Proposition 8 in California, 2008 page 3

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At what point do I become a bigot? I will be honest, although I have other reasons for supporting my position; my first reason for supporting Proposition 8 is religious beliefs. But I believe that it is okay to let our individual morals guide our voting. As such, I support the proposition in the same way that I would support a number of other issues that I feel are morally related. If there was a measure legalizing prostitution, I would be concerned about its impact on society—but my first reason for opposing the measure would be moral and religious beliefs. Similarly I would oppose measures expanding gambling, legalizing recreational drugs, or any other vice. It would seem that each of these measure would “infringe on somebody else’s rights.” After all, isn’t prostitution consensual, and doesn’t the prostitute have a “right” to determine what she wants to do with her body. Still, I would oppose such a measure legalizing prostitution, because I believe that it is morally wrong. Here I stand on election eve, in support of Prop. 8, and thus have been labeled a bigot and a homophobe because I plan to vote in accordance with my beliefs.

 
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my first reason for supporting Proposition 8 is religious beliefs.

What gives your religious believes presence over mine? Why should be make YOUR religious beliefs law and not mine?

 
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potentially the coincidence that a majority of voters could agree with him for their own reasons. democracy is pretty arbitrary like that!

that’s his explanation for why he’s supporting it, not for why others should.

 
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Here I stand on election eve, in support of Prop. 8, and thus have been labeled a bigot and a homophobe because I plan to vote in accordance with my beliefs.

What do you expect, when your beliefs are bigoted? You are going out to vote your religious ideas into secular law. There is no “good” way to describe that.

 
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potentially the coincidence that a majority of voters could agree with him for their own reasons. democracy is pretty arbitrary like that!

Democracy is a big joke… A system where the people are allowed to choose, sounds great, doesn’t it?
No thanks, it allows ignorant, uninformed people decide, affecting my future.

 
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Let’s assume that civil unions are allowed, conferring all the same benefits to same-sex couples as marriage.

Same-sex marriage then becomes a purely symbolic issue. How many laws do we have that are purely about naming something? It’s not like abortion laws receive strong arguments over what we call partial-birth abortions — they instead receive arguments about whether they should be allowed at all (and by this logic, I think that the issue of whether we allow civil unions is far more important than what we choose to call them).

The prop 8 ads are pretty ridiculous and misleading on both sides. The “yes” on prop 8 commercials imply that same-sex marriage would need to be taught in schools, while the “no” commercials imply that actual rights would be stripped away, rather than having different labels assigned. (The right to have a certain label doesn’t seem to be the implication of the commercials.)

Regardless of how you feel about the proposition, every single person will be voting one way or the other for the exact same reason — they’ll be voting on a personal level for what same-sex marriage means to them.

There’s no way around this fact. Proponents of gay marriage will commonly say, “It’s not about you; it’s about them. It doesn’t affect you.” Well, assuming civil unions are allowed, gay marriage doesn’t really “affect” anyone at all, including gay couples, does it? It’s just a label — an argument over semantics, and the definitions of a word.

Because of this fact, with all the problems in the world, it seems a little silly to me that this is what people get so worked up over. Both sides of the issue seem a little overly dramatic.

This all being said, gay marriage, to me personally, even as a heterosexual, symbolizes equality, understanding, and acceptance of the fact that gay couples can be just as loving, just as committed, and just as capable of raising a (likely adopted) family as any straight couple.

I will therefore be voting “no” on proposition 8, and supporting gay marriage at every opportunity I have to cast a ballot.

Edit: From reading Carados’s post in the other thread, I did not realize that prop 8 actually abolished civil unions. This will obviously not change how I vote, but it does make me reassess how serious the issue is and how I evaluate the “no on prop 8” ads. I therefore retract a few of my above points about how people are reacting to it.

 
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I’m not 100% it abolishes Civil Unions, I was responding to the ignorance of another poster who merely assumed they changed gay marriages to Civil Unions.

The major problem is people assume words meanings can’t be changed.

The other problem with having Civil Unions AND marriages is it creates a social version of segregation as far as marriage goes.

The current civil unions are not equal to marriages are far as the full list of legal rights married people have in CA.

I’m all for aboshling marriage for everyone at a legal level, though.

 
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Quick question, if my religion believes that Straight Marriage is immoral, can I oppress people too?

Yes.

 
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Yes.

I shall start.

 
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I’m not 100% it abolishes Civil Unions, I was responding to the ignorance of another poster who merely assumed they changed gay marriages to Civil Unions.

This video from the yes on prop 8 website (nice ads we’re getting in this thread!) seems to imply that civil unions already contain the full legal rights of a traditional marriage in California, and that prop 8 doesn’t mess with that: http://www.protectmarriage.com/video/view/9

If that’s true (not saying it is), then I retract my retraction about this whole issue just being about words, because that’s what it would be. I’ll still cast my vote in favor of gay marriage whenever I can, but this just doesn’t strike me as an important issue compared to other laws and propositions that actually change things beyond just words.

 
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Let them marry. We let sexual predators live within 100 feet of our children… what’s wrong with letting two men or two women have a paper saying “You two are stuck together now.”

 
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Meh, whenever I hear anyone suggest Civil Unions in addition to the marriage system, I say “Seperate but Equal, right?”

 
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Meh, whenever I hear anyone suggest Civil Unions in addition to the marriage system, I say “Seperate but Equal, right?”

If you’re referring to the segregation of the 1960s, I don’t believe this is a fair comparison. During that time, schools, bathrooms, drinking fountains, buses, etc. to which blacks were designated were actually inferior in quality, not just in name.

“Separate but equal” only has a negative connotation now because we all know it refers to something that actually wasn’t equal. Additionally, people were physically separated, whether it be in schools or on a bus. No one is proposing that gay couples can’t hold marriage ceremonies for their civil unions in the same places that straight couples get married.

I agree with your general sentiment, but evoking comparisons to racial segregation from the 1960s seems a little overly dramatic.

 
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my first reason for supporting Proposition 8 is religious beliefs

Marriage doesn’t just apply to religion though, otherwise atheists would never be married.

In addition, now that I’ve started to actually analyze the fliers that are going around for Prop 8, I can tell you that it’s pretty clear to see that they’re saying that homosexuals are not equal to heterosexuals. I’ll post up my reasoning why in the other thread after I’ve finished the front side of this thing.

 
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…but evoking comparisons to racial segregation from the 1960s seems a little overly dramatic.

Greg, I’d like to introduce you to Carados.

 
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Greg, I’d like to introduce you to Carados.

Have you given up your theories on gay people not existing yet?

 
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In addition, now that I’ve started to actually analyze the fliers that are going around for Prop 8, I can tell you that it’s pretty clear to see that they’re saying that homosexuals are not equal to heterosexuals.

You needed a flier to tell you that opponents of gay marriage don’t consider homosexuals equal to heterosexuals? :-P

 
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You needed a flier to tell you that opponents of gay marriage don’t consider homosexuals equal to heterosexuals? :-P

Lol. My girlfriend’s mom is for Prop 8.. so I asked her to get me a flier since I didn’t want to analyze based on websites. I guess I already sensed a push for inequality, but I had to look at the wording and pick at it one by one to get the real wording behind the words.

i.e. “… learning that same-sex marriage = traditional marriage”

You can see this as either “same-sex marriage is the same as traditional marriage” or “same-sex marriage is equal to traditional marriage”. If they claim that they need to protect children from learning equal acceptance in schools, then obviously something’s wrong. I’m just analyzing it because most people take things for face value when they read it, not so much the in-depth meanings of what’s really being said.

 
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Have you given up your theories on gay people not existing yet?

No such thing as homosexuality, just homostupidity.

I propose a whole new proposition actually, you may only be allowed to marry during pregnancy. DNA test included for correct spouses.

 
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If they claim that they need to protect children from learning equal acceptance in schools, then obviously something’s wrong.

Someone should make a parody of the “yes on 8” commercials, where concerned parents are tearfully discussing the dangers of having their children learn about interracial marriage in schools. You know, show the kid coming home from school and talking about how she learned that when she grows up, she can marry an Asian if she wants to. Then cut to the mother recoiling in horror.

 
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I propose a whole new proposition actually, you may only be allowed to marry during pregnancy. DNA test included for correct spouses.

So you’re saying that you’re going against the whole sacred “marry first then have sex” rule? I don’t think very many people would agree with you, but that’s just my opinion. I personally believe that sex should be reserved for that special someone you marry, not the other way around that marriage should be reserved for that someone you have sex with. If that were true, people who’ve had casual sex would have the most available spouses for choice. Prostitutes would have a fun time picking. Also, what would that mean for the couple with the one infertile partner? Would you say that just because they cannot reproduce that they cannot be married?

 
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Someone should make a parody of the “yes on 8” commercials where concerned parents are tearfully discussing the dangers of having their children learn about interracial marriage in schools.

Haha. A play on anti-miscegenation laws?

 
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Would you say that just because they cannot reproduce that they cannot be married?

That was the exact thing Carados said in another thread, I was just making fun of him again.

Also,

So you’re saying that you’re going against the whole sacred “marry first then have sex” rule?

is not a rule, it’s part of a religion, which is what prop 8 is based off of. Go against one but not the other huh?

 
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is not a rule, it’s part of a religion, which is what prop 8 is based off of. Go against one but not the other huh?

Just makes up who I am, after all. I don’t believe in my religion %100, but I do take some aspects that I feel are beneficial to myself, to my family and to my friends. I think that’s pretty irrelevant to bring up at all. Back on topic.

 
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Just makes up who I am, after all. I don’t believe in my religion %100, but I do take some aspects that I feel are beneficial to myself, to my family and to my friends. I think that’s pretty irrelevant to bring up at all. Back on topic.

Have the pie and eat it too. The American dream.