Gay Marriage page 106

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racists are social conservatives

I will disagree with you on that point.
Consider some social liberals advocating aid for minorities.
That action implies that minorities are in necessity of aid and are therefore inferior.
It’s a subtle racism.

To be honest, racists are everyone.

 
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Just wanted to point out that the statement that racists are social conservatives is false as this implies that all racists are social conservatives. You could be a racist and not be a social conservative.

Being racist is feeling superior to people of other races, disliking them, and discriminating against them. A racist social conservative tends to be anti-immigration, hates Mexicans, Mexican-Americans, etc. A racist cannot be socially liberal since liberalism is about egalitarianism—an ideology a racist despises.

Edit: actually, I reflected upon this point after reading TheAznSensation’s post, see below.

We tend to learn a lot from those who challenge our beliefs, and I would think you’d probably get much more out of something that challenged your thoughts on things rather than reenforcing them with the same old talking points.

I agree that you can learn a lot from others’ beliefs. I will be encountering many, many different beliefs next year in tertiary education. It’s not as if everyone here is politically left-wing, so yes, my beliefs will be challenged; especially since I hold beliefs such as my views on monarchy, suicide and drugs that are controversial even here.

Also, in high school there aren’t that many talking points and what tends to be found is students having their parents’ beliefs. I have had discussions regarding the economy which were controversial amongst my school’s farmers and I have discussed subjects such as race, sexuality, etc. here. However, at the ages of say, 16, 17, 18, in a conservative school regarding these topics there is not much to learn about except the fact that there are many homophobic youth amongst a conservative high school. Not a shocking discovery, but there is not too much to discover having discussions with people of this age. However, there are some libertarians and the sort with whom I have had good, rational discussions. I’m not sure how political the high schoolers of your age were, but mine barely were.

I will disagree with you on that point.
Consider some social liberals advocating aid for minorities.
That action implies that minorities are in necessity of aid and are therefore inferior.
It’s a subtle racism.

To be honest, racists are everyone.

Actually, I’ll concede on that point. I do despise liberals who want to aid (in our case) Maoris and Pacific Islanders, but have little to no regard for the poor whites, Asians, or of other races/ethnicities. All poor people should be aided, regardless of race. (Same goes for giving scholarships to people literally just for their race…)

 
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Juame & Bob T. CoolGuy, I’ll respond to yer posts later. ATM, I’ve got only a short time, so I’ll do a quickie for tenco.

Originally posted by tenco1:

Okay, I don’t really care what side of the arugment you’re on, but this guy [Bates] is just… This guy, man. I mean, I’m used to people one here being hyppocritical as all fuck, but you’d think that an actual political official would consider the other side of the argue- Oh right, never-mind, I jusr remembered that this isn’t back in the day where people actually had to think about what they’re saying.

What can I say?
YOU ARE DEAD ON.
America’s political climate, particularly on the Right, has become increasingly polarized…to the point that it is so cliched and is fodder for comedians.

Bates is not only demonstrating a lack of ability to look at both sides (ALL sides?) of an issue….HE IS MAKING A VERY HUGE, IGNORANT statement in that video when he talks about “the will of the ppl” being more important that the rights of Gays to marry.

He is showing the same ignorance that jake-o does when he touts how America is a Republic (govt. by a Constitution) rather than a Democracy (govt. by a simple majority)…but, then turns around and defends his bigotry against Gays by saying a strong majority of Americans (he’s wrong on this, has been shown he is, and yet maintains he is right) are against Gay marriage and their will should prevail.

Bates is soooooo fucking eaten up by his bigoted bias that he fails to understand that the ppl’s will is shit when it comes to CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED RIGHTS.

While ppl like Bates tend to make me hang my head in shame (as a fellow American to him), shake my head in utter disgust, give me a headache knowing that such ignorant “hate” even exists and is so fucking influential in how much it hurts & harms his fellow Americans….it is ppl like him that are the Poster Children that helps shine a light on just how really screwed our society’s mores currently are and these ppl obviously are an aid in educating society so that it can correct these egregious wrongs.

I’m doing MY part to “spread the word” about how Constitutional Rights trump “ppl’s will”.
THAT is the important message that needs to be understood by Americans.

 
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Originally posted by karmakoolkid:
America’s political climate, particularly on the Right, has become increasingly polarized…to the point that it is so cliched and is fodder for comedians.

Well, specifically I was talking about how before most modern media, politicians had to write thought-out letters because that was the norm and really the main method of communication, excluding talking to one another personally, which if it wouldn’t make it sound less completely stupid and hyppocritical, it would sound a little more fancy, (okay, I’m really going out on a limb on this one) and if the letter didn’t sound smart or thought out it would at best be ignored and at worst be ridiculdes, but now you can say stupid shite and not have to hear yourself.

But yes, politics on the right and a little less on the left have become really…. Weird, to say the least.

 
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I’m not gay at all but all I have to say on this is that if you truly believe you have the right to decide who people marry than something is wrong with your thinking process. And also why you would even care to do that is just ridiculous. Mind your own business and go marry who you please!

 
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wrayman, why should the 90 to 99% of the American people give up all of their morals, values, and traditions to please a few oddballs?

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

wrayman, why should the 90 to 99% of the American people give up all of their morals, values, and traditions to please a few oddballs?

Hyperbole ahoy! There’s a hyperberg off the port side, Cap’n!

Seriously Jhco, try not to go to ludicrous extremes when phrasing your arguments; you’ll have more success at convincing others your arguments are other than silly.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Personally, I wouldn’t care if they all got aids and croaked.

Originally posted by jhco50:

wrayman, why should the 90 to 99% of the American people give up all of their morals, values, and traditions to please a few oddballs?


If ya start “connecting the dots” on what jhco says about Gays….
ya’ll soon see that he is ALL OVER THE PLACE.
These last two quotes should be enough in-&-of-themselves to convince most any sane person that his attitude is one that is very “far afield” of what is relvant on this issue.
That’s some really sad shit.
 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

wrayman, why should the 90 to 99% of the American people give up all of their morals, values, and traditions to please a few oddballs?

So it’s all-or-noting now with morals? Well, it looks like most of Earth is doomed.

Seriosuly, though, it’s much more than 10% of America who’ve already “given up” all their “morals.”


Side-note: Is anyone else just now noticing the amount of bat-shit in the far anti-freedom to have a legal spouse side of the arugment?

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by jhco50:

wrayman, why should the 90 to 99% of the American people give up all of their morals, values, and traditions to please a few oddballs?

Hyperbole ahoy! There’s a hyperberg off the port side, Cap’n!

Seriously Jhco, try not to go to ludicrous extremes when phrasing your arguments; you’ll have more success at convincing others your arguments are other than silly.

It’s too bad you are so near sighted on this. You and Karma think you are the only ones who have a valid argument or opinion, and lets be honest. neither one of you really has an argument other than the same crap you have been spewing throughout this thread. It’s always hyperbole when someone else expresses anything. As if you two are so all knowing.

Karma, why is it my attitude is so far afield from what is relevant? Could it possibly be you who are not on the main track of this issue? You two just amaze me at how close minded you are, and yet you accuse all of the opposite opinions as wrong. You two are are so naive.

Tenco, you are probably right. Morals don’t seem to exist among the left anymore. Val;ues are non-existant and honesty is just not part of their equation. Your idea of freedom is the use of anarchy to control the majority of people. The minority making the rules for all of society. Sorry buddy, as Karma would say…that is the tail wagging the dog.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:
You and Karma think you are the only ones who have a valid argument or opinion,

Well obviously, people who agree with each other tend to think that they’re opinions are the more correct ones.

neither one of you really has an argument other than the same crap you have been spewing throughout this thread.

And yours has changed a lot?

It’s always hyperbole when someone else expresses anything.

Oh come on, now you’re just trying.

As if you two are so all knowing.

Obligatory remark about pot-kettle-black.

Karma, why is it my attitude is so far afield from what is relevant?

Well you’re basically saying “let all the gays die,” and “’Murica is going to die because of this,” and that’s really not subsatntial in any argument.

Could it possibly be you who are not on the main track of this issue?

Because….?

You two just amaze me at how close minded you are, and yet you accuse all of the opposite opinions as wrong.

Partially because most of the (more resonable) arguemtns from the other side of the arguemtn can be countered with evidence, as seen in many of Vika’s posts.

You two are are so naive.

Says the guy who still thinks he speaks for the majority of Americans.

Tenco, you are probably right. Morals don’t seem to exist among the left anymore. Val;ues are non-existant and honesty is just not part of their equation. Your idea of freedom is the use of anarchy to control the majority of people. The minority making the rules for all of society. Sorry buddy, as Karma would say…that is the tail wagging the dog.

Okay, where’s that Youtube clip of people facplaming, because I want to spam the shit out of that here.

 
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jhco, you really should not be criticising vika, karma, and any other person who supports same-sex marriage for making arguments you are incapable of rationally responding to. Why? Because there is literally, and I mean literally, no non-fallacious and logical argument against same-sex marriage. Give me one.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:
You two just amaze me at how close minded you are, and yet you accuse all of the opposite opinions as wrong.

I’ll save this somewhere so that I can show my kids what irony means, should they ever ask me.



Originally posted by jhco50:

wrayman, why should the 90 to 99% of the American people give up all of their morals, values, and traditions to please a few oddballs?

They don’t have to.
If this is your argument – and from what you have been saying throughout this thread I have to assume that it is – you really don’t have one.

People who want to marry someone of the opposite sex could still do that, even if true homosexual marriage was available.
People who want to marry at a church that only marries one man and one woman in a religious ceremony could still do that, even if true homosexual marriage was available.

They wouldn’t have to give up anything. The rules for them would not change in the least.

If you have an argument, post it already! We are all waiting, but despite your constant whining about how this all is going to somehow ruin everything you are simply not delivering.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:
Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by jhco50:

wrayman, why should the 90 to 99% of the American people give up all of their morals, values, and traditions to please a few oddballs?

Hyperbole ahoy! There’s a hyperberg off the port side, Cap’n!

Seriously Jhco, try not to go to ludicrous extremes when phrasing your arguments; you’ll have more success at convincing others your arguments are other than silly.

It’s too bad you are so near sighted on this.

Well, since one is typically unable to see any great distance when their head is firmly planted up their ass on an issue….then I guess YOU most certainly are an expert on what near-sightedness is. However, such limitations usually extend to being unable to make much of any kind of accurate assessments of the sight capabilities on issues of others….pretty much due to the near-total lack of ability to even see the issue….AT ALL. At least see a reasonable amount of the parameters involved and use a rational mind to assess them. After all, one who jams their head up their ass usually wouldn’t be considered very rational….eh?

You and Karma think you are the only ones who have a valid argument or opinion,

Ya know, jake-o,,, this fixation ya have w/ me…and, of late, has extended to vika…has risen to epic magnitude. This is because it is two-fold. 1) ya haven’t noticed (or at least acknowledged…even worse if ya’ve noticed) that several others on this forum are making the same arguements. 2) ya haven’t noticed that,,to varying degrees (as has been show in many links put up about polls taken on this issue),,a small & large (depending on the issue) MAJORITY of Americans have no real problems on the WHOLE Gay issue and specifically on Gay marriage.

If one factors out the “old farts” who want to “conserve” the old status quo,,,if one factors out the obvious asshole bigots,,,if one factors out the ignorant who haven’t a clue that even if it were 99% of Americans who are against Gays…it doesn’t matter because (as YOU so luv to tout) we aren’t a democracy,, we are a republic and as such,, out Constitution is the thing that says what is right or wrong. Gays have CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, too. If one factors out all of this bullshit, ya’re left w/ numbers very close to those ya mention.

They are able to intelligently assess issues in an adult manner and respond accordingly.

and lets be honest. neither one of you really has an argument other than the same crap you have been spewing throughout this thread.

jake-o, I always find it quite entertaining when ya take what is thrown at ya…fold, staple, spindle, & otherwise mutilate it….then toss it back at us and delude yerself into believing ya’ve won the point.

It’s always hyperbole when someone else expresses anything. As if you two are so all knowing.

Do I really need to point out the 800 pound purple gorilla sitting on the sofa in the living room?

Karma, why is it my attitude is so far afield from what is relevant?

WHAT?
Do ya want me to read back to ya the entire 106 pages of this thread?
Esp. the latest ones where ya’re spouting nothing BUT pure idiotic shit on the issue. (see above quotes of yours).

Could it possibly be you who are not on the main track of this issue?

Most anything could be “possible”.
However, what is LIKELY?
It is those things that are considered to be RATIONAL.
And, bub….on this and some other issues on this forum….ya “fail the test”, ya’ve been measured and have come up short.

You two just amaze me at how close minded you are,…

Do ya mean close-minded or closed-minded? Yes, she & I are close in our opinions on several (many?) issues….esp. on this one.
BUT NO, it is NOT we who are closed-minded on it.
It is YOU whom wears this millstone about YOUR neck.

and yet you accuse all of the opposite opinions as wrong.

Deeeerrrrrrr….likely because they ARE wrong.
That is if YOU were to be a little more specific here.
We think ya’ll are right in that ya have a right to your opinions.
We think your opinions are manifested and pulled from your asses.

You two are are so naive.

I would NOT accept anything other than this from YOU.
It soooooo fits several of the criteria I’ve mentioned above.

Tenco, you are probably right. Morals don’t seem to exist among the left anymore. Val;ues are non-existant and honesty is just not part of their equation.

Aha.
Ya see?
Right there ya’ve shown yer penchant for seeing what ya want to see in order to delude yerself into a position of self-indulgent righteousness. tenco DID NOT SPECIFY the right or the left. YOU make that distinction….likely because YOU are soooo hair-triggered at being biased that ya manage to shoot yerself in the foot on most any rational issue that doesn’t agree w/ ya. Ya really have to stop listening to "shit-talk-radio & Faux Snooze.

Your idea of freedom is the use of anarchy to control the majority of people.

Of course YOU think this.
YOU HAVE TO.
It’s the only way any of the social changes happening across American can jibe w/ YOUR archaic, bigoted logic on these many evolving issues.

The minority making the rules for all of society

NO.
NO.
NO.
How many times must we tell YOU that it is that small piece of paper that is the supreme “rules-maker”?
What is YOUR problem that YOU manage to speak out of both sides of yer mouth in regards to the Constitution? Ya sooooo luv to tout how most Americans and “ALL” of those in other nations don’t know shit about it. YET, ya so often & so completely demonstrate how little YOU know of it.

Sorry buddy, as Karma would say…that is the tail wagging the dog.

Hey.
I won’t have ya using my shit.
That is: if ya’re gonna use it in a manner to prove just how ignorant ya are on an issue and much of the supporting data ya use to prove this blinding ignorance of yours.

NOW, please call this a rant.
I would be most disappointed if ya don’t.
Plus, pray tell…why is it that YOU ALWAYS assess ALL my rebuttals to ALL of your posts as being rants.
Then, tell us why ya say ya’re not gonna read my (and others) posts and then turn right around and respond to them.

What is YOUR next “trick”?
Leaving the site only to return again….and again….and again?
I may have to leave the site.
YOUR penchant for masochistic indulgence is beginning to make ME feel like I’m becoming a sadistic dance partner in having “discussions” w/ YOU on these socio-political issues.
This is something I find to be loathsome….
largely cuz I seem unable to stop it….
LOL

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

wrayman, why should the 90 to 99% of the American people give up all of their morals, values, and traditions to please a few oddballs?


They don’t have to.
If this is your argument – and from what you have been saying throughoutthis thread I have to assume that it is – you really don’t have one.


People who want to marry someone of the opposite sex could still do that, even if true homosexual marriage was available.
People who want to marry at a church that only marries one man and one woman in a religious ceremony could still do that, even if true homosexual marriage was available.


They wouldn’t have to give up anything. The rules for them would not change in the least.


If you have an argument, post it already! We are all waiting, but despite your constant whining about how this all is going to somehow ruin everything you are simply not delivering.

But the sanctity of marriage! I mean, come on.


Seriously though, 90%-99% wouldn’t be giving up all of their morals, or their values, or their traditions, or any combination of the three. It’s hyperbole because there is nothing about the statement which is accurate.

 
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I wouldn’t even call it a hyperbole.
It’s either a false assumption or a lie.
Gays having the ability to marry legally does not force anyone to give up their personal morality, values or traditions in any way shape or form.

Unless your morality includes: “Don’t allow homosexual marriage to be legal.”

 
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Originally posted by EPR89:
Originally posted by jhco50:
You two just amaze me at how close minded you are, and yet you accuse all of the opposite opinions as wrong.

I’ll save this somewhere so that I can show my kids what irony means, should they ever ask me.

I’m going to enjoy shaming the homophobes I know in real life in fifty years’ time when they have grandchildren.

Me in an old person care center overhearing a conversation… "So granddad, are you telling me that people didn’t believe in equal rights for something as frivolous and random as sexuality? …And all this on the basis of the so-called “sanctity of marriage” even though in the Bible it was sanctimonious to marry your slaves, concubines, and a myriad of wives?" I interject, “Yes, and your grandfather was one of them, one of the homophobes who attempted his best at keeping homosexuals in the dark ages.” They step aback and look at their grandfather, “Wow, fuck you, granddad. So your granddad was racist and you learned nothing of his intolerance? I’m never visiting you again. Go die.”

Ah, to see homophobes’ families despise them as much as homophobes despise equality will be truly a glorious time in my later years of life. I’ll enjoy destroying family ties as they do on a daily basis being against the equality of marriage.

 
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Originally posted by JaumeBG:
They step aback and look at their grandfather, “Wow, fuck you, granddad. So your granddad was racist and you learned nothing of his intolerance? I’m never visiting you again. Go die.”

Uh, yeah…I don’t think that’s going to happen. I doubt the conversation would take place, and even if it did people have a soft spot for their families and more inherent patience than that before they write them off.

May be a stupid question, but do you have any children Jaume?

 
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Originally posted by JaumeBG:
Originally posted by EPR89:
Originally posted by jhco50:
You two just amaze me at how close minded you are, and yet you accuse all of the opposite opinions as wrong.

I’ll save this somewhere so that I can show my kids what irony means, should they ever ask me.

I’m going to enjoy shaming the homophobes I know in real life in fifty years’ time when they have grandchildren.

Me in an old person care center overhearing a conversation… "So granddad, are you telling me that people didn’t believe in equal rights for something as frivolous and random as sexuality? …And all this on the basis of the so-called “sanctity of marriage” even though in the Bible it was sanctimonious to marry your slaves, concubines, and a myriad of wives?" I interject, “Yes, and your grandfather was one of them, one of the homophobes who attempted his best at keeping homosexuals in the dark ages.” They step aback and look at their grandfather, “Wow, fuck you, granddad. So your granddad was racist and you learned nothing of his intolerance? I’m never visiting you again. Go die.”


Ah, to see homophobes’ families despise them as much as homophobes despise equality will be truly a glorious time in my later years of life. I’ll enjoy destroying family ties as they do on a daily basis being against the equality of marriage.

Well since you used the wrong word in you dissertation, I will respond only vaguely. If you wish to use the bible to make your argument for gay marriage, you need to read it. It just so happens laying down with another man is one of those deadly sins that gets you a one way pass into hell…but hey, maybe you are using one of those gay bibles they now publish.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:
If you wish to use the bible to make your argument for gay marriage, you need to read it.

Well you obviously don’t like comprehending what you read, as it’s pretty clear that he’s using parts of the Bible to clarify just how irrelevant a lot the of the Bible is in modern society.

 
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Then he should make himself clear, as that is not what I got from it. I have something to do and will be on a bit later tonight.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Then he should make himself clear, as that is not what I got from it.

Again: lack of reading comprehension.

 
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Being gay is a sin, but does it make someone go automatically to hell? I thought the only thing that did that was lack of salvation.

Biblically speaking, here’s a pretty decent explanation. Some of the more specific parts:

“It means that rejecting Jesus – not homosexuality or theft or adultery or any other sin – is ultimately what sends a person to hell…….Is practicing homosexuality a sin? Yes. But so are lots of other things you do – lots of other things ALL people do. And Christ’s invitation is the same for you as it is for every person, “repent and believe” (Mark 1:15) “for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10:1-21)”

Which is kind of what I thought. Homosexuality = sin, but =/= eternal damnation. So I say to you again, jhco—quit fearmongering.

 
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Me in an old person care center overhearing a conversation… “So granddad, are you telling me that people didn’t believe in equal rights for something as frivolous and random as sexuality? …And all this on the basis of the so-called “sanctity of marriage” even though in the Bible it was sanctimonious to marry your slaves, concubines, and a myriad of wives?” I interject, “Yes, and your grandfather was one of them, one of the homophobes who attempted his best at keeping homosexuals in the dark ages.” They step aback and look at their grandfather, “Wow, fuck you, granddad. So your granddad was racist and you learned nothing of his intolerance? I’m never visiting you again. Go die.”

I’m sure that’s exactly what will happen.

 
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If I had a grandfather who was racist and talked to me about how he liked being racist and liked discrimination because only whites should do this and that, only whites should live in [insert country], then yes, issendorf, I’d hardly talk to my grandfather because they’d be a disgusting individual with a lack of morality. Homophobia will be in fifty years as outdated as racism is today.

Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by jhco50:

Then he should make himself clear, as that is not what I got from it.

Again: lack of reading comprehension.

Of course it’s about the irrelevance and outdatedness of the Bible… Sorry, I thought that was clear to everyone. Maybe not to you.

The same way we ignore so many parts of the Bible, this should be another one. If the Bible can get a moral thing as easy as slavery wrong, why should we trust it as our moral compass for homosexuality?