Why do the liberal Democrats want to take guns away from Americans? page 199

5864 posts

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You sound like Karma. Don’t post if you won’t sit there and take a bashing. Come on Ketsy, you have seen the so called logic I have been enduring.

I would never suggest people put up with abuse. If you don’t like the way he responds, ignore it or flag it.

Of course, criminals aren’t afraid of us armed citizens, yet I gave links that says they are.

Except crime still happens to armed citizens. Being armed isn’t a panacea to crime.

I get links from Wiki as a reply, links that supposedly use foggy math that you have to have a mathematician decipher. Don’t use simple math, that would be too simple and be legible to the average reader of the figures.

Supposedly? While I’m not the best judge, I think the math is very straight forward. donseptico already covered this, though.

You haven’t seen all of the bashing in the so called debates on America? Every time there is some odd subject, America must change. It gets old listening to how bad America is by these people, Ketsy. I decided to bite back and they didn’t like it.

I suppose I haven’t seen these debates. I honestly don’t see a great deal of ‘America Bashing,’ but I also don’t look for it.

When I do see it, it’s usually in the comment section of an article. And those people are freaking nuts.

 
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What really bothers me is unpatriotic boobs who take their side because they can’t fit in with society in a normal way.

Really? Foreigners can’t argue because it isn’t their country and those Americans that argue against you are “unpatriotic” and “abnormal”? Is that how you dismiss all logical arguments about crap happening in your country?

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Overreact? Really? You think I should listen to you guys rant night after night without calling you out? LOL!

No, just that I get a little tired of your same schpeel about how everyone hates America because they don’t agree with you.

You know exactly what I’m talking about. Stop trying to dance around my statement.

What’s there to dance around, ever-lasting hyperbole?

It sounds like they are sure America is a horrible country, but they sure like our dollars.

And you know this all… How, again?

Of course it is about personal arms.

Then don’t imply that you want to wage war with someone because you want to keep all your guns, no matter how unnecessary they might be.

Why should Americans have a God given right they don’t? How fair is that?

That makes… What?

Then stay in your country and quit using anything we mericans invented.

Just in case you didn’t know.

I love the smell of freedom in the morning. It smells like…. gun leather.

Strange, that also smells like strong-arming.

See? I can make a horrible argument too.

 
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Originally posted by thijser:

It’s not that they aren’t afraid ever heard of the concept of a cornered rat? That’s every criminal in the US who is caught. You might have the data that says they are scared but we are showing you data that shows that those scared criminals are in no way less dangerous then criminals who have the feeling they are relatively save.
Let’s do a though experiment for some reason you have to steal in order to feed yourself. You know a high number of people is armed in the US, so do you take a gun with you if you go and steal something? And when you see someone from the corner of you eye do you open fire? Knowing fully well that there is a good chance he is aiming for you right now?
Now say you know almost certainly he is not armed and you have a chance to jump out of a window. You know the extra attention that murder draws from the police and you think you can easily get away while only carrying half your loot. Do you see why guns increase crime? Now if you are a good shot might have a 60% chance of shooting him before he shoots you. Is that worth it? Is a 40% chance to get shot worth a laptop, some cash and some jewelry? Especially when you know that you can get insurance for the same amount of money it takes to maintain that gun and your ability to shoot (how much is the ammo, the shooting range ext.?)
And if you decide you aren’t going to listen to foreigners then ignore people from the US then you are clearly showing that your idea of democracy and freedom is “whatever I want and else come and take it (loads up a gun)”. With that attitude alone I can see why the US has such a high murder rate.

And bite back is just by stating that al foreigners are not allowed to give arguments. If you don’t want to hear from people from others parts of the world perhaps you shouldn’t go to an international forum. And if you have a problem with something in other countries perhaps you should just start a topic on that (if you can back it up with data ext.). And do I need to point out that tread title? This topic is about why some people think guns shouldn’t be in the US so we are giving the reasons these people think guns should be banned.

I never claimed they weren’t dangerous, they are. What my link showed is that criminals would rather go up against the police than an armed citizen. the reason is an LEO is supposed to arrest rather than just kill the criminal. Armed citizens don’t have this restriction and criminals know this.

There will always be crime in any country that has human beings. You will always have those who think they can make a quick buck by just taking it, or those whose mental incapability causes them to kill for the sake of killing. You also have crimes of passion.

Your experiment is flawed. First of all, in an encounter, you do not just walk up to a criminal. You conceal yourself. You do not have the power to just shoot a criminal without having repercussions yourself. the only time you are allowed to kill the intruder is when you feel you or your loved ones are in danger of physical harm or death. If the criminal is only stealing, which would be hard to determine in the dark, you are not allowed to use deadly force. If that criminal is armed and aiming the gun at you, you might as well take that 40% chance because he is threatening your life and possibly the lives of your families.

I think this is where this discussion has gone off course. You anti-gunners don’t know our laws and what is and isn’t allowed when a citizen is armed. You assume we just shoot anyone who angers us and we don’t. We who carry are very aware of the laws of our state and follow those laws. We don’t kill just to kill. We carry with a defensive posture.

I am not against foreigners giving an opinion. It is when they rag on the United States as if we are the whipping boy of the world. Everyone likes the country they were born and raised in and when you start badmouthing a country in every thread that allows it, it gets really old fast. If you are discussing a subject, discuss it and stop with the constant criticism of the people and their lifestyles. We can bad mouth our government and our Constitution because it is ours. Don’t think we allow others to do so without calling them on it.

 
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Originally posted by Ketsy:

You sound like Karma. Don’t post if you won’t sit there and take a bashing. Come on Ketsy, you have seen the so called logic I have been enduring.

I would never suggest people put up with abuse. If you don’t like the way he responds, ignore it or flag it.

Of course, criminals aren’t afraid of us armed citizens, yet I gave links that says they are.

Except crime still happens to armed citizens. Being armed isn’t a panacea to crime.

I get links from Wiki as a reply, links that supposedly use foggy math that you have to have a mathematician decipher. Don’t use simple math, that would be too simple and be legible to the average reader of the figures.

Supposedly? While I’m not the best judge, I think the math is very straight forward. donseptico already covered this, though.

You haven’t seen all of the bashing in the so called debates on America? Every time there is some odd subject, America must change. It gets old listening to how bad America is by these people, Ketsy. I decided to bite back and they didn’t like it.

I suppose I haven’t seen these debates. I honestly don’t see a great deal of ‘America Bashing,’ but I also don’t look for it.

When I do see it, it’s usually in the comment section of an article. And those people are freaking nuts.

Yes, crime still happens and being armed is not a panacea, but being armed gives you a fighting chance at surviving an encounter. Forget the math, I’m too old to argue something over my head. Oh yes, America is the country to hate. We do nothing right. I think what bothers me most is when they associate the people with what the government does at times. We don’t always agree with what our government does either.

 
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Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by jhco50:

Overreact? Really? You think I should listen to you guys rant night after night without calling you out? LOL!

No, just that I get a little tired of your same schpeel about how everyone hates America because they don’t agree with you.

You know exactly what I’m talking about. Stop trying to dance around my statement.

What’s there to dance around, ever-lasting hyperbole?

It sounds like they are sure America is a horrible country, but they sure like our dollars.

And you know this all… How, again?

Of course it is about personal arms.

Then don’t imply that you want to wage war with someone because you want to keep all your guns, no matter how unnecessary they might be.

Why should Americans have a God given right they don’t? How fair is that?

That makes… What?

Then stay in your country and quit using anything we mericans invented.

Just in case you didn’t know.

I love the smell of freedom in the morning. It smells like…. gun leather.

Strange, that also smells like strong-arming.

See? I can make a horrible argument too.

Tenco, I don’t know why I am easy on you. Sometimes you are pretty raw, but I guess I just like you. that being said, you know as well as I do that although we are international, America is the country others love to hate. It doesn’t matter if they agree with me or not. I know this because I read the posts too, just like you my friend.

You know, I will keep my guns regardless, but I would love to be able to educate those who have no knowledge of firearms. We gun owners don’t just own them because the kill. We compete against others (in many cases for money), hunt, and a myriad of other uses. Some owners never even fire their firearms, they collect them for the beauty, both aesthetic and mechanical.

The firearm in this picture is an 1873 Colt Army 2nd Generation…It is unfired and has never been cocked. It is missing the grips, loading gate, ejector rod, and trigger as it has just been engraved. These parts will be engraved and reunited with the firearm before being sent back to the owner. It will be encased in a fancy wooden case with accessories and will never be fired.

All I did earlier is extend an invitation which it seems no one was willing to accept. Forgive me for being a good Samaritan.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Tenco, I don’t know why I am easy on you.

Because you love me.

Sometimes you are pretty raw, but I guess I just like you.

See what I mean, I’m always right.

that being said, you know as well as I do that although we are international,

Wait, “international?”

America is the country others love to hate.

Then explain why there are still people immigrating here for a better chance at life.

It doesn’t matter if they agree with me or not. I know this because I read the posts too, just like you my friend.

No, actually I just hit the quote button and find periods as I go on my merry way.

You know, I will keep my guns regardless, but I would love to be able to educate those who have no knowledge of firearms.

Where was this “love” a few pages ago?

We gun owners don’t just own them because the kill. We compete against others (in many cases for money), hunt, and a myriad of other uses.

Yes, and I’m fine with those, however I, like Flabby, still don’t see the point of having half an arsenal just for “protection.”

Some owners never even fire their firearms, they collect them for the beauty, both aesthetic and mechanical.

Please don’t tell me you’re getting a gun boner now…

The firearm in this picture is an 1873 Colt Army 2nd Generation…It is unfired and has never been cocked.

Did you know?: Faberge eggs don’t get cracked for use in food?

It is missing the grips, loading gate, ejector rod, and trigger as it has just been engraved.

It’s a miracle if it even shoots at all…

These parts will be engraved and reunited with the firearm before being sent back to the owner. It will be encased in a fancy wooden case with accessories and will never be fired.

That’s great, except this isn’t relevant to what’s being discussed.

 
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Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by jhco50:

Tenco, I don’t know why I am easy on you.

Because you love me.

Sometimes you are pretty raw, but I guess I just like you.

See what I mean, I’m always right.

that being said, you know as well as I do that although we are international,

Wait, “international?”

America is the country others love to hate.

Then explain why there are still people immigrating here for a better chance at life.

It doesn’t matter if they agree with me or not. I know this because I read the posts too, just like you my friend.

No, actually I just hit the quote button and find periods as I go on my merry way.

You know, I will keep my guns regardless, but I would love to be able to educate those who have no knowledge of firearms.

Where was this “love” a few pages ago?

We gun owners don’t just own them because the kill. We compete against others (in many cases for money), hunt, and a myriad of other uses.

Yes, and I’m fine with those, however I, like Flabby, still don’t see the point of having half an arsenal just for “protection.”

Some owners never even fire their firearms, they collect them for the beauty, both aesthetic and mechanical.

Please don’t tell me you’re getting a gun boner now…

The firearm in this picture is an 1873 Colt Army 2nd Generation…It is unfired and has never been cocked.

Did you know?: Faberge eggs don’t get cracked for use in food?

It is missing the grips, loading gate, ejector rod, and trigger as it has just been engraved.

It’s a miracle if it even shoots at all…

These parts will be engraved and reunited with the firearm before being sent back to the owner. It will be encased in a fancy wooden case with accessories and will never be fired.

That’s great, except this isn’t relevant to what’s being discussed.

Maybe you remind me of someone I once knew. You aren’t always right, just raw, LOL. Not every individual hates America. Those who can see the opportunities in this country want to be a part of it and are willing to go through the red tape to accomplish it.

I gave up on educating those with little knowledge or the will to learn. The arsenal you speak of is the need to try different firearms and calibers. Remember those collectors? Some collectors don’t just collect them but enjoy shooting them. Every caliber and every type of firearms is a little different, offering a different experience at the range. The Colt pictured above is a Single Action and is fired as the Colts of old…the hammer must be cocked every time before it will fire. Smith & Wesson’s are Double Action and fire both single action and double action. In double action you pull the trigger and it performs both the cocking and firing of the revolver. Of course the same types of actions are used in semi-auto pistols, except after the first shot they cock the hammer and reload a fresh round. Right there you have four basic experiences. From there you can expand to many different configurations. This is not to mention shotguns and rifles.

Oh, that engraved Colt will be able to shoot when the engraver is done. The missing parts will be engraved before they are installed. The grips will probably be some exotic material that you or I could never afford. It is a beautiful renditions, eh?

 
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That’s a beautiful gun! It really is.
But it’s not the one being used in mass murders.
It’s not the one that people want regulated.
It’s very lovely though…but I think you’re using it more for emotive reasons. Because it’s not the weapon that most people have in their house. It’s a collectors item.

 
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Oh, but it is Flabby. Anti-gunners want to do away with all guns. The gun in the picture is just as lethal as any other. What is the difference between it and the S&W? The looks? It is the same thing with all firearms. There are only so many action types that civilians own and none of them are current military weapons. None of them are actual assault weapons, but they look the part as so are considered evil and deadly by those who don’t like weapons.

The AR-15 you mentioned earlier in this discussion. It is a semi-auto rifle chambered in the .223 caliber. Is it an assault weapon? No, it is just a semi-auto rifle, but it looks evil and therefore the media calls it an assault rifle. They do this to scare people. The guy who killed those people in the theater could have used explosives just as easy, if not easier. I won’t tell you how on the internet, but it is simple to make a bomb. The Iraqi’s have made them the entire war.

So what happens if we did away with firearms in general? Well, the black market will pick up the slack, people will make their own firearms, other means to kill will surface. You can’t cure the problem of violent crime by taking the guns away. The problem will still be there. Besides, give the world another few years and we will be using lasers and stun guns.

 
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Anti-gunners want to do away with all guns.

Since you’re not replying to my posts any way, I can just say this is a ridiculous viewpoint to have. No, they don’t. A part may, a part may not.

 
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Oh, but it is Flabby. Anti-gunners want to do away with all guns. The gun in the picture is just as lethal as any other. What is the difference between it and the S&W? The looks? It is the same thing with all firearms.

Can you name a country that has done away with all guns, bar none? I’m thinking no, but I’m sure you’ll find us an example.

Edit:

More than that, can you name a single credible/respected group in America that wants to do the same?

 
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Most anti gun laws would either ask you for a permit for that gun and/or ask you to do something to it that it can’t be fired anymore (take out a vital part put something deep in het barrel ext.). And I can see at least one solution where you will be allowed to keep your guns at least a while longer: if al of them are fitted with a gps tracker and are put in a large shooting facility which they are not allowed to leave. That way any gun that leaves can be tracked down and you can keep on shooting on that range (of course this facility would need at least one permanent guard as well as a system that warns if one if it’s trackers is destroyed).

 
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Originally posted by Ketsy:

Oh, but it is Flabby. Anti-gunners want to do away with all guns. The gun in the picture is just as lethal as any other. What is the difference between it and the S&W? The looks? It is the same thing with all firearms.

Can you name a country that has done away with all guns, bar none? I’m thinking no, but I’m sure you’ll find us an example.

Edit:

More than that, can you name a single credible/respected group in America that wants to do the same?

Closest I could get was Venezuela although I don’t know if that law has come into effect yet, and it appears to only prohibit citzen ownership (although private security companies can still buy arms/ammunition so there’s a potential workaround).

 
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I knew I should have specified “In Western Europe or North America.” Darn.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Oh, but it is Flabby. Anti-gunners want to do away with all guns. The gun in the picture is just as lethal as any other. What is the difference between it and the S&W? The looks? It is the same thing with all firearms. There are only so many action types that civilians own and none of them are current military weapons. None of them are actual assault weapons, but they look the part as so are considered evil and deadly by those who don’t like weapons.

The AR-15 you mentioned earlier in this discussion. It is a semi-auto rifle chambered in the .223 caliber. Is it an assault weapon? No, it is just a semi-auto rifle, but it looks evil and therefore the media calls it an assault rifle. They do this to scare people. The guy who killed those people in the theater could have used explosives just as easy, if not easier. I won’t tell you how on the internet, but it is simple to make a bomb. The Iraqi’s have made them the entire war.

So what happens if we did away with firearms in general? Well, the black market will pick up the slack, people will make their own firearms, other means to kill will surface. You can’t cure the problem of violent crime by taking the guns away. The problem will still be there. Besides, give the world another few years and we will be using lasers and stun guns.

Ok, so you can see a link between a beautifully crafted historical antique colt pistol and a modern mass produced semi-automatic weapon?
It’s funny that we are still even arguing over this after all the irrefutable evidence that has been presented time and time again that there is a gun homicide problem in the US that is not seen in any oher Western country.

For me it would be logical to allow such collector items as the one above to be collected, it would logical to allow hunters to purchase the neccesary guns they require to hunt, it’s legal to allow people to bare arms as your second amendment requires. But it’s not logical to allow people to horde guns, it’s not logical to allow the general populace access to semi-automatics if they have no need for them. (I still think a hunter using an AR-15 would have to be such a lousy hunter.)

Your argument about explosives is not very convincing…people don’t use explosives because guns are much easier to purchase legally and much easier to use. I don’t think you’ve thought out that argument very well.
But hey lets imagine that the second amendment did mention explosives and they were legal to purchase, they most porbably would be used to blow up people and kill…would you have a problem banning them? Restricting them? Regulating them? (I personally think that the second amendment needs amending. It’s outdated.)

You maybe right that you can’t cure violent crime by taking away guns…but you can reduce homicide by making it harder to own guns. Once again the stats prove that.

 
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Your argument about explosives is not very convincing…people don’t use explosives because guns are much easier to purchase legally and much easier to use. I don’t think you’ve thought out that argument very well.

Actually, this is a point I tend to make as well. People who commit premeditated mass murders, such as the one that happened in Colorado, would likely not be stopped by guns being harder to acquire. They would find other ways to accomplish similar things.

As for restricting them, explosives can be homemade. In fact, his apartment was already wired with them as booby traps.

You maybe right that you can’t cure violent crime by taking away guns…but you can reduce homicide by making it harder to own guns. Once again the stats prove that.

Actually, I’m fairly sure the stats that we’ve been discussing lately just show that the US has a higher intentional homicide rate than other Western nations, the sole exception being Eastern Europe.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:
You guys act like you are the perfect nations and America is a horrible, violent place and yet I doubt you have ever set foot on American soil. You sit in your computer chair listening to all of the babel on the internet, as if that is always accurate, and then jack your jaw.

I have to bring up a point of contention here. You have never set foot on Californian soil, but you feel the inclination to criticize it based on what you’ve heard and read, no?

I gave up on educating those with little knowledge or the will to learn.

No, you haven’t. You are still here and enjoy lively debate.

 
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Yes Flabby, I can link all types of guns together because I know how they work. You are trying to argue to an old timer with lots and lots of knowledge on this subject. Did you know, not counting actual military firearms, there are 7 basic types of actions that cover every civilian arm made? I’m including single shot firearms in that statement. None of these will fire fully automatic.

You ask me how I can link the Colt SA to let’s say a Colt 1911 semi-auto handgun. They both use the same principles when firing. The trigger is pulled, the hammer falls striking the firing pin which in turn strikes the primer on the cartridge. This ignites the powder in the cartridge which builds pressure and launches a bullet out of the barrel. This is the same thing all firearms do. I don’t care if it is a British .303 rifle or a .38 special revolver.

So when you argue we need to get rid of handguns and keep rifles for the hunters, I know your knowledge base is limited. Why is it that you and others are down on handguns when the theater shooter had a rifle and a shotgun he used as well? Let me ask this. I have shot both rifles and handguns since I was about 20 years old. I can honestly say I am a reasonably good shot. Which would you want me to aim at you at say 50 yards, a .38 Special revolver or my hunting rifle? I will tell you now, I don’t miss much with the rifle so if I were you, choose the sidearm. Yet it is the sidearm you are afraid of. I don’t understand this.

You are afraid of the firearms, but not bombs. This is something else that doesn’t make sense to me. I can make a bomb out of many common materials that could kill many at one time. The bomb in this link was made out of common fertilizer, legal to purchase. Yet for some reason, this doesn’t bother you. Please explain that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

Ahhhh, let’s’ rewrite that pesky 2nd Amendment. Yes, it doesn’t matter what it is there for, Americans don’t need that damn amendment to be sheep for the tyranny. You personally decided our 2nd Amendment is outdated. So kind of you.

I know I’m right, You will not reduce homicides by taking guns away from the honest citizen. Why is it you are willing to punish the honest citizen for the bad deeds of the criminal? Do you honestly think the criminal is going to all of a sudden see the errors of his ways and follow the law? You would be really naive to think that. Sure, let’s disarm the victim and leave them at the mercy of the criminal. What great logic.

 
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Not to get too technical on you, but not all firearms act that way. I’d agree with you that all legal civilian firearms do, but the military has some pretty ingenious ways of propelling metal into enemies. I’m prior military as well.

 
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Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:
Originally posted by jhco50:
You guys act like you are the perfect nations and America is a horrible, violent place and yet I doubt you have ever set foot on American soil. You sit in your computer chair listening to all of the babel on the internet, as if that is always accurate, and then jack your jaw.

I have to bring up a point of contention here. You have never set foot on Californian soil, but you feel the inclination to criticize it based on what you’ve heard and read, no?

I gave up on educating those with little knowledge or the will to learn.

No, you haven’t. You are still here and enjoy lively debate.

Ummm, what did I criticize now? I’m pretty sure I didn’t mention California. I’m sure it is sunny out there and we are cooling a bit. I’m sure I have all of the extra appliances in my trailer to get rid of tomorrow…hint, hint. :)

Yeah, I guess you are right on that last sentence, I am slow to give up. But we have some really good people in here now, LOL.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

Not to get too technical on you, but not all firearms act that way. I’d agree with you that all legal civilian firearms do, but the military has some pretty ingenious ways of propelling metal into enemies. I’m prior military as well.

Yes, that is why I didn’t bring them into the conversation. Did you know the are working on that magnetic cannon again? How did you like the M4, I heard it gets hot fast and quits working. Did you experience that?

 
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But we have some really good people in here now

I’m not sure. I’ve seen some pretty vile and nonsensical stuff in the last couple of days here. Not sure if I want to completely settle in.

As for military weaponry, I worked Armaments for B-1s, B-2s, B-52s, F-16s, and A-10s. The one weapon that comes to mind that doesn’t use a hammer to fire a bullet is the M61A1, or M61 Vulcan.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:
None of these will fire fully automatic.

Not unless you do it wrong.

Ahhhh, let’s’ rewrite that pesky 2nd Amendment. Yes, it doesn’t matter what it is there for, Americans don’t need that damn amendment to be sheep for the tyranny. You personally decided our 2nd Amendment is outdated. So kind of you.

Uhh, I’m pretty sure that you’re taking what he’s said in the wrong way.

Like the part about rewrite = tyranny or whatever. (Even though you would only get so far if the U.S actually did try and go all Nazi regime on its citizens.)

I know I’m right, You will not reduce homicides by taking guns away from the honest citizen.

No, but would you really want the honest citizen with a gun to get drunk?

Why is it you are willing to punish the honest citizen for the bad deeds of the criminal?

So wait, not being able to arm a family of three with pistols and rifles is a punishment?

Do you honestly think the criminal is going to all of a sudden see the errors of his ways and follow the law? You would be really naive to think that. Sure, let’s disarm the victim and leave them at the mercy of the criminal. What great logic.

Y’know, there are still several ways to keep yourself from getting shot, while not actually shooting something.

Originally posted by jhco50:

Yes, that is why I didn’t bring them into the conversation. Did you know the are working on that magnetic cannon again?

You mean they’re getting the rail gun idea up again?

Kewl.

How did you like the M4, I heard it gets hot fast and quits working. Did you experience that?

I think there are other, better guns that were made that made the M4 slightly obsolete. In certain regards, at least.

 
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Originally posted by tenco1:

Y’know, there are still several ways to keep yourself from getting shot, while not actually shooting something.

I like watching ninja movies too, but this is reality we are talking about. In an actual shootout, in actual reality, you can’t round house kick the gun out of the assailant’s hand, Chuck Norris style.