Why do the liberal Democrats want to take guns away from Americans? page 196

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How many facts does it take to actually show the fallacy of gun-control?

So if gun-control fails (countries with freedom of gun ownership have lower, relative violent crimes than countries which have gun control), then this must mean Americans are violent people. (America has relatively more violent crime than the Netherlands, per 100k inhabitants.)

 
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Wow, two major shootings this year! And only a month apart. If we can squeeze 4 or 5 more before the year ends, we might have a chance of seriously considering gun control. We might even be able to get away with two really big ones, but if there are fewer than 100 dead before the year ends, we will maintain status quo. School starts up again soon, so we’ll see how that turns out.

 
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I am just repeating what I say every 50 pages or so, but I wish you guys addressed someone’s arguments besides JHCO. Not everyone who is in favor of gun ownership is also in favor of entirely unregulated firearms.

 
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Originally posted by TheBSG:

I am just repeating what I say every 50 pages or so, but I wish you guys addressed someone’s arguments besides JHCO. Not everyone who is in favor of gun ownership is also in favor of entirely unregulated firearms.

Most people aren’t. I made the gun regulations thread just to get a feeling for what specific posters would prefer, and even jcho basically said that some regulations are necessary.

That being said, I didn’t respond to your post because it’s more or less how I feel.


Originally posted by Darkruler2005:

How many facts does it take to actually show the fallacy of gun-control?

So if gun-control fails (countries with freedom of gun ownership have lower, relative violent crimes than countries which have gun control), then this must mean Americans are violent people. (America has relatively more violent crime than the Netherlands, per 100k inhabitants.)

I don’t think gun control (more or less) matters so much on a large scale, so I think I’m being forced to conclude that Americans are in a more violent place (for whatever reason). I wonder if there is any data one could use to support this. I can’t think of any myself.

 
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Originally posted by donseptico:
Originally posted by jhco50:

All of the factual information I gave seems to have just blown over everyone’s head. This leaves me to believe only emotion and lack of knowledge (ignorance) prevails for the anti-gun side of the argument. Facts only muddle the thinking processes of some who are posting. How many facts does it take to actually show the fallacy of gun-control?

All of the factual information I, and others, gave seems to have just blown over everyone’s head. This leaves me to believe that only emotion and stubbornness (another form of ignorance?) prevails for the pro-gun side of the argument. Facts only muddle the thinking process of some who are posting. How many facts does it take to actually show the benefits of gun control?

I’m sorry, I couldn’t resist… I know there’s no such thing as a ‘perfect’ system but as control does not necessarily equal prohibition, and studies show a correlation between firearms prevalence and violent crime rates, and studies show no or negligible effect on crime rates, etc, etc it certainly appears that gun control does, indeed, work for most of the rest of the civilised world most of the time.

I know the 2nd amendment gives the right to bear arms but, to the extreme end of the argument, as the name itself implies the constitution can be amended (however unpopular that would be) to remove or amend that right. Guns could be taken out of circulation and melted, criminals could be dissuaded from using firearms in the commission of their crimes by severe enough additional penalties for such actions (e.g. 5 years extra confinement with hard labour)… etc, etc

As you’ll know from previous discussion, I’m not personally in favour of prohibition anywhere… but I certainly favour restrictions on types (that are not deactivated) that can be owned and by whom. I know ‘guns don’t kill people, people do’… guns do, however, make it so much easier for people so inclined to do so. I don’t know about you, but I’ve never heard of a drive by knifing, for example, or a mass killing in a theatre by knife.

1.Most of what I’ve been seeing has been what would/should be happening versus what statistical data shows what’s happening. What people would see as common sense of what the criminals would do if firearms were all legalized(and conceal&carry) versus what the statistics show. I admit, what you say is common sense does seem logical. But the other side’s common sense is logical as well if you take a different look and/or stance at it. The big difference is probably that(at least what I’ve found searching myself), at least in the U.S., the statistics show simply that gun control doesn’t work, in comparison to nearby areas with less gun control. Most of the time the statistics I find that show the “benefits” of gun control are simply spinned one way or another, comparing apples to oranges, being selective in their statistics(Like saying the gun control lowered a specific violent crime, but a second look reveals total crime skyrocketed). Also, I found your paragraph a bit rude and spiteful, and just copying and altering his own paragraph really does not advance your stance at all, if anything it did the opposite.

2.Gun control often does not start out to be gun prohibition, but it’s also a tool to prohibit guns. Likewise hammers, wood and nails do not start out as a building, but you can use it as a tool to craft it into one. Too many statistics are simply spinned on by the media as if gun control works and gun ownership causes crimes and other things like that. Surveys often show the opposite, but the media doesn’t have to actually show this.
You never hear about the CPC people who actually stop many robbery and murder attempts, but you almost never hear about these. And this is not because it’s not happening.
Here’s a link I found: http://www.tbeckett.net/articles/guns/2008/08/04/gun-control.xhtml

3.This would simply not be effective. Bombs aren’t exactly legal, are they? There’s plenty of people in the U.S. illegally making bombs, sadly. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to create your own gun, you’d have to be pretty smart, but you could still make your own firearms if all the guns in the world were melted, because criminals could simply learn how to do it. I agree on the additional penalties, however, for all criminals.

4.It’s a simple as you can’t just take away firearms from everyone. I don’t think I need to discuss that.

 
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Originally posted by Darkruler2005:

How many facts does it take to actually show the fallacy of gun-control?

So if gun-control fails (countries with freedom of gun ownership have lower, relative violent crimes than countries which have gun control), then this must mean Americans are violent people. (America has relatively more violent crime than the Netherlands, per 100k inhabitants.)

I’m not sure where you are getting your figures for crime in America. Violent crime in America has steadily declined for decades now. I don’t know how posters are coming up with America being such a violent country.

I did some searching and to be honest, there is not much out there that just says this or that about the levels of crime for the US as a whole. I did come across and interview with Dr. John R. Lott. Lott is not just another book author, but a Research Scholar.

Armed with top-notch credentials (including stints at Stanford, Rice, UCLA, Wharton, Cornell, the University of Chicago, and Yale), Lott took on the entrenched anti-gun bias of the ivory tower with meticulous scholarship. His best-selling 1998 book, “More Guns, Less Crime,” provided analysis of FBI crime data that showed a groundbreaking correlation between concealed-weapons laws and reduced violent crime rates.

Interview on firearms:
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html/

 
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Originally posted by JohnRulz:

Wow, two major shootings this year! And only a month apart. If we can squeeze 4 or 5 more before the year ends, we might have a chance of seriously considering gun control. We might even be able to get away with two really big ones, but if there are fewer than 100 dead before the year ends, we will maintain status quo. School starts up again soon, so we’ll see how that turns out.

We have gotten our share of fruitcakes this month. All the more reason for some of us to be armed.

 
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I’m not sure where you are getting your figures for crime in America. Violent crime in America has steadily declined for decades now. I don’t know how posters are coming up with America being such a violent country.

America has relatively more violent crime than the Netherlands, per 100k inhabitants.

 
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One country out of how many? You are a different culture. What if we compare all of the countries, such as Africa, Brazil, or Argentina. All have extremely high violent crime rates.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

One country out of how many? You are a different culture. What if we compare all of the countries, such as Africa, Brazil, or Argentina. All have extremely high violent crime rates.

Compared to most of Europe, really.

Honestly though, the US does have one of the lowest violent crime rates in the Americas. It’s only when you start to include Europe and Asia that it looks bad.


Originally posted by ZombiestookmyTV:
Originally posted by ZombiestookmyTV:
Originally posted by ZombiestookmyTV:
Originally posted by ZombiestookmyTV:

You know,Americans can just own nonlethal weapons.Instead of guns,like Tazers,or sleeping darts.

Because no one responding to your post means you should just spam it instead.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

One country out of how many? You are a different culture. What if we compare all of the countries, such as Africa, Brazil, or Argentina. All have extremely high violent crime rates.

Which culture is the US more like? Western Europe or South America, Africa, Asia? Which gun figures do you more closely match with? Certainly not Western Europe.

 
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The UK isn’t that far behind America Ketsy and if you divide up the little countries in the UK you will find your violent crimes vary as well. There are fruitcakes in every country. Drugs and dealers are in every country. Gangs and other misfits will also be found everywhere. Where you have elements like these you have violent crime. What many don’t’ realize is that a firearm is not necessary to kill a lot of people. the middle east would be a good example of a violent people who kill hundreds, if not thousands every year with bombs. Violence can be found anywhere, in any country.

 
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jhco snip

I like how you completely dodged what the statistics say.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

The UK isn’t that far behind America Ketsy and if you divide up the little countries in the UK you will find your violent crimes vary as well. There are fruitcakes in every country. Drugs and dealers are in every country. Gangs and other misfits will also be found everywhere. Where you have elements like these you have violent crime. What many don’t’ realize is that a firearm is not necessary to kill a lot of people. the middle east would be a good example of a violent people who kill hundreds, if not thousands every year with bombs. Violence can be found anywhere, in any country.

You are right jhco violence can be found in any country…but its the stats that are interesting. Gun violence in the US is higher than any other Western country.
Gun ownership is higher in the US
Gun laws are the laxest in the US…
..and once again gun violence is higher in the US.
Coincidence?

 
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If you have been following the statistics, it seems neither side accepts the others statistics. Tell me this, isn’t what I told Ketsy the truth? You aren’t going to tell me that Europe and Asia have none of these problems are you?

 
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But Asia’s and Europes problems are nowhere near as big as yours. Both Asia and Europe seem to have their problems under relative control.

As for not accepting the stats. My sources are from governments and the UN.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

The UK isn’t that far behind America Ketsy and if you divide up the little countries in the UK you will find your violent crimes vary as well. There are fruitcakes in every country. Drugs and dealers are in every country. Gangs and other misfits will also be found everywhere. Where you have elements like these you have violent crime. What many don’t’ realize is that a firearm is not necessary to kill a lot of people. the middle east would be a good example of a violent people who kill hundreds, if not thousands every year with bombs. Violence can be found anywhere, in any country.

In this case, “isn’t that far behind” really means “around a fifth as much.”

I never claimed that gun control was some kind of complete cure for violent crime. No one rational claims that. It’s a bizarre strawman that some people use.

Edit:

Zombie, repeating the same point is only effective if someone responds to the point. Otherwise, you’re just making yourself appear to be obnoxious.

 
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Originally posted by ZombiestookmyTV:

Its called repeating the same point.

Nobody wants to hear it, zombie, so repeating it four times is spammy, and unnecessary.

 
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Once again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
According to this Palestine is saver then the US. The Netherlands only have 1/4 of the murder rate. So does the united kingdom france germany has even less then that. If you believe these are only a few countries can you point out a few countries that have a similar economic situations as the US and has a higher murder rate? You can use the list or attack the data on which it is based.

 
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Thijser. am I missing something here? I take it Northern America means the US and Canada which would mean they broke Europe into 4 pieces.

UNODC murder rates most recent year

------Sub-region---------Rate-Count--------Region

Northern America------3.9--13558------Americas-----Total=13558

Eastern Europe--------6.4--19072------Europe

Northern Europe-------1.5--1432-------Europe

Southern Europe------1.1--1316-------Europe

Western Europe-------1.0--1852-------Europe--------Total=23672

 
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It helps if you go to this instead, where it actually breaks it down by country.

To summarize the results, the US has an intentional murder rate of 4.2. This is far worse than the UK (1.2), Switzerland (0.7), Spain (0.8), Germany (0.8), Italy (0.9), and Sweden (1.0). Of course, that is just a few.