did anyone really win ww2 page 2

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Originally posted by Mylar:

I think the key german mistake was …

Actualy there was some painful mistakes that germany did, like for example:
1. Forging an alliance with the worst possible allies, one declared the war to one of the most potent nations of the time and the other got defeated by himself
2.Betreaying and destroying the alliance with russia
3. Trying to take moscu ending the winning strike that the german army had

Also about who win the war, I would say USA, as it got richer by selling weapons and thus promoting the war in which it declares itself to be the hero of that war (and people bealive it!)

 
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Originally posted by alexgar:
Originally posted by Mylar:

I think the key german mistake was …

Actualy there was some painful mistakes that germany did, like for example:
1. Forging an alliance with the worst possible allies, one declared the war to one of the most potent nations of the time and the other got defeated by himself
2.Betreaying and destroying the alliance with russia
3. Trying to take moscu ending the winning strike that the german army had

Also about who win the war, I would say USA, as it got richer by selling weapons and thus promoting the war in which it declares itself to be the hero of that war (and people bealive it!)

some alliances arn’t about getting the best countries on your side, Germany’s allies were to secure its borders, so they would only have to fight a one front war. (thanks to Hitler, didnt work out that way)

now the alliance with Russia, wasnt a “we help you, you help us treaty”, it was a “stay the hell out of our way, and we dont kick your ass”, treaty, and the alliance would have been broken by Stalin, Hitler just broke it first, he intened to invade Russia the entire time, but he also intened to beat England, then move everyone to Russia.

Again, it wasnt Moscow, he never made it to Moscow, and never truly tried, it was Stalingrad that cause the failure in the East.

 
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Ok, the Axis signed a treaty clearly stating we won. We bombed Japan to death. Germany was destroyed. I’m not sure about Italy but it was probably destroyed as well.

You guys keep talking about the aftereffects of the war, and the depression. The hell with the aftereffects. The Axis surrendered, the Allies won, that is the meaning of victory in war. End of discussion.

 
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Originally posted by Zzzip50:

Ok, the Axis signed a treaty clearly stating we won. We bombed Japan to death. Germany was destroyed. I’m not sure about Italy but it was probably destroyed as well.

You guys keep talking about the aftereffects of the war, and the depression. The hell with the aftereffects. The Axis surrendered, the Allies won, that is the meaning of victory in war. End of discussion.

italy was the first to fall, during Operation Baytown, and Husky, Genral Patton’s 8th Army, and Montgomey’s (i think 6th Army), advanced up the Italian Peninsula, capturing vital ports, but German troops who continued to slow Allied Advances. Even after italy surrendered.

Also i think the topic shifted more to hwat country really won the war, most people think the U.S won the war single handed…

 
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Well then, I usually don’t prefer to read through entire pages to see what the topic shifted to. Unless something amazing happens during the topic, most peoplewould answer the original post

 
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most people think the U.S won the war single handed…

Only the ignorant.

 
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Originally posted by Zzzip50:

Well then, I usually don’t prefer to read through entire pages to see what the topic shifted to. Unless something amazing happens during the topic, most peoplewould answer the original post

yes, there is no argument there, the Allies won for sure!

Originally posted by Darkruler2005:

most people think the U.S won the war single handed…

Only the ignorant.

yes, i truly think that the British did more then us, in both WWI, and WWII, the Americans were just that extra “boost” we came in late, we did alot to help, but we wernt the deciding factor.

 
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The biggest winner was Stalin. He got massive concessions from the US and England; including most of Eastern Europe. Of course, it was also Russia that bore the worst of the cost. About 75% of the German divisions were smashed in the fighting against Russia, and their air force was decimated there as well.

The US did essentially win the war in the Pacific vs. Japan. Japan was primarily defeated by the effective naval blockade and was ready to surrender long before the atomic bombs.

 
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Originally posted by AaronB:

The biggest winner was Stalin. He got massive concessions from the US and England; including most of Eastern Europe. Of course, it was also Russia that bore the worst of the cost. About 75% of the German divisions were smashed in the fighting against Russia, and their air force was decimated there as well.

The US did essentially win the war in the Pacific vs. Japan. Japan was primarily defeated by the effective naval blockade and was ready to surrender long before the atomic bombs.

Not to mention, Russia was slaughtered by the Germans. Big win!

There’s this quarry called the Ajimushkai (I forgot the exact spelling, but look it up) quarry, where around 10k civillians and soldiers were taking refuge under ground. Well, the Germans found them. Some 100 days later, the gassing, tunnel fighting, and bombing ceased. 6 Russians walked out alive.

They may have stopped the Germans, but look at their casualties, their economy (not that the economy of a country being attacked is well) and the hardships of people.

When services ended in the Russian army on the front lines, you were forced to walk all the way back home through the Siberian desert without any aid. I’m sure you could understand a lot of people didn’t make it home.

 
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Originally posted by AaronB:

The biggest winner was Stalin. He got massive concessions from the US and England; including most of Eastern Europe. Of course, it was also Russia that bore the worst of the cost. About 75% of the German divisions were smashed in the fighting against Russia, and their air force was decimated there as well.

The US did essentially win the war in the Pacific vs. Japan. Japan was primarily defeated by the effective naval blockade and was ready to surrender long before the atomic bombs.

The Allies won! all of them! U.S, Russia, England, France, China, Australia, Canada, Phillipines, and the various fighters in Poland, Norway, and every other country! doesnt matter how bad their economy was, how much of their country got bombed, they won (at least their side did)

Stalin was far from the biggest winner…. heavy debt, most of his countries industry was in ruins…. im not sure if 75% of the germans were really killed there, but what percentage do you think the Russians had to lose, to kill that?
and you get eastern Europe… the countries that were bombed to hell! \

Now, the war in the pacific, was mostly a American fight, but the British were fighting a hell of alot against the Japs to, and even the Australia helped alot.

as for the part about Japan being ready to surrender before the A-bombs, that is complete bull crap! they were not going to surrender before the bombs, they wernt gonna surrender after the first bomb, and they almost failed to surrender after the second, their war council, or whatever they had voted, and it came up a tie, and the emperor (or whatever) decided to surrender! (smart man…)

if they didnt surrender, we would of had to invade the Japanese homeland… we said we had tons of more bombs, ready to drop, we were bluffing, it would take months to get another one…

 
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Originally posted by AirmanAlex:

The Allies won! all of them! U.S, Russia, England, France, China, Australia, Canada, Phillipines, and the various fighters in Poland, Norway, and every other country! doesnt matter how bad their economy was, how much of their country got bombed, they won (at least their side did)

Sorry to pop your bubble but not all allies landed on the winning side. Poland and some others got occupied by Russia. Making them some of the poorest losers of WWII.

Stalin was far from the biggest winner…. heavy debt, most of his countries industry was in ruins…. im not sure if 75% of the germans were really killed there, but what percentage do you think the Russians had to lose, to kill that?
and you get eastern Europe… the countries that were bombed to hell! \

While Russia had high losses of Manpower, their industry base was bigger at the end of the war than the beginning. They had a great influx of technological know how due to the occupation of eastern and middle European countries. The only countries really bombed to hell were Japan and Germany and both still had valuable assets left.
Stalin was a clear winner, but failed later in domestic policy.

Now, the war in the pacific, was mostly a American fight, but the British were fighting a hell of alot against the Japs to, and even the Australia helped alot.

as for the part about Japan being ready to surrender before the A-bombs, that is complete bull crap! they were not going to surrender before the bombs, they wernt gonna surrender after the first bomb, and they almost failed to surrender after the second, their war council, or whatever they had voted, and it came up a tie, and the emperor (or whatever) decided to surrender! (smart man…)

if they didnt surrender, we would of had to invade the Japanese homeland… we said we had tons of more bombs, ready to drop, we were bluffing, it would take months to get another one…

The A-bombs and the surrender of Japan are a highly controversial subject already having its own thread.

 
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Originally posted by AirmanAlex:
Originally posted by AaronB:

The biggest winner was Stalin. He got massive concessions from the US and England; including most of Eastern Europe. Of course, it was also Russia that bore the worst of the cost. About 75% of the German divisions were smashed in the fighting against Russia, and their air force was decimated there as well.

The US did essentially win the war in the Pacific vs. Japan. Japan was primarily defeated by the effective naval blockade and was ready to surrender long before the atomic bombs.

The Allies won! all of them! U.S, Russia, England, France, China, Australia, Canada, Phillipines, and the various fighters in Poland, Norway, and every other country! doesnt matter how bad their economy was, how much of their country got bombed, they won (at least their side did)

Stalin was far from the biggest winner…. heavy debt, most of his countries industry was in ruins…. im not sure if 75% of the germans were really killed there, but what percentage do you think the Russians had to lose, to kill that?
and you get eastern Europe… the countries that were bombed to hell! \

Now, the war in the pacific, was mostly a American fight, but the British were fighting a hell of alot against the Japs to, and even the Australia helped alot.

as for the part about Japan being ready to surrender before the A-bombs, that is complete bull crap! they were not going to surrender before the bombs, they wernt gonna surrender after the first bomb, and they almost failed to surrender after the second, their war council, or whatever they had voted, and it came up a tie, and the emperor (or whatever) decided to surrender! (smart man…)

if they didnt surrender, we would of had to invade the Japanese homeland… we said we had tons of more bombs, ready to drop, we were bluffing, it would take months to get another one…

We actually wouldn’t have invaded the homeland. Not sure at all where you got that from. We made an airstrike on Tokyo after both bombs had been dropped, and warned Japan that we would be nuking Tokyo if they did not submit to our power.

 
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The thing about the invasion of mainland Japan was just a justification Truman offered for why he nuked two cities full of civilians. It wasn’t necessary or seriously considered. http://www.lewrockwell.com/raico/raico40.1.html

 
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And the Jews won Israel….

 
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Does it really matter about all the post war effects? This topic is only about who won ww2. And in war, victory means the other side got obliterated/surrendered, not about who is more stable/technologically advenced/religiously tolerated/politically stable/morally correct decades after the war.

No. The axis surrendered to the allies. The allies won. That is it.

 
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Originally posted by MooseDishes:
Originally posted by AirmanAlex:
Originally posted by AaronB:

The biggest winner was Stalin. He got massive concessions from the US and England; including most of Eastern Europe. Of course, it was also Russia that bore the worst of the cost. About 75% of the German divisions were smashed in the fighting against Russia, and their air force was decimated there as well.

The US did essentially win the war in the Pacific vs. Japan. Japan was primarily defeated by the effective naval blockade and was ready to surrender long before the atomic bombs.

The Allies won! all of them! U.S, Russia, England, France, China, Australia, Canada, Phillipines, and the various fighters in Poland, Norway, and every other country! doesnt matter how bad their economy was, how much of their country got bombed, they won (at least their side did)

Stalin was far from the biggest winner…. heavy debt, most of his countries industry was in ruins…. im not sure if 75% of the germans were really killed there, but what percentage do you think the Russians had to lose, to kill that?
and you get eastern Europe… the countries that were bombed to hell! \

Now, the war in the pacific, was mostly a American fight, but the British were fighting a hell of alot against the Japs to, and even the Australia helped alot.

as for the part about Japan being ready to surrender before the A-bombs, that is complete bull crap! they were not going to surrender before the bombs, they wernt gonna surrender after the first bomb, and they almost failed to surrender after the second, their war council, or whatever they had voted, and it came up a tie, and the emperor (or whatever) decided to surrender! (smart man…)

if they didnt surrender, we would of had to invade the Japanese homeland… we said we had tons of more bombs, ready to drop, we were bluffing, it would take months to get another one…

We actually wouldn’t have invaded the homeland. Not sure at all where you got that from. We made an airstrike on Tokyo after both bombs had been dropped, and warned Japan that we would be nuking Tokyo if they did not submit to our power.

yes, we did threaten to nuke Tokyo, and every other inch of Japan, but the thing is, we were bluffing… those 2 bombs, that was all we had for about 6 months, so we would either have to fight a stalling fight for half a year, or finish it now, and invade Japan, as originally intended by F.D.R, we were all set up for that, with the airbases on okinawa.

 
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Originally posted by AirmanAlex:
Originally posted by AaronB:

The biggest winner was Stalin. He got massive concessions from the US and England; including most of Eastern Europe. Of course, it was also Russia that bore the worst of the cost. About 75% of the German divisions were smashed in the fighting against Russia, and their air force was decimated there as well.

The US did essentially win the war in the Pacific vs. Japan. Japan was primarily defeated by the effective naval blockade and was ready to surrender long before the atomic bombs.

The Allies won! all of them! U.S, Russia, England, France, China, Australia, Canada, Phillipines, and the various fighters in Poland, Norway, and every other country! doesnt matter how bad their economy was, how much of their country got bombed, they won (at least their side did)

Stalin was far from the biggest winner…. heavy debt, most of his countries industry was in ruins…. im not sure if 75% of the germans were really killed there, but what percentage do you think the Russians had to lose, to kill that?
and you get eastern Europe… the countries that were bombed to hell! \

Now, the war in the pacific, was mostly a American fight, but the British were fighting a hell of alot against the Japs to, and even the Australia helped alot.

as for the part about Japan being ready to surrender before the A-bombs, that is complete bull crap! they were not going to surrender before the bombs, they wernt gonna surrender after the first bomb, and they almost failed to surrender after the second, their war council, or whatever they had voted, and it came up a tie, and the emperor (or whatever) decided to surrender! (smart man…)

if they didnt surrender, we would of had to invade the Japanese homeland… we said we had tons of more bombs, ready to drop, we were bluffing, it would take months to get another one…

Eisenhower claimed that an invasion wasnt neccessary for the end of the war. Similarly, an American Admiral said the atomic bombings weren’t neccessary. Japan was running out of oil. Naval Blockades would ensure they would not get more. No oil = No weapons. No weapons = No offensive. All the Allies had to do was contain them until they couldnt fight, which wouldnt have taken a long time.

Originally posted by Darkruler2005:

most people think the U.S won the war single handed…

Only the ignorant.

Sounds like a large portion to me.

 
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Sounds like a large portion to me.

A large portion may be ignorant, then.

 
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Originally posted by Zzzip50:

Does it really matter about all the post war effects? This topic is only about who won ww2. And in war, victory means the other side got obliterated/surrendered, not about who is more stable/technologically advenced/religiously tolerated/politically stable/morally correct decades after the war.

No. The axis surrendered to the allies. The allies won. That is it.

Go back and read the OP. His whole point is about the after-effects of the war decades later. Kind of ironic how you don’t know that, considering you’ve been slamming people for ‘derailing’ the topic every post you’ve made in this thread.

 
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The axis surrendered to the allies. The allies won. That is it.

Well, winning implies that you’re also better off. Do you think people are better off before or after their cities have been bombed?

 
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Originally posted by tubeway:

What is a Brit?
Do you mean British? That is what we are, I am British not a Brit.
You Amers are all the same ;-))

I am not American, and I did say that they won the war. But they did with the help of the British. I’m actually Canadian my friend, and I didn’t mean to make the Americans look good or anything, but in the end they were the ones who ended the war. Had it not been for England in the start of the war, the Allies may not have won. England played the most important role in the war actually besides the Germans.

I really don’t know much on what the Canadians did except I know some of them were sent to Italy to fight the Germans there. Can’t quite remember all the details my old History teacher told me. And let me stress this: I am not American. Please don’t call me an American again. My great grandfather was actually an S.S. Nazi during WWll. I don’t take sides, and when I said the United States won, I meant that they basically ended the war. And lastly, I was not on the winning side…..At that time my family was in Germany. And they lost. It appears that you were misinformed.

 
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I like how you stress your nazi heritage over being mistaken for an American. How quintessentially Canadian.

 
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who cares if someone abriveates your nationality? Its like calling someone named Nicolas Nik.

 
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Originally posted by Zzzip50:

Does it really matter about all the post war effects? This topic is only about who won ww2. And in war, victory means the other side got obliterated/surrendered, not about who is more stable/technologically advenced/religiously tolerated/politically stable/morally correct decades after the war.

No. The axis surrendered to the allies. The allies won. That is it.

Losers of war suffers more than winners, no? Simplified history states that allies won WW2 if that’s what you mean… simply….

 
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Britain was on the frontlines of WW2, along with Non-Vichy France. Adolf Hitler did not want to invade the West, but it was the only way to secure his flanks. As for America, America did not commit soldiers to the war until 1941, but by the time they got in they were almost entirely supplying the allies. If Japan didn’t bomb Pearl Harbor America would have still gotten into the war. (FDR and Winston Churchill were good friends.) The entry time most likely would have just been a bit later. As for the nuking of Japan – Almost every Japenese soldier and possibly citizen would have fought to the death if invaded, and an invasion would result in casualties upwards of 1-2 million. The atomic bombs combined took about 250,000 lives. Obviously that’s still a terrible loss, but it was the better alternative in terms of loss of life. We actually bluffed, and said we had one bomb for every major city, and before the bombings, we airdropped pamphlets telling the citizens to run. Even if we hadn’t developed the nuclear bomb, the recent invention of Napalm would have also taken down Japan. We actually had a napalm bombing raid. It killed 40,000 people, (1/3 of the Hiroshima bomb), but history tends to forget these things.