Can Communism Work? page 19

I still don’t get how someone who has a right mind could say communism doesn’t work and never can.
It’s simple and logical.
Now that doesn’t mean it has or would work with how stupid most humans are and how horrible most are, but it can.

Originally posted by sanii:

If everybody could beceome doctors or scentists, company managers or a lawer, who would be the country farmer? the worker or the janitor? even the stupidest of people have higher ambitions.

It’s simple, you (could) give them a slight benefit for working the shit job.
I know many many people who love being a farmer, love being a lawyer, schoolteacher or even a janitor.

Most janitors don’t mind their job if people aren’t disrespectful when using the bathroom.

Better yet, don’t give someone a job as a janitor, being the normal janitor meaning. Split it up between workers or put each person in charge of their mess. If you go in and shit all over the floor, you have to clean it up or possibly get punished/shittier job slot.
There’s tons of options that I could explain solving such a problem, but they are all too long to explain here because it’d take well over a single post.

Plus, currently, If people slack off, it would result in them leeching of the system, taking the same chunk as hard working pplz without doing anything.

Non-existent.
People don’t get food for their family unless they work, as long as work is available in their field, or in one they could work in for a little while till one came up in theirs.
Only exceptions are if you get in a accident where you can’t work or something of that such.

Just get every person doing something productive unless they can’t.
If they try and leech like many would say what would happen in communism, they get nothing. No food, nothing.
That doesn’t mean people can’t be generous and give the extra food they have to them, or they wouldn’t get extra food before it goes bad.

Right now, we have capitilisme cause if we shared everything with everybody (comunisme) The pplz that work hard would be pissed that there living in the same shack as dudes who do abasutly nothing.

But that wouldn’t happen.
There is no way to slack if you don’t supply them if you give them the chance.
If they don’t work, they have to rely on others being kind enough to help them. If they get no one, they can feel free to beg for food from the government but they won’t get anything till they help out some how.
Of course people who can’t work because they have mental issues or are too old or something would be excused.

Originally posted by beauval:
Even at the most basic level it’s a flawed vision. Mountains of unsold goods represent dead money, and suck up even more in storage and depreciation costs. Cash flow is vital in any business model, and without it the whole system grinds to a halt without ever increasing subsidies.

So, we need to have money for a society to be successful?
That can be in a communist society, truly.

You can get paid like you do in a normal capitalist society, but with money you could only use here freely.
You could buy trips or vacations or food or whatever you want with the money.

People say it couldn’t go with communism, but it can.
You can have a currency in it with no issues.

Originally posted by PatriotSaint:

North Korea: the country cannot provide for it’s people, people starve, are in political and/or enemy-of-the-state-and-communism concentration camps, have little or no education (unless favored by the government), and are daily subjugated and brainwashed to hate the free world through both individual brainwashing techniques and/or government instituted and produced propaganda in the form of posters, government television and radio, and even math problems (“One of our glorious land’s soldiers killed 654 American soldiers and 759 British soldiers. What is the difference between the American and British soldiers killed?”)

You’re using one of the worst possible examples of communism.
It’s a small country, without tons of land to get materials from, that is hated by most of the world restricting them more, next to multiple giants, that constantly gets harassed by the USA and the South…
At least use the USSR as an example and explain why it’s bad there instead of the place it can’t do too well in.

And even there, communism hasn’t failed them.
Look at North Korea right now, it’s not doing all too bad compared to what you seem to believe.

• People starve
  This happens in every country, and it actually rarely happens in North Korea.
  You might know this if you knew people who live in North Korea, or looked at anything aside from propaganda.

• Concentration camps
  No such thing.
  I bet you’re going to start spouting crap about how the Soviets executed it’s citizens, but I’d like some proof of that and why they were.
  I’m sure it happened a fair amount, but surely as not as much as you seemingly believe.

• No education
  You really are brainwashed, aren’t you?
  North Korea has education, just as “communist” China, as well as the USSR did.
  The USSR had one of the best education systems of the entire world for a good while if I remember right, although I’m not too sure about that.

• Subjected to daily brainwashing
  And you aren’t?
  Holy shit, I know North Korea is acting like based North Korea, but they don’t do it any more than the USA does.
  It’s a illusion.
  America hides it and hides it well, North Korea doesn’t hide it at all.

America isn’t free at all compared to most other countries, and no matter how much you scream about your false freedoms it won’t help.
People can lie, and you can believe a lie.

• Propaganda in forms of the television, radio, posters and math problems
  I have no idea where you’re getting this math problems from because I’ve never heard such a thing.
  And once again, it’s a illusion.

If you think there’s no propaganda, lies and government run media in America;“land of the free” then you’re insane.
Just because it’s said to not be, and they’re public about it doesn’t mean anything.
There’s a reason why I despise most American TV and news stations as well as most western ones. They’re all pushing a agenda and not speaking what’s happening.

Russia today is clearly based to Russia, and the Chinese one is clearly based to China, as well as the Arab one like the previous to. But the American version (CNN) doesn’t report on things like the others do. They won’t speak about the horrid bombings going on, the executions, the economy, the false attacks, nothing.
Why do “eastern” nations big stations report on things that aren’t nice and fun while the western ones don’t? And when the western ones do, why is it always so much later, and why is it always extremely different?

For example the Gaza Israel thing a few months back.
American media? Poor Israel, they’re getting attacked by terrorists and they’re defenseless! Children are having to run to shelters! Muslims are trying to kill Jews, multiple Israelis are injured. (Very little coverage)

Russian media? Israel is getting attacked by Hamas and other people from inside Gaza, and Israel is responding by attacking the Gaza strip. Drones are flying over Gaza strip and dropping bombs, Hamas may of just downed a chopper of Israel and may have a hostage… (Updates often, and are interviewing a few “western” Journalists)

I didn’t hear that much information throughout the entire thing, or after it ended to some extent from American media on local or widespread stations.
On the Russian counterparts and Journalists reports I heard people talking about the dead Gazan children, as well as the injured Israelis, the drones and more of the actual story.

If you think America is free after everything is controlled in such a manor, and just by a few companies/people, something is wrong.
I understand that the stations might have different viewpoints, but when EVERY American one is like this and avoids what’s actually happening and the actual death tolls, and what the Israeli prime minister said directly to the media LIVE, then something clearly isn’t right here.
If that’s not propaganda, what is?
Die for Israel.

Actually, that describes pretty much every Communist country that has ever existed. So I don’t need to write slightly varying descriptions between these cesspools.
Here are the rest:

Cuba
U.S.S.R.
North Vietnam
East Germany
Romania
Somalia
Congo

And so on and so forth…

Aside from how it was, lets look at what they became.
Where they better under Communist rule?

Most Russians say they liked the USSR more than the current day from the polls, from what I know.
The government has to take down statues that people put up quite often.
And I know for a fact Russia had a good amount of education during the Soviet times.

Cuba, Cuba in general is and will always be a shit-hole if it is just by it’s self. America kind of fucked them aside from it just being a trashy small place in general.

Somalia, I think it speaks for it’s self.
I don’t know anything about their “communist” days, but it’s clear it was better back then. They’re Anarchist, like almost all African countries, and have always been.

North Vietnam, didn’t they win the war Against the Capitalist Americans?

Congo, once again another shit-hole.
They clearly aren’t doing too well without communism, but I don’t know how they were with it.
Bottom line, it’s a shitty African country that isn’t doing too well right now.

Oh, and just so you know, North Korea isn’t really a communist country.

Originally posted by PatriotSaint:
Name one communist country that “worked”. You can’t. Because one never has existed, does not exist, and never will exist.

China, or if not them the Soviet Union.
The soviet union wasn’t successful, but it was.

The soviet union became a industrial country and was running it’s way into a super-power.
That doesn’t mean they were completely successful and all, but they did do a fairly good job in that sense.

Just used Ungeziefer’s links, and I realized something.
Every “communist” country, or former one has the lowest debt per capita.
So, isn’t this a good thing?

Look at China, Russia, Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea, or any of the other countries you keep throwing around, patriot.
Look how low these are.

Why are the most capitalist countries in the most debt per capita, or in general more in debt if they’re so much more successful?
lel

Originally posted by Zachary_Greene:

It’s simple, you (could) give them a slight benefit for working the shit job.

It’s even simpler than that: You don’t give them a shit job in the first place. Nobody needs to be a janitor or a street sweeper. Automate those jobs. Let something that does not draw a wage deal with them. Someone who loves to tinker with machinery can maintain them.

No job should ever be forced on somebody. They do it because they love it or not at all – that is possible if you automate the shitty ones / the ones nobody wishes to do.

A communist society could in theory allow this, because every job could be automated, but not every job would. If the populace are taken care of regardless of whether they work or not, then it becomes entirely up to the individual what work they wish to do.

I know many many people who love being a farmer, love being a lawyer, schoolteacher or even a janitor.

Exactly. They do it because they love it.

People don’t get food for their family unless they work, as long as work is available in their field, or in one they could work in for a little while till one came up in theirs.

I would change this. Individuals don’t get food for themselves unless they work. Their family members can work / train to get food. Working hard at school counts as work after all, and is rewarded in kind. School becomes something that teaches you the essential skills of critical thinking and makes sure the basics are covered, but otherwise tailors the courses to what interests you. Kids then become highly knowledgable in the skills required for the fields that are of real interest to them – without skimping on the basics they need to know to survive in civilisation.

Only exceptions are if you get in a accident where you can’t work or something of that such.

Even if your body fails you, you can still work. Your mind is still active. Hook that up to the computers, let your thoughts do the work whilst your body lies in the hospital bed, recovering. Socialised medicine, healthcare being every citizen’s right.

Look at North Korea right now, it’s not doing all too bad compared to what you seem to believe.

No, no, no. I’d really recommend trying to educate yourself again about North Korea. Starvation is rampant and obvious. The torture/prison camps are visible on satellite and attested to by the myriad of people who have fled the country, from officials to civilians. North Korea’s education system is utter fabrication and unable to maintain progressive education. What fields and advances have North Korea contributed into? North Korea is a failed state in every sense of the world. They make nothing but rubbish, are trapped in downward spiral and really only manage to maintain grotesque facades as they collectively drag themselves into the mire.

I bet you’re going to start spouting crap about how the Soviets executed it’s citizens, but I’d like some proof of that and why they were.

The Stalinist purges are actually quite well documented, as are the planned starvations. Perhaps look into the Ukranian genocides? For an interesting turn of the coin, look into the Russian Criminal World right now. It was conceived in the mingling of political dissidents and petty criminals and is almost preposterously anti state. The Gulags were a death sentence for like 90% of the people sent there. “not as much as you believe?” it happened more then anywhere else, ever.

Most Russians say they liked the USSR more than the current day from the polls, from what I know.

Citation please?

Originally posted by Ungeziefer:

I’m not sure I’d call Sweden one of the strongest economies right now. It’s external debt per capita is about 100k, which is pretty outlandish. Pretty much twice that of the USA, which is generally given shit on account of it’s rating. It’s Net International is at a negative 729 Billion, about 22% of it’s total GDP. Also a worse off position then the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_international_investment_position
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

hmm… :/ according to that list, Luxembourg’s got BY FAR the most debt of any nation in the world, BY FAR. and yet, Luxembourg is possibly the richest country in the world, per capita.

i don’t know what to make of that. but what i do know, is that the only countries of all the currently “rich” countries to have economic surplus or growth (w/e) is Sweden and Germany, maybe Norway not sure.

hold on…what? i never said Sweden is communist, and i certainly didn’t say anything like that about Luxembourg (which, btw, is not a city state, just a really small country).

also, what do you mean “afford the debts inherent to a communist state”? who made that point?

as for the rest…that was kinda amusing. i think i’ll enjoy it even more if i get high first.

dunno what communism is (dont care much about politics or other people)

people just seem to complain aboput bad conditions but they dont do anything

Originally posted by Galdos:

dunno what communism is

Then why are you here?

Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

Originally posted by Ungeziefer:

I’m not sure I’d call Sweden one of the strongest economies right now. It’s external debt per capita is about 100k, which is pretty outlandish. Pretty much twice that of the USA, which is generally given shit on account of it’s rating. It’s Net International is at a negative 729 Billion, about 22% of it’s total GDP. Also a worse off position then the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_international_investment_position
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

hmm… :/ according to that list, Luxembourg’s got BY FAR the most debt of any nation in the world, BY FAR. and yet, Luxembourg is possibly the richest country in the world, per capita.

i don’t know what to make of that. but what i do know, is that the only countries of all the currently “rich” countries to have economic surplus or growth (w/e) is Sweden and Germany, maybe Norway not sure.

They often act as an international creditor many countries have some side business that including move large amounts of money it’s just very easy for a small country to rank of enormous debt. This isn’t a problem as this isn’t a real debt instead they say lend 5 billion to france which they borrowed from an international bank.

Well, knowing that there wasn’t any communist country in the world that was ever created…

(Yup’. The principle of the communism is taking up the wealth, and give it to everyone.
Even USSR wasn’t a communist country, since they did not gave the money back)

Lol while mentioning USSR in every topic about communism is understandable it has nothing to do with the reality. In short USSR = (weird) state capitalism. Don’t mix official ideology (and how it was promoted) and real economic models (there were several, one replacing another).

OmegaDoom
bq. hmm… :/ according to that list, Luxembourg’s got BY FAR the most debt of any nation in the world, BY FAR. and yet, Luxembourg is possibly the richest country in the world, per capita.

Quite right. I’ve since realized that external debt is a silly way to measure things. It is merely the negative side of the equation, unbalanced with external assets. It presents a very limited picture and not one of general wealth.
But,the NII position graph, should be good as it is the balanced value. Luxemburg comes out quite well, being about 33 billion Euros ahead, nearly a full year of their GDP.
Sorry about presenting the misleading data.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_international_investment_position

from what i know about the human mind is that the only thing that is keeping us civilized and building things, is by forcing people to obey(laws)

if there were no such things as laws – then in time MOST humans(not all) would become the natural savages that they are and murder and take what they want.(unless police are too many. but theyd prolly be taken care off)

or maybe this is completely the opposite
:)

maybe humans arent as bad

:)

i think we need a list of countries by (GDP+NIIP)/population.

Originally posted by tenco1:

Originally posted by Galdos:

dunno what communism is

Then why are you here?

to discuss stategies.

i may not know the jargon, but i know everything else.

you prolly think you’re real cool for knowing the definition.

yet YOU are the one not contributing to this discussion.

Originally posted by Galdos:

to discuss stategies.

Strategies for what?

i may not know the jargon, but i know everything else.

About what, Communism?

Okay, so you mean to say that you don’t actually know the definition of the word Communism, but you do know everything else about communism?… That makes less than no sense.

you prolly think you’re real cool for knowing the definition.

Not really, I was just asking because if you didn’t know nor wanted to figure out the definition (seriously, it only takes about a minute to find what it means) then why would you post in a thread about how effective communism is in the first place?

yet YOU are the one not contributing to this discussion.

I didn’t? Okay, that might have been in a different thread.

Though I fail to see how saying “people like to complain” adds that much to the discussion.

Originally posted by Player609:

Lol while mentioning USSR in every topic about communism is understandable it has nothing to do with the reality. In short USSR = (weird) state capitalism. Don’t mix official ideology (and how it was promoted) and real economic models (there were several, one replacing another).

So you’re basically saying that the USSR wasn’t a “real” communist dictatorship (yes, every communist state that has ever existed was led by a dictator or dictators).

You’d actually be right.

Because not one single despotic communist cesspool that has ever killed millions of it’s own citizens, then collapsing after a few more decades, was “really” communist.

Under “real” communism the people have ownership (err, “usership”) of all property equally.

Under real-life communism the government has complete ownership (not “usership”) of all property (and ownership of the people who supposedly equally own [“use”, you’re welcome, Marx] this property) and arbitrates the “usership” of this property, including food and shelter (which both often run low in these real-life communist dictatorships, as shown by the lack of both any types of homeless shelters/kitchens and the thousands of people who died and are dying of starvation, unlike free nations who have more beds in shelters than homeless people, but also have homeless people who would rather live on the street for alcohol and drugs than live in said shelters).

The sad truth is that “real” communism is humanly impossible, as evident by the millions dead and dying in real-life communist countries; another showing matter of fact is that there is a stunning lack of millions of refugees swarming to North Korea and Cuba because they are starving or deprived of freedom or want a new life.

If you haven’t noticed, it’s the other way around.

If you have ever been confused why people always call for giving communism “another chance” in the name of fairness every time the last one blew to pieces and the former prisoners (citizens) of that failed nation have fled to the US and other free lands, they do this because they honestly believe that, despite that every new attempt has become a human sinew + meatball pasta, that someone will “get it right this time”.

@PatriotSaint

What I say is that certain countries ruled by certain dictators and/or bureaucrats (USSR included) could have “communist-style” official ideology. So what? State of things in economics and individual’s ability to have his needs (from food and shelter to personal freedoms) satisfied is what really matters.

I’m lazy so I’d cit. Wiki: “Strictly speaking, pure communism is a stage of social development where material and productive forces are advanced to a degree where actual freedom (freedom from necessity, and thus from wage labor and alienation from work) for every person is possible. The state apparatus becomes redundant because classes cease to exist.”

Sounds like some sort of hi-tech, hi-life futuristic society for me.

Originally posted by Player609:

Sounds like some sort of hi-tech, hi-life futuristic society for me.

Well, certainly high-tech. The kind of society where there’s a 3D printer in every home, and raw materials are piped through, would allow it. All consumer-based manufacturing would then take place in each person’s home, to the specs they desired.

There’d still be industrial printing to fit larger needs, and chemical deposition-based manufacture. But the traditional manufacturing and distributing industrial models would be very dead.

Originally posted by vikaTae:

Originally posted by Player609:

Sounds like some sort of hi-tech, hi-life futuristic society for me.

Well, certainly high-tech. The kind of society where there’s a 3D printer in every home, and raw materials are piped through, would allow it. All consumer-based manufacturing would then take place in each person’s home, to the specs they desired.

There’d still be industrial printing to fit larger needs, and chemical deposition-based manufacture. But the traditional manufacturing and distributing industrial models would be very dead.

Abundant food also comes to mind. Some assembly lines where raw meat instead of cattle is produced for instance. (I can imagine further but don’t want to be too sci-fi’ish :D)

Can’t decide about personal security. Maybe weapon owning is a dead end in the long run? Why not to try a defensive approach and imagine some sort of fabric that can’t be penetrated by knife or bullet?
-
@PatriotSaint

What seems to be (almost) always skipped in discussions about communism is the human nature. I have a terrible suspicion that it’s not the Evil Communist Ideology that curses ppl and forces them to commit crimes but certain ppl WILL commit crimes regardless of official ideology given the chance. That was Captain Obvious ;D

raw meat already has been grown in the lab without needing the whole animal, so its not sci-fi’ish. Production lines of meat grown in a vat make perfect sense, as does using this meat and other ingredients in a second 3D printer to make foodstuff to order.

Those who have a genetic predisposition towards certain behaviors will likely break the law if the law is against that behavior yes. However you can mitigate that with a benevolent overwatch system monitoring everyone in shared spaces – and the only way it could be benevolent would be if it was not human, and thus not susceptible to human foibles.

The ultimate leadership would likewise have to not be human. Society is then based on advancement and maintaining quality of life as its main directions. Leadership still required to solve difficult issues such as energy production, resource aquisition and waste recycling.

Hope that gonna happen in my lifetime cause I definitely prefer hi-tech production to smth. like this (it’s a food market in Moscow near a place where I live mentioned. Ppl with lower income tend to buy food there):

“Laboratory staff for a small fee issued certificates for meat, unexamined, including mandatory testing for parasitic diseases. The product then came on the market, bought by ordinary customers, and the owners of cafes and restaurants. According to experts, this meat products could pose a threat to the health of consumers.”

By going too sci-fi’ish I mean more radical ways starting with modifying human body to make it possible to expand food base. I can’t digest cellulose and chitin for instance. I imagine that with certain artificial organs or genetic modifying it may be possible.

If one’s body can’t be harmed by conventional means, he won’t need weapon to be safe. At least it’s fresh after eternal pro-guns vs no-guns holywar. If anything like this could be real that would make individual more independent, including lesser possible pressure from government.

Not related to previous, back to communism/USSR/etc. An illustration on how certain issues were viewed at different times:

In pre-soviet Russia homosexual behavior among men was not something extraordinary. It was not considered as “proper healthy behavior” but existed in certain male communities, at times in the form of local subcultures (like a “male bath subculture” in early 1900s) or in closed male communities far away from civilization and women (goldmines, etc). It seems that early Soviets almost legalized “family of two men”. I guess it could become like nowadays “gay marriage” with economic guarantees from the state like the priority in inheritance, treatment-related decision for a partner in coma state at the hospital, etc.)

Then during Stalin period homosexual behavior became a criminal offense. In prisons and labor camps homosexuals were treated if not as “right and proper” as “normal” men, but were not segregated until 1950s at least. But then the radical turn took place, and homosexuals became pariahs, lower prison caste with no rights. That was inspired by authorities to be able to have leverage over other prisoners. At same time it was considered “not homosexual” if a “normal” prisoner had sex with pariah if “normal” playing active role.

A 180 degree turn.

upd re-read and edited a bit

Communism works against human greed and hatred. Capitalism works with it to produce a decent outcome. Of course, in practice it’s a lot more complex, but the gist of it is “be a Communist and fight greed and envy” or “be a Capitalist and make the most of your greed”. In essence, with Communism it’s everybody getting a fraction of everything and with capitalism, some people getting a tonne of something (and often wasting it) and everybody else getting zilch.
Capitalism = “greed is good”.
You should read one of Iain M. Banks’ Culture novels. Truly worthwhile (and adult, though not pornographic) sci-fi.

@PatriotSaint

“What seems to be (almost) always skipped in discussions about communism is the human nature. I have a terrible suspicion that it’s not the Evil Communist Ideology that curses ppl and forces them to commit crimes but certain ppl WILL commit crimes regardless of official ideology given the chance. That was Captain Obvious ;D

Exactly, Player609!

Crimes will always be committed regardless of ideology.

That is why there are prisons in capitalist countries for CRIMINALS (aka people who commit crimes) to be held in.

In communist countries, there are prisons (aka political prison camps) at the command of criminals who send thousands of innocent people (aka people who have not committed crimes… well, a crime is whatever Our Great Leader feels should be at the moment in communist countries) to their deaths.

And maybe you guys should make a different topic for hi-tech production and such, which has nothing to do directly with this topic. It’s an interesting topic but it doesn’t belong here.