in, crime goes neither up or down).
2) The presence of privately owned firearms and decreased gun control effectively lowers crime rates.

Not a SINGLE study, survey, or experiment showed ANY relation to the presence of privately owned firearms/decreased gun control laws and an increase in criminal activity. Not a single one. Read the book.

 
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I can’t do much else, or do you really expect me to buy the damn thing? As for the book’s contents, cherry picking studies for a book does not make it more reliable.

The author is biased, his studies are not well regarded among his peers. Why should I pay money to look any closer than that?

As for the claim that not a single study has ever shown any increase in criminality related to lax gun control laws, that’s clearly rubbish. There are quite a few. Pretty sure I’ve linked a few in this thread already.
Here, try this one

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:
Originally posted by Ketsy:

Sources for the 300% rise in crime? Preferably an independent source, not something from a website that is arguing post-hoc. Also, the second website doesn’t even load properly for me.

These aren’t the original sources, but good reads on the subject.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2656875.stm

http://www.famguardian.org/PublishedAuthors/Media/Antishyster/V10N2-GreatBritainAndGunControl.pdf

With specific regard to the ‘Great Britain and Gun Control’ PDF

I stopped reading the nonsense after the first page…

It erroneously states, amongst other things, since 1996 that we Brits are only certified members of approved gun clubs are allowed to keep .22, or smaller, caliber firearms that must be stored, locked at the gun club.

Absolute nonsense – as of the last time I renewed my firearm’s license (just a few years ago) there were no restrictions on caliber, both of my firearms were kept at home in a gun safe (along with ammunition, casings, bullets, primers & powder for hand loading), nor was it a requirement that anyone be a member of a target shooting club (although that is one reason, of many, that a firearms certificate can be requested.

There are restrictions – no fully automatic firearms nor pistols (with some exceptions I don’t pretend to understand – some people can still own and operate pistols) and you need to have a reason for ownership such as pest control, target shooting, hunting, etc, etc… Restrictions on the types of people who can legally hold a firearm or shotgun certificate (i.e. if you’ve a record for armed robbery you’ll not likely get a legal gun)

It further states that the ‘right of self defense has been virtually abrogated in England which is, again, complete hogwash. Any person may take any reasonable measure, up to and including inflicting lethal force, to defend themselves. The only caveat to that is that the force exerted must be ’proportionate’ to the threat experienced…

e.g. If you’re a farmer, for example, and spot three burglars running AWAY from your property having already robbed you, you can’t shoot them in the back.

If, however, you’re disturbed by a mask wearing, knife wielding burglar or being mugged (oddly enough, even though firearms are not prevalent in homes, most criminals are also unarmed**… or should that be because?) then you’re perfectly at liberty to stab, bash with a ‘heavy’ implement, kick, etc, etc as the circumstances allow to prevent you or your family from coming to harm.

Yes, crimes against property here have increased… most, if the police are to be believed, are opportunistic in nature… most burglaries do seem to occur during the day, because people aren’t home.

Apparently we’re catching the US up in terms of homicides… the 2011 global study on homicide tends to disagree showing that intentional homicide rates in both countries / regions (and, in fact, globally) are generally falling and have been for some time (some countries do buck the trend however – most notably in S. America and Africa).

Incidentally, our last recorded rate was 1.2 per 100,000 (2008) falling from 1.4 per 100,000 (2007), in the US it was 5.2 per 100,000 (2008) falling from 5.5 per 100,000 (2007) (data source – you can apply filters on the left to compare countries/dates)

Those were the obvious errors / misinformation contained within the first few paragraphs… I’m quite glad I didn’t bother to read the rest.

**In 2008-09 firearms were involved in 0.3% or 1 in every 330 crimes recorded by police in England and Wales – BBC

 
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Originally posted by scoopolard:

I really like my side of the pond better.
http://tinyurl.com/lo9xof
Big Brother. He’s always watching you. Always.

Good deal, scoop. Check out this page and have discussions with other like-minded individuals.

 
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Originally posted by Redem:

These aren’t the original sources, but good reads on the subject.

Still peddling that rubbish? Crime didn’t rise after the change in the gun laws in the late 90s, it fell. And has kept falling. The year they’re referring to with the rise is the year where they changed how they recorded crime rates.

Why is it you guys cannot accept any links that might go against what you are arguing, yet put out links that are opposite but from just as lame of sources in our eyes? Now I am willing to take your word for a lot of things that happen in the UK since you live there, but you are going to have to give me credit for telling you facts on America since I live here. You are trying to tell us Americans we don’t know what is best for us, but you, in all your wisdom, can run our country better than we can. Yet, we don’t like your country or how it is operated. If you like being a subject of an all powerful government it is your choice. We Americans are happy with our way of life and don’t like the long noses poking into our way of life. You know, we fought your country to get away from all of that BS.

 
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Why is it you guys cannot accept any links that might go against what you are arguing, yet put out links that are opposite but from just as lame of sources in our eyes?

Official data is not the same as some opinion piece or random blog. They’re just not, and if you can’t see the difference… =/

The trends in criminal data are not a matter of opinion, they’re based on hard data. That data is available for both the US and UK, anyone trying to claim that crime rates have increased since the change in guns laws is lying, stupid, or has been lied to and not noticed.

 
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Well, that is good for your country. It is not for ours. We are in a fight right now just to keep our freedoms from an administration that can’t stand our Constitution or what it stands for. Yes, I consider Obama a socialist who is destroying what we have built in the reach for power. Right now he is governing by Executive order because our congress is putting roadblocks up to keep his agenda from taking away our way of life. If they fail, however, you are going to see violence in this country. The people here are fed up. They have no hope for the future of our country and without hope for a future they become angry…and militant. We can be pushed only so far.

 
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Stricter gun laws reduces crime.

If only criminals have guns, they will no longer hesitate to rob people for fear of them having guns.

This will obviously lower the crime rate!!

Discuss this FLAWLESS LOGIC

 
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Originally posted by CROWlingInMySkin:

Good God, your sarcasm is just painful now.

Well, since I already commented on your post, I guess I should go full-circle now and say that you’re leaving out a lot of essential details. You’re leaving out a lot of essential details.

 
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Is Crow someone’s alt?

 
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Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:

Is Crow someone’s alt?

Yes, he’s one of Mafefe’s many alts.

Well the one that hasn’t been banned yet, anyway.

 
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Wow. FUCK TEXTILE. Sorry Redem…I’m not rewriting my response again. Dear God. I hate textile so goddamn much.

 
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Scoop, is Redem still trying to tell you how wonderful the UK is compared to us barbarians? HaHa! As soon as they get in trouble they will be begging us to help them like they did in WW2.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

You seem to be pretty full of yourself today. More than usual, I mean.

 
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Yeah, I’m feeling good. My wife got the trim in our rental house painted and I replaced the front door. A good day.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Okay, so it wasn’t exactly sex.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Scoop, is Redem still trying to tell you how wonderful the UK is compared to us barbarians? HaHa! As soon as they get in trouble they will be begging us to help them like they did in WW2.

I know lol.
I’m really pissed though because I had the perfect response and textile raped it…as usual.

 
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Well, that is good for your country. It is not for ours. We are in a fight right now just to keep our freedoms from an administration that can’t stand our Constitution or what it stands for. Yes, I consider Obama a socialist who is destroying what we have built in the reach for power. Right now he is governing by Executive order because our congress is putting roadblocks up to keep his agenda from taking away our way of life. If they fail, however, you are going to see violence in this country. The people here are fed up. They have no hope for the future of our country and without hope for a future they become angry…and militant. We can be pushed only so far.

I’m sorry to be the one to break this to you, but basing your decisions on vague feelings that are contradicted by the data is a poor way to make decisions. Obama is not a socialist, nothing he has done or said could possibly lead someone to the honest conclusion that he is a socialist. He is not trying to destroy the US in a reach for power. He is not “governing by executive order”.

You’re just wrong, and angry, which is a bad combination that is leading to your oh-so-subtly veiled threats of murder and violence.

Scoop, is Redem still trying to tell you how wonderful the UK is compared to us barbarians?

It’s certainly a safer place to live, yes. Thanks in part to the gun control laws we have.

As soon as they get in trouble they will be begging us to help them like they did in WW2.

I don’t think there was much begging at all. Making things up again, eh?