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Ok, this thread has been created as a continuation of a very popular topic in the Debate Forum thread. Basically, we wanted to move on to other, more debate-oriented, topics, but didn’t want this very interesting one to die. I’ve posted the last few posts from the debate thread in order to get things going. Please, try to keep it civil and intellectual, and have fun. :)
> when Jesus died on the cross, all our sins died with him. He died a horrible death so that we may live eternally with God, our Father.
Are you kidding me? Crucifixion was a way of killing people used by romans, and they killed lots of people besides jesus. The only reason you believe that jesus’s crusifixion was important is because some of the people he preached to decided he was some kind of holy saint, took the bible, rewrote it using their imagination, and then spread the word. And now for some facts:
Crucifixion is an ancient method of execution, where the condemned is tied or nailed to a large wooden cross and left to hang until dead.
This form of execution was widely practiced in Ancient Rome and in neighbouring Mediterranean cultures
Crucifixion was used for slaves, rebels, pirates and especially-despised enemies and criminals.
> The only reason you believe that jesus’s crusifixion was important is because some of the people he preached to decided he was some kind of holy saint, took the bible, rewrote it using their imagination, and then spread the word.
We don’t believe he is a holy saint (only Jews and some other religions believe that). They didn’t rewrite the bible. They wrote the New Testament after Jesus lived showing a lot of What he did. The Old Testament couldn’t have been rewritten because it’s the same as the Jew’s and They didn’t believe Jesus was the Son of God so they wouldn’t have to rewrite it. Also, if the New Testament was false, then all of the eyewitnesses of Jesus’s miracles would have rejected the bible and told what really happen.
What eye witnesses? Have you ever met one. If they were written about in the book it is just like saying that voldemort had fallen 9 years ago and that there are many eye witnesses to support that fact.
If what Jesus did was true then there would have been many witnesses of Jesus’s miracles alive when the New Testament was written (it was finished about 50 years after his death and resurrection). If there weren’t any eye witnesses than it would’ve been impossible for it to have been true and they would’ve rejected the bible.
Things can be covered up gimsily. It could even be that, “Jesus” was just a guy good at magic tricks and had learnt a few things before his time, and performed them.
History can easily get muddled up.
Eggy, lets just say the the Bible is a whole bunch of crap… Do you have any idea how many other books were written back then full of crap? Doesn’t it seem peculiar that the Bible is the only book that has endured through the ages? Don’t you find it interesting that science has proven some, if not most, of what the Bible says?
Also, about Jesus dying on the Cross, He did not “combat” the devil per sey, but he defeated DEATH, not the Devil, Death. Think about this, if your son died so that all of humanity could live eternally, and you had the power to bring him back from the dead, would you? Of course you would, even if you hated your son, after that sacrifice you would bring him back from the dead.
Also, if there was no evil in the world, God could walk with us(Like in the garden of Eden, be fore man fell from grace) so what kind of faith would that require? Zero. He wants us to have to go through the trials and tribulations of believing in him, the persecutions, the hatred, so that he may see that we truly love him, and that we are not just in it for Heaven, that we actually want to glorify him, and that we want to serve him. Don’t you see? We do not have to earn our way into heaven, but we do have to commit to God, and accept Christ as our personal Lord and savior. That’s all I have to say on the issue right now, and I vote we put it to rest. If anyone else would like it, I will make a topic concerning this issue.
> It could even be that, “Jesus” was just a guy good at magic tricks and had learnt a few things before his time, and performed them.
I knew it! The Second Coming is already upon us! Jesus Christ is… David Blaine!
> I knew it! The Second Coming is already upon us! Jesus Christ is… David Blaine!
> If what Jesus did was true then there would have been many witnesses of Jesus’s miracles alive when the New Testament was written (it was finished about 50 years after his death and resurrection). If there weren’t any eye witnesses than it would’ve been impossible for it to have been true and they would’ve rejected the bible.
You really don’t understand do you… They didn’t believe in jesus because he had done those things, they believed in him because he told them he did those things, and they invented the rest and made it a religion after he died. If what you say is true and we should believe in the new testament because it was written many years ago and because people believed in it, then we also need to believe in the Qur’an, and in allah and in Muhamad the prophet. Don’t you think?
> I knew it! The Second Coming is already upon us! Jesus Christ is… David Blaine!
nah, if anyone it chris angel, even though alot of his stunts you can find how he did it…
even so…he could be the anti christ, my sister thinks that
> Jesus could not have been a magician because he rose people from the dead (some we had been dead for days)
Once again you are saying something is true because it was written about in a book. Therefore magic, magicians, and dragons, are all true and exist in the real world.
> If you can find one thing in the Bible that is false and you can prove it, then tell me.
If you can prove to me one thing in the bible is real then tell me O.o
The bible can never be proven or disprove because as we said earlier there are no eyewitness accounts. Think about it. Christianity was a cult for about 300 years and only a couple hundred or thousand actually believed in Christ during that time. I’m pretty sure everyone other than the cult members believed he was not the messiah but no one ever decided to write any books about it. Then somewhere around 300AD Christianity started to get around and then the Roman Empire adopted Christianity, as their new religion because emperor Constantine saw what he thought was a cross-shaped star in the sky. He then ordered his troops to paint that cross on their shields and then he won the battle and attributed it to Christianity. Now when you look at a star or any light out of focus doesn’t it blur just a little into the shape of a cross? Historical records show that Constantine had a larger force and a good strategic position. Records also show he was deeply religious and on one occasion he claimed to have seen the Roman god Apollo in a vision. If you ask me I think Constantine was looking everywhere for a sign of the gods and when he think he thought he found one he followed it through.
Anyways im a 100% Athiest and I don’t belive in any religion. All I think religion is, is an answer to death. I personaly belive when you die everything ends. you cease to exist.
Gimsily, did you mean to say that “Jews and Muslims believe that…”?
While I’m at it, since this post seems to be about Jesus, and not God… I’ll go ahead and say that I far prefer the view of Jesus from the faith of Islam and Bahá’í, in that he was a prophet or messenger from God, but not God’s literal son. Perhaps metaphorically though!
@crazycruiser, the only book to endure through the ages? remember, there is many other religions all with there own, bibles, books, scrolls and walls carved with holy words. Theres also smaller guilds, cults and collective groups that believe in there own variations and things.
I’d be more willing to believe religion if it just made a little sense……I just don’t get some of the things honestly…..
You have to sign a piece of paper before sex is allowed?
You’re not allowed to do any of the sins, but can simply repent? so who goes to hell?
Adam and Eve wouldn’t have been able to get married would they?
Adam and eves children would have had to do it with each other…so thats incest…
incest is ok, but being gay is not?
Everyone lived within walking distance of Noahs ark?
People claim praying has cured loves ones cancer….yet they can’t cure amputee’s?
theres millions more of course
Yep, DarthNader is correct. All what he said? True. You can’t argue with historical facts documented in historical documents gimsily, forgot?
> There was a man named Jesus who performed miracles. Jews and Mormans believe that Jesus did miracles and they have it recorded in their documents. Plus the Bible has been compared many times by other historical and factual books and documents.
I’m a jew. Not a religious one of course, I don’t believe in god, but I consider myself a jew as in my nationality. Anyway, I don’t believe that Jesus did miracles. See?
Documants is not something you can record on. I could’ve written harry potter 3000 years ago and start telling people about how this story is true and they would’ve all followed me and believed in harry potter, simply because 3000 years ago, just like now, people were looking for answers. What happens after you die? Why should we not sin? And so on. And so, the bible was written, in order to answer those questions. But since then we have evolved, and through the years people started really thinking about the bible and understanding that this just couldn’t happen! Now you tell me. What was so special about the time that the bible was written, that god just kept sending messangers and miracles and stuff? I mean, has anyone seen any miracle in the last 100 years? I haven’t.
> If you’re saying that things written in a book aren’t true, what about the history books, the Bible is just like a giant history book.
No, you take it as a history book because that’s the way you want to take it. That’s they way you were raised, and that is the way your parents and preacher or… whatever, taught you to think. But isn’t it strange that it is the only history book that speaks about miracles and supernatural things? All the other ones are… FICTION.
> If you can prove to me one thing in the bible is real then tell me O.o
For the record, there is a lot that is true in the Bible. I dare say most of it is true, despite being an agnostic myself. Many of the historical facts, even that Jesus was a real person (not the miracles part) are generally confirmed by historians. Gimsily’s challenge is much more valid – if you can’t find something notably false in hundreds of pages, that’s at least somewhat noteworthy.
I was talking about the miracles and unnatural things, not the historical facts. As we all know, every lie, every story, every myth, is based on something that is true. But as I said before, just because we can confirm that the real places that are written about in harry potter are real, doesn’t mean that all the unnatural things actually happened.
Well, I think the most interesting thing about the Bible that might be “provable” would be the prophesies. My understanding is that a lot (if not nearly all) (if not all) of the prophesies in the Bible did come true, and generally with startling accuracy. This is the one fact that has made me really look seriously at the Bible. There are only two credible defenses that I see: try to find/argue that some of the prophesies were false, or argue that the Bible was in fact written after all of these things happen (which I think we probably can prove is actually false). A third possible defense is that many prophesies were made and only true ones were selected for the final version – though again I would have a hard time believing that not a single Biblical scholar has found evidence of this sort of editing (while yes, entire books were selected, I don’t think passages were edited).
All that said, here is my response regarding Tyre: you need to check your facts. Here’s the Wikipedia excerpt on the early history:
> It was often attacked by Egypt, besieged by Shalmaneser V, who was assisted by the Phoenicians of the mainland, for five years, and by Nebuchadnezzar (586–573 BC) for thirteen years, without success, although a compromise peace was made in which Tyre paid tribute to the Babylonians. It later fell under the power of the Persians.
> In 332 BC, the city was conquered by Alexander the Great, after a siege of seven months in which he built the causeway from the mainland to the island, but it continued to maintain much of its commercial importance until the Christian era. The presence of the causeway affected water currents nearby, causing sediment to build up, making the connection permanent.
> In 315 BC, Alexander’s former general Antigonus begins his own siege of Tyre, taking the city a year later.
> In 126 BC, Tyre regained its independence (from the Seleucids) and was allowed to keep much of its independence when the area became a Roman province in 64 BC.
I think that’s pretty far from “being destroyed by King Nebuchadnezzar”. And, while many nations have attacked Tyre, it’s a far cry from the prophesy:
> I will hurl many nations against you, as the sea hurls its waves. They shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down its towers. I will scrape its soil from it and make it a bare rock. It shall become, in the midst of the sea, a place for spreading nets. I have spoken, says the Lord GOD.
Sure, they were attacked. Yeah, it was pretty close – and perhaps close enough to be noteworthy. But with a current population of 117,000, I have to say the prophesy is certainly _not_ 100% correct.
gimsly when I called Christianity a cult I wasn’t trying to offend anyone. Dictionary.com describes a cult being “a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies, usually small amount of followers.”.
Also I want to bring up the Vatican’s creation of purgatory many years after the bible was written. An example of religion trying to make the great beyond a comfortable place. This supports my claim that all religion is, is an answer to death. Look at such theories as reincarnation and heaven and hell.
Also if there really is a god would he need you to tell him how great he is every week at church, or every day at the dinner table? I’m cool with people living by the bibles codes and laws but that one is my least favorite. My belief is that people do these things as (for lack of a better word) a bribe to get a better seat in the afterlife.
austin – the point is that we’re looking for truth. Yes, some are bashing on your religion. Others are defending it. Please don’t take any of this as a personal attack. You’re welcome to join in of course. The idea is that these sorts of debates should help solidify your beliefs. Or, if they don’t, than perhaps one should re-evaluate one’s beliefs. In either case, I think it is a worthwhile intellectual endeavor.
Well here’s my view ( why I’m jumping into the hot tub, I know not)
As a brief history, I had grown up as a practicing, nondenominational protestant Christian for most of my life, and it wasn’t too long ago that I lessened my views and practices of and on my Christian beliefs. I began to look, out of curiosity, on the theory of evolution (macroevolution specifically) and was taught it by a great teacher. Me, being a seemingly logical person, or at least I like to believe I can be at times, eventually accepted the facts of evolution as true from the eyes of science. However, I can’t give up my belief that there’s something out there in addition to evolution.
Since then, I have come to view the Bible as, at least for much of it, a set of moral guidelines. A couple stories led me to this conclusion. One is the Genesis Account, or to put it more accurately, the Genesis Accounts. Within the Bible there are two different stories on the creation of the world. In addition, there are two entirely different stories based on Noah’s Ark within the Good Book. Before then, I accepted the Bible, as much of my fellow men did, as an absolute truth. Since discovering these two stories, I knew that the Bible could not be absolute truth with two conflicting stories. After much internal conflict, I tend to view much of the Biblical parables as moral stories now days. Samson, Jonah and the Whale, and all of Revelations are parables or analogies. In fact, it was only in recent time that Christians even began reading the Good Book from a literal standpoint. Throughout most history, the Bible was read as a set of analogies, and was rarely ever read literally.
Even though the Bible is made up of many stories that I believe are tales and I read them metaphorically, I also read much of the Bible from a historical context. There are many instances that are historically accurate, and sometimes it’s difficult to distinguish between them. The hardest being centered around Jesus of Nazareth. Was he simply an image, another story? Or, did he really exist and perform those miracles? Personally, I have no reason to believe that, at the least, he didn’t exist. In fact, I believe that he was probably a great leader in the move against the then current day Judiasm (Which, during that time, was very corrupt with power). I have some reservations about him reviving Lazarus from the dead or walking on water, but there’s no proof that he didn’t other than scientific principals. However, if he was truly the Son of God, then I suppose he would be able to perform those miracles.
Mentioned earlier, I said I still believe in the possibility of God. Well, more accurately, I believe that there’s something out there other than pure biological evolution. Whether it’s guiding us or not, I can’t help but believe that there’s at least something out there. Not so much in aliens mind you, but in a more spiritual sense. In addition, I can’t help but believe in some aspects of the Bible, some regarding eerily accurate prophesies. However, Nostradamus, an astrologer, also made some eerily accurate prophesies.
I can’t help but look at my hand. I look at it, it’s complexity, it’s strength. I ask myself “Can this really be all due to chance of evolution?” The hand alone contains so much complexity. Nerves, bones, muscles, and fat at the macro level; and cellular division, growth, and regeneration at a more micro level. Does evolution explain these? Yes, it does, I admit. Yet, I cannot accept everything from this standpoint.
I believe that religion, of nearly any kind, is very important, whether it contains any divine truths or not. Religion keeps people together, forms communities, provides a common ideal, and usually good families. I don’t view religion as “a means to control the masses”, even if it can do so. Can religion turn cruel and corrupt? Yes, the Taliban is proof of that, but lack of religion can turn cruel as well. There is no utopia on either seat.
Well, that’s my view and reasoning. I really don’t’ know why I wrote this, perhaps it’s simply time I “come out of the closet” per se.
Also, to the recent discussion. Christianity in fact, was a cult. Surprisingly I was even taught this when I went to church. As pointed out, Christianity began in opposition of the Judaist rule of the time, and was generally practiced in secrecy (much like it is now in other parts of the world) and was considered, by all means a cult. It’s just we have a negative stigma on the word ‘cult’, and we tend think ‘sacrifice’, ‘black robes’, ‘candles and chanting’ when we think of them; that or things like Jonestown.
SIgh how do you quote again?
> That’s a simple way to put it, but not everyone believes that you have to do that. There are many different denominations of Christians who believe different ways of worship and doing things.
Then not all of you’s can be right, one of you will be wrong and have been a bad Christian.
> If you are sincere when you repent and you try not to sin again then you’ll go to heaven.
And how would he be able to tell? Some people are very good liars. People can even fool the lie detectors.
> Why not?
Because they didn’t have any of the things they needed to marry, like, a priest.
> It never says that God didn’t create anyone else. Plus laws and rules have changed over the years.
Well you’d think the 3rd, 4th and 5th person ever made would also be important enough to mention in the bible don’t ya think.
> God specifically said Marriage is between a man and a woman.
Then yes, he doesn’t like gays :P
> How hard is that to understand? Everyone lived near each other. Well, some people may have lived farther away, but it did take Noah awhile to build the ark. Although, only his family and two of every kind of animal were saved.
They must have had a pretty huge zoo then and people to take care of the animals everyday with good facilities ,Because some animals can only live in certain places of the world and need certain food, half the animals would need different climates and plants/fruit to eat.
> It’s called a prosthetic limb. God can use different ways of healing.
Prosthetic limb is made by humans, not by god, and please don’t say, “god made it happen” go to the guy who first made up the limb and try tell him his original idea is only god giving it to him and see how he feels.