Can Communism Work? page 19

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Originally posted by Zachary_Greene:


It’s simple, you (could) give them a slight benefit for working the shit job.

It’s even simpler than that: You don’t give them a shit job in the first place. Nobody needs to be a janitor or a street sweeper. Automate those jobs. Let something that does not draw a wage deal with them. Someone who loves to tinker with machinery can maintain them.

No job should ever be forced on somebody. They do it because they love it or not at all – that is possible if you automate the shitty ones / the ones nobody wishes to do.

A communist society could in theory allow this, because every job could be automated, but not every job would. If the populace are taken care of regardless of whether they work or not, then it becomes entirely up to the individual what work they wish to do.

I know many many people who love being a farmer, love being a lawyer, schoolteacher or even a janitor.

Exactly. They do it because they love it.

People don’t get food for their family unless they work, as long as work is available in their field, or in one they could work in for a little while till one came up in theirs.

I would change this. Individuals don’t get food for themselves unless they work. Their family members can work / train to get food. Working hard at school counts as work after all, and is rewarded in kind. School becomes something that teaches you the essential skills of critical thinking and makes sure the basics are covered, but otherwise tailors the courses to what interests you. Kids then become highly knowledgable in the skills required for the fields that are of real interest to them – without skimping on the basics they need to know to survive in civilisation.

Only exceptions are if you get in a accident where you can’t work or something of that such.

Even if your body fails you, you can still work. Your mind is still active. Hook that up to the computers, let your thoughts do the work whilst your body lies in the hospital bed, recovering. Socialised medicine, healthcare being every citizen’s right.

 
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Look at North Korea right now, it’s not doing all too bad compared to what you seem to believe.

No, no, no. I’d really recommend trying to educate yourself again about North Korea. Starvation is rampant and obvious. The torture/prison camps are visible on satellite and attested to by the myriad of people who have fled the country, from officials to civilians. North Korea’s education system is utter fabrication and unable to maintain progressive education. What fields and advances have North Korea contributed into? North Korea is a failed state in every sense of the world. They make nothing but rubbish, are trapped in downward spiral and really only manage to maintain grotesque facades as they collectively drag themselves into the mire.

I bet you’re going to start spouting crap about how the Soviets executed it’s citizens, but I’d like some proof of that and why they were.

The Stalinist purges are actually quite well documented, as are the planned starvations. Perhaps look into the Ukranian genocides? For an interesting turn of the coin, look into the Russian Criminal World right now. It was conceived in the mingling of political dissidents and petty criminals and is almost preposterously anti state. The Gulags were a death sentence for like 90% of the people sent there. “not as much as you believe?” it happened more then anywhere else, ever.

Most Russians say they liked the USSR more than the current day from the polls, from what I know.

Citation please?

 
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Originally posted by Ungeziefer:

I’m not sure I’d call Sweden one of the strongest economies right now. It’s external debt per capita is about 100k, which is pretty outlandish. Pretty much twice that of the USA, which is generally given shit on account of it’s rating. It’s Net International is at a negative 729 Billion, about 22% of it’s total GDP. Also a worse off position then the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_international_investment_position
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

hmm… :/ according to that list, Luxembourg’s got BY FAR the most debt of any nation in the world, BY FAR. and yet, Luxembourg is possibly the richest country in the world, per capita.

i don’t know what to make of that. but what i do know, is that the only countries of all the currently “rich” countries to have economic surplus or growth (w/e) is Sweden and Germany, maybe Norway not sure.

 
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hold on…what? i never said Sweden is communist, and i certainly didn’t say anything like that about Luxembourg (which, btw, is not a city state, just a really small country).

also, what do you mean “afford the debts inherent to a communist state”? who made that point?

as for the rest…that was kinda amusing. i think i’ll enjoy it even more if i get high first.

 
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dunno what communism is (dont care much about politics or other people)

people just seem to complain aboput bad conditions but they dont do anything

 
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Originally posted by Galdos:

dunno what communism is

Then why are you here?

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:
Originally posted by Ungeziefer:

I’m not sure I’d call Sweden one of the strongest economies right now. It’s external debt per capita is about 100k, which is pretty outlandish. Pretty much twice that of the USA, which is generally given shit on account of it’s rating. It’s Net International is at a negative 729 Billion, about 22% of it’s total GDP. Also a worse off position then the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_international_investment_position
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

hmm… :/ according to that list, Luxembourg’s got BY FAR the most debt of any nation in the world, BY FAR. and yet, Luxembourg is possibly the richest country in the world, per capita.

i don’t know what to make of that. but what i do know, is that the only countries of all the currently “rich” countries to have economic surplus or growth (w/e) is Sweden and Germany, maybe Norway not sure.

They often act as an international creditor many countries have some side business that including move large amounts of money it’s just very easy for a small country to rank of enormous debt. This isn’t a problem as this isn’t a real debt instead they say lend 5 billion to france which they borrowed from an international bank.

 
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Well, knowing that there wasn’t any communist country in the world that was ever created…

(Yup’. The principle of the communism is taking up the wealth, and give it to everyone.
Even USSR wasn’t a communist country, since they did not gave the money back)

 
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Lol while mentioning USSR in every topic about communism is understandable it has nothing to do with the reality. In short USSR = (weird) state capitalism. Don’t mix official ideology (and how it was promoted) and real economic models (there were several, one replacing another).

 
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OmegaDoom
bq. hmm… :/ according to that list, Luxembourg’s got BY FAR the most debt of any nation in the world, BY FAR. and yet, Luxembourg is possibly the richest country in the world, per capita.

Quite right. I’ve since realized that external debt is a silly way to measure things. It is merely the negative side of the equation, unbalanced with external assets. It presents a very limited picture and not one of general wealth.
But,the NII position graph, should be good as it is the balanced value. Luxemburg comes out quite well, being about 33 billion Euros ahead, nearly a full year of their GDP.
Sorry about presenting the misleading data.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_international_investment_position

 
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from what i know about the human mind is that the only thing that is keeping us civilized and building things, is by forcing people to obey(laws)

if there were no such things as laws – then in time MOST humans(not all) would become the natural savages that they are and murder and take what they want.(unless police are too many. but theyd prolly be taken care off)

or maybe this is completely the opposite
:)

maybe humans arent as bad

:)

 
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i think we need a list of countries by (GDP+NIIP)/population.

 
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Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by Galdos:

dunno what communism is

Then why are you here?

to discuss stategies.

i may not know the jargon, but i know everything else.

you prolly think you’re real cool for knowing the definition.

yet YOU are the one not contributing to this discussion.

 
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Originally posted by Galdos:

to discuss stategies.

Strategies for what?

i may not know the jargon, but i know everything else.

About what, Communism?

Okay, so you mean to say that you don’t actually know the definition of the word Communism, but you do know everything else about communism?… That makes less than no sense.

you prolly think you’re real cool for knowing the definition.

Not really, I was just asking because if you didn’t know nor wanted to figure out the definition (seriously, it only takes about a minute to find what it means) then why would you post in a thread about how effective communism is in the first place?

yet YOU are the one not contributing to this discussion.

I didn’t? Okay, that might have been in a different thread.

Though I fail to see how saying “people like to complain” adds that much to the discussion.

 
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Originally posted by Player609:

Lol while mentioning USSR in every topic about communism is understandable it has nothing to do with the reality. In short USSR = (weird) state capitalism. Don’t mix official ideology (and how it was promoted) and real economic models (there were several, one replacing another).

So you’re basically saying that the USSR wasn’t a “real” communist dictatorship (yes, every communist state that has ever existed was led by a dictator or dictators).

You’d actually be right.

Because not one single despotic communist cesspool that has ever killed millions of it’s own citizens, then collapsing after a few more decades, was “really” communist.

Under “real” communism the people have ownership (err, “usership”) of all property equally.

Under real-life communism the government has complete ownership (not “usership”) of all property (and ownership of the people who supposedly equally own [“use”, you’re welcome, Marx] this property) and arbitrates the “usership” of this property, including food and shelter (which both often run low in these real-life communist dictatorships, as shown by the lack of both any types of homeless shelters/kitchens and the thousands of people who died and are dying of starvation, unlike free nations who have more beds in shelters than homeless people, but also have homeless people who would rather live on the street for alcohol and drugs than live in said shelters).

The sad truth is that “real” communism is humanly impossible, as evident by the millions dead and dying in real-life communist countries; another showing matter of fact is that there is a stunning lack of millions of refugees swarming to North Korea and Cuba because they are starving or deprived of freedom or want a new life.

If you haven’t noticed, it’s the other way around.

If you have ever been confused why people always call for giving communism “another chance” in the name of fairness every time the last one blew to pieces and the former prisoners (citizens) of that failed nation have fled to the US and other free lands, they do this because they honestly believe that, despite that every new attempt has become a human sinew + meatball pasta, that someone will “get it right this time”.

 
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@PatriotSaint

What I say is that certain countries ruled by certain dictators and/or bureaucrats (USSR included) could have “communist-style” official ideology. So what? State of things in economics and individual’s ability to have his needs (from food and shelter to personal freedoms) satisfied is what really matters.

I’m lazy so I’d cit. Wiki: “Strictly speaking, pure communism is a stage of social development where material and productive forces are advanced to a degree where actual freedom (freedom from necessity, and thus from wage labor and alienation from work) for every person is possible. The state apparatus becomes redundant because classes cease to exist.”

Sounds like some sort of hi-tech, hi-life futuristic society for me.

 
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Originally posted by Player609:

Sounds like some sort of hi-tech, hi-life futuristic society for me.

Well, certainly high-tech. The kind of society where there’s a 3D printer in every home, and raw materials are piped through, would allow it. All consumer-based manufacturing would then take place in each person’s home, to the specs they desired.

There’d still be industrial printing to fit larger needs, and chemical deposition-based manufacture. But the traditional manufacturing and distributing industrial models would be very dead.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by Player609:

Sounds like some sort of hi-tech, hi-life futuristic society for me.

Well, certainly high-tech. The kind of society where there’s a 3D printer in every home, and raw materials are piped through, would allow it. All consumer-based manufacturing would then take place in each person’s home, to the specs they desired.

There’d still be industrial printing to fit larger needs, and chemical deposition-based manufacture. But the traditional manufacturing and distributing industrial models would be very dead.

Abundant food also comes to mind. Some assembly lines where raw meat instead of cattle is produced for instance. (I can imagine further but don’t want to be too sci-fi’ish :D)

Can’t decide about personal security. Maybe weapon owning is a dead end in the long run? Why not to try a defensive approach and imagine some sort of fabric that can’t be penetrated by knife or bullet?
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@PatriotSaint

What seems to be (almost) always skipped in discussions about communism is the human nature. I have a terrible suspicion that it’s not the Evil Communist Ideology that curses ppl and forces them to commit crimes but certain ppl WILL commit crimes regardless of official ideology given the chance. That was Captain Obvious ;D

 
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raw meat already has been grown in the lab without needing the whole animal, so its not sci-fi’ish. Production lines of meat grown in a vat make perfect sense, as does using this meat and other ingredients in a second 3D printer to make foodstuff to order.

Those who have a genetic predisposition towards certain behaviors will likely break the law if the law is against that behavior yes. However you can mitigate that with a benevolent overwatch system monitoring everyone in shared spaces – and the only way it could be benevolent would be if it was not human, and thus not susceptible to human foibles.

The ultimate leadership would likewise have to not be human. Society is then based on advancement and maintaining quality of life as its main directions. Leadership still required to solve difficult issues such as energy production, resource aquisition and waste recycling.

 
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Hope that gonna happen in my lifetime cause I definitely prefer hi-tech production to smth. like this (it’s a food market in Moscow near a place where I live mentioned. Ppl with lower income tend to buy food there):

“Laboratory staff for a small fee issued certificates for meat, unexamined, including mandatory testing for parasitic diseases. The product then came on the market, bought by ordinary customers, and the owners of cafes and restaurants. According to experts, this meat products could pose a threat to the health of consumers.”

By going too sci-fi’ish I mean more radical ways starting with modifying human body to make it possible to expand food base. I can’t digest cellulose and chitin for instance. I imagine that with certain artificial organs or genetic modifying it may be possible.

If one’s body can’t be harmed by conventional means, he won’t need weapon to be safe. At least it’s fresh after eternal pro-guns vs no-guns holywar. If anything like this could be real that would make individual more independent, including lesser possible pressure from government.

 
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Not related to previous, back to communism/USSR/etc. An illustration on how certain issues were viewed at different times:

In pre-soviet Russia homosexual behavior among men was not something extraordinary. It was not considered as “proper healthy behavior” but existed in certain male communities, at times in the form of local subcultures (like a “male bath subculture” in early 1900s) or in closed male communities far away from civilization and women (goldmines, etc). It seems that early Soviets almost legalized “family of two men”. I guess it could become like nowadays “gay marriage” with economic guarantees from the state like the priority in inheritance, treatment-related decision for a partner in coma state at the hospital, etc.)

Then during Stalin period homosexual behavior became a criminal offense. In prisons and labor camps homosexuals were treated if not as “right and proper” as “normal” men, but were not segregated until 1950s at least. But then the radical turn took place, and homosexuals became pariahs, lower prison caste with no rights. That was inspired by authorities to be able to have leverage over other prisoners. At same time it was considered “not homosexual” if a “normal” prisoner had sex with pariah if “normal” playing active role.

A 180 degree turn.

upd re-read and edited a bit

 
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Communism works against human greed and hatred. Capitalism works with it to produce a decent outcome. Of course, in practice it’s a lot more complex, but the gist of it is “be a Communist and fight greed and envy” or “be a Capitalist and make the most of your greed”. In essence, with Communism it’s everybody getting a fraction of everything and with capitalism, some people getting a tonne of something (and often wasting it) and everybody else getting zilch.
Capitalism = “greed is good”.
You should read one of Iain M. Banks’ Culture novels. Truly worthwhile (and adult, though not pornographic) sci-fi.

 
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@PatriotSaint


“What seems to be (almost) always skipped in discussions about communism is the human nature. I have a terrible suspicion that it’s not the Evil Communist Ideology that curses ppl and forces them to commit crimes but certain ppl WILL commit crimes regardless of official ideology given the chance. That was Captain Obvious ;D

Exactly, Player609!

Crimes will always be committed regardless of ideology.

That is why there are prisons in capitalist countries for CRIMINALS (aka people who commit crimes) to be held in.

In communist countries, there are prisons (aka political prison camps) at the command of criminals who send thousands of innocent people (aka people who have not committed crimes… well, a crime is whatever Our Great Leader feels should be at the moment in communist countries) to their deaths.

 
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And maybe you guys should make a different topic for hi-tech production and such, which has nothing to do directly with this topic. It’s an interesting topic but it doesn’t belong here.

 
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Originally posted by PatriotSaint:

Crimes will always be committed regardless of ideology.

That is why there are prisons in capitalist countries for CRIMINALS (aka people who commit crimes) to be held in.

In communist countries, there are prisons (aka political prison camps) at the command of criminals who send thousands of innocent people (aka people who have not committed crimes… well, a crime is whatever Our Great Leader feels should be at the moment in communist countries) to their deaths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment

But then America like most countries is and was never truly capitalist. All known governments are hybrids concerning government vs. private ownership of capital and means of production. In most countries the government is actually the greatest single economic player.