U.S. Presidential Election (locked)

1843 posts

Flag Post

when the commercials start playing you know its about that time-.-

Current President of the United States
Barack Obama
&
Current Vice President of the United States
Joe Biden

VS

Republican Candidate
Mitt Romney
&
Running Mate
Paul Ryan

Who will you be voting for(if you can vote)?
Who would you vote for if you could vote?
Optional: Why?

 
Flag Post

third party.

 
Flag Post

Well, since I’m very much in the 99% ‘zone’…
I’d have to say I’m gonna go w/ Obama.
AND, likely a straight Demo. ticket for Congress,,,,
even though I might think a Repub. would be the better representative,,,
we need the House AND the Senate to help bring about SOCIALISTIC measures for America.

 
Flag Post

I’m pretty sure a lot of time and resources could be saved by doubling all elected official’s terms and removing the re-election possibility for those that have single re-election limits. It seems to me that it’s not all that often that an official doesn’t get re-elected at least once. </hijack thread>

 
Flag Post

Can’t vote, but I’d go for Obama because he seems a bit closer to the central political ground than Rommers.

 
Flag Post

It’s almost a ‘damned if you do and damned if you don’t’ question…but out of the two choices I’d vote (if I was allowed) for Obama. I’m not American so I’m basing my decision on what I’ve seen and read in the media comparing the two candidates.
I think Obama is the better of the two…

 
Flag Post

LOL! For being such a supposedly open minded person, Karma is voting a straight ticket. Even though a republican would be a better representative. And again he admits to his socialistic agenda. OMG!

So I see the regulars on here, except for Omega, are all voting Liberal, but the reasons for doing this aren’t really making any sense. Let’s look at it logically. What has Obama done for the country in the four years he has had? His first two years he had control of both houses of congress and what did he do? The bailout of the rich? Pushing Obamacare? Borrowing the country into a debt that lowered our credit rating and is possibly going to cause us bankruptcy? Is this really the person you want to be in the highest office of the land?

Neil thinks Obama is centrist, but is he really? What is a centrist? They are a middle of the road politician who doesn’t really fit either party. He is a person who has both democratic and republican leanings…Kind of neutral in the political arena. A one size fits all type of person. Now honestly, does Obama fit this definition?

Tetsuo, I’m not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you suggesting we eliminate the peoples voice and just give Obama and the Democrats a freebie? Sorry my friend, it doesn’t work like this in our country.

Flabby, You are one of the more interesting opponents on this forum. I really don’t know how to take you. I can’t really dismiss your statement as I am not a big Romney fan, but I do like his VP choice a lot. Don’t base your opinion on what you read in the media as it is not a real representation of either candidate. There are so many slanders and insults that a true picture doesn’t arise. Top that with a liberal leaning media and it becomes a bit inaccurate. Obama has had four years to make changes and instead of helping business to expand and create jobs, he has worried about giving money to rich establishments that should have failed.

I will vote for Romney. As for other choices I will weigh what they have done in office if they are incumbent and listen to what they have to say in local meetings. I may vote republican or I many vote democrat on senators and house members. It depends on what I like about them. My wife is quite about her choices but I believe she is leaning Romney. In my family, she makes her own decisions on who she wants in office.

 
Flag Post

Because I don’t want to be a bother and quote all of Jhco’s post, I’ll just say that this isn’t so much a ’You’re wrong and I’m right’ discussion as much as it is a ‘Give me your opinion.’ discussion. Additionally, Democrat ≠ Liberal. While they may be similar often, they are not the same.

Either way, due to the fact that third party have no chance of getting presidency, I’ll be voting for Barrack Obama. I do not agree with Romney or Ryan’s views, and thus will not vote for them.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by yiu113:

Because I don’t want to be a bother and quote all of Jhco’s post, I’ll just say that this isn’t so much a ’You’re wrong and I’m right’ discussion as much as it is a ‘Give me your opinion.’ discussion. Additionally, Democrat ≠ Liberal. While they may be similar often, they are not the same.

Either way, due to the fact that third party have no chance of getting presidency, I’ll be voting for Barrack Obama. I do not agree with Romney or Ryan’s views, and thus will not vote for them.

No, I am not saying they are wrong. I’m saying that they need to look at the real reasons they vote for a person. I’m saying do some research and not go by what the politicians accuse each other of.

Of course democrats lean to the left and republicans lean to the right, but not all of either party leans super far, some would be considered moderates in their parties.

In my mind, if Obama gets reelected, our country will have not only four more years of the same thing we have been going through, but we will see another drop of our credit score and much more debt. I see our country spending more then they are bringing in in taxes. We can already see this as Obama is desperate to tax anyone and everyone to keep his spending going, when we should be cutting back on our spending. I heard today that he just raided the Medicaid fund and is cutting that program back tremendously. This is a direct assault on the poor. He is planning to do away with Medicare and Medicaid in his next term. This will hurt both the elderly and the poor directly. Is this what we want?

Let me ask you Yiu, what is it you don’t like about the republican candidate and what is it you think Obama can do for the country?

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:

LOL! For being such a supposedly open minded person, Karma is voting a straight ticket. Even though a republican would be a better representative. And again he admits to his socialistic agenda. OMG!

Well. I give a shit about YOUR “assessment” of my “open-mindedness”. YOU lost any “respect” I would//could have when YOU gave your bigoted ideology on Gays & how much YOU aren’t able to let a pregnant woman decide HER fate….regardless of how she got there.

Per usual, YOU distort what someone says in order to make it fit YOUR agenda. I gave MY REASON for voting a straight ticked. YOU FAILED to acknowledge it. THIS is why I have NO respect for YOUR assessment……because it is failed, faulty, & so in “need of validation” that YOU will stoop to claptrap that is as sad as it inaccurate.

I clearly said that I USUALLY vote my conscience….regardless (well MOSTLY) of political party affiliation. BUT, I said that IN THE OVERALL PICTURE….we soooooo badly need a particular application of attention given to the needs of the “poor” & we need to send a message to the “rich” that it’s time their paid their FAIR SHARE for how life is lived in the United States of America.

BUT, jake-0…YOU already knew this about me. I’ve made it abundantly clear…..many times.
AND, yes…of course I’m a socialist
Socialism: There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them.3 They differ in the type of social ownership they advocate, the degree to which they rely on markets versus planning, how management is to be organised within economic enterprises, and the role of the state in constructing socialism.4

I’ve showed YOU that link,,,many, many times. Yet, YOU still want to—in merely another form of bigotry—lump ALL forms of socialism into ONE,,,,with that ONE being the one that YOU believe is the ONLY RIGHT ONE.

We already are a socialistic nation….at least as one of the defining aspects of our interdependent living our society does. YOU are so full of hate, mistrust, etc. of things that “govern” that YOU are unable to see just how fucked YOU are getting by those who are doing the REAL “governing”…..MONEY PPL.

Money doesn’t talk….it screams. Those w/ lots & lots of money are the ONLY ones that are heard and/or given any credence—as far as “needs//wants//desires” go—by the govt. and a whooooole lot of “average” ppl, too. Wealth & greed are “crown-of-thorns” we ignorantly wear proudly here in America. Only problem w/ that is that there are few of the wealthy, almost all of us greedy, AND…are too many of the “ignorant” ones.

By “ignorant”….I go to the base root word: Ignore=: 1.refuse to notice somebody or something: to refuse to notice or pay attention to somebody or something

Too many Americans are IGNORING what//where they “stand” in the overall picture of life in the US. We are besieged w/ “toys”, easy (fast) food, looking healthy & beautiful….we are caricatures of a cliche built on a dream….the American Dream. We have sooooo lost sight of our American Spirit that we are soooo very easily led over the cliff by our greed. AND, who is the “Pied Piper”….the ones w/ enough money to have us dancing TO THEIR TUNE OF GREED. They will play WHATEVER (translation: anything regardless of morality) needed to get us to contribute TO THEIR POCKETS.

This post is already too long to go into just how fucked I think “capitalism” has become. Let’s just say that huge corporations are the spawn of evil…and leave it at that for the time being.

My wife is quite about her choices but I believe she is leaning Romney.

Ya see…..THAT is just plain WEIRDO to ME. Just by knowing that my wife truly loves me,,,,I know how she would vote. BUT, we are two ppl who have such a deep commitment to each other that we COMMUNICATE,,,SHARE,,,DISCUSS most all issues in our lives. I’m certainly NOT going to keep such an important facet of MY life—which candiate//party best represents MY personal AND relationship interests—FROM my wife. AND, I’m certainly not “afraid” to actually KNOW what hers are.

To otherwise be so IGNORE is such a failing at a DEEPNESS-of-sharing for a relationship. In that I truly pity those that are “doomed” to live that way. Oooops,,,it appears many are “opting out” on THAT crap…..only to settle for “more-of-the-same”. I.E. Choosing to BE together,,,yet not really obtain full functioning possible.

My wife & I love to discuss issues. It gives up the benefit of seeing something from two angles….a perspective that tremendously enhances our chances for an optimum life together. my family, she makes her own decisions on who she wants in office.Well, fucking imagine that….how 21st century of ha. What I find extreeeemely interesting is that YOU don’t know what that decision is….lol
In my family, she makes her own decisions on who she wants in office.

My…o, my. How 21st century of ya. Now, if we can just get YOU to know who that is….lol

 
Flag Post

Take a pill old man. If the truth hurts you maybe you should bury your head to any real facts. You are going to have a hard time explaining to the man on the street that socialism comes in degrees and that all of their ancestors who died for your freedoms and to protect our country from your type of ideals are not going to accept your degrees of socialism argument. To them is is just socialism.

I think hate is a strong term, although I do mistrust government and people who wish to destroy our way of life. It strikes me funny that you so hate so many Americans and consider them as ignorant because they don’t agree with your philosophies. Could it be that it is you and not them that is wrong? If you want to vote democrat, that is your choice, but to malign all of the American people because they don’t follow along is just ludicrous. Why do you continue to live in a country you hate so much when you can migrate to a country that is more attuned to your ideals? This way you won’t have to put up with those lousy ignorant Americans who hold you back.

Well, some of the things you have stated about your marriage have caused me a double-take. I consider my wife a human being with her own mind and not a slave to my demands. My wife loves me too, but I don’t control her. We are partners not master and slave. You have your marriage and I have mine…or do you think you should control that aspect of American life as well?

 
Flag Post
Don’t base your opinion on what you read in the media as it is not a real representation of either candidate. There are so many slanders and insults that a true picture doesn’t arise. Top that with a liberal leaning media and it becomes a bit inaccurate.

I have heard it said that in America the ‘mainstream’ news agencies are left leaning…I think that there are, but I also think there are ‘mainstream’ right leaning news agencies.
I try to get my news from many sources…BBC, Al Jazeera, Haaretz, FOX, Slate, Hindustan Times, AFP, Reuters…I get my news only from news websites, I don’t like watching tv news – (CNN reporting usually makes my skin crawl).

I am left-leaning (I’m sure you worked that out yourself) but when I read a news article I want it to be honest and to give me only the facts… “editorials” and “comment” pieces of course are allowed to be as biased as they wish.

I can understand why you like Paul Ryan, but he’d be exactly the reason why I’d vote Obama.
I don’t know if it’s the same for you, but for me the biggest deciding factor in who to vote for first comes down to their social views. So being left-leaning I’d vote Obama…but if I was an American, such things as him wanting to have the indefinite detention powers of the NDAA, extending the Patriot Act and Obama invoking executive privilege over the ‘Fast and Furious’ documents would give me cause for concern.

 
Flag Post
So I see the regulars on here, except for Omega, are all voting Liberal

i’d probably vote for the Greens or something. and since when is socalism incompatible with open-mindedness?

Neil thinks Obama is centrist, but is he really? What is a centrist?

Obama is certainly closer to Center in global frame of refence than anyone on the Republican party. in fact by Western standarts he’s a right wing conservative.

 
Flag Post

I can’t really dismiss your statement as I am not a big Romney fan, but I do like his VP choice a lot.

Well, this has got to be a first. I find myself agreeing with jhco on something political. I see Romney as a lightweight, with no real definition of what he actually believes in or stands for. When he visited Europe he made a complete fool of himself. He was immature and gauche, definitely not a world statesman in the making. While I do not agree with much of what Ryan offers by way of solutions, for me he does show a real understanding of the economy, and I think that’s important. If he was put in charge of the nations finances, we might actually see decisions based on economic reality rather than playing to the crowd.

On the democratic side, Biden is another true lightweight who seems to specialise in saying something inappropriate. For the last four years he has been practically invisible to me. Is he really the best candidate for VP that the democrats can come up with? I am far from convinced that Obama has proved himself as a good president. He certainly hasn’t been a great one. Now over here, the NHS is a very big issue indeed, so I’m probably attaching far more importance to health care than Americans do. But in Obamacare he has made a big effort to address a long standing and very real problem that America has, and for that reason alone he would get my vote.

It’s a pity that there can be no Obama/ Ryan ticket. Pairing a man who wants to do the right things with a man who understands the numbers well enough to make some of those things happen might be enough to get America out of the doldrums. We have a similar problem in the UK. We have a prime minister who makes a lot of the right noises (a lot of the wrong ones too, it must be said), but a chancellor (finance minister) who doesn’t know his arse from his elbow, who has made some very bizarre decisions.

America has a straight choice between a lightweight with experience who has achieved something important, and another lightweight who gives every appearance of standing for nothing at all. It’s a pretty uninspiring choice. For me it would be Obama by a short head, in the hope that a second term might see him grow into a really good president.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:

Take a pill old man.

Which one, I take many….prescription and herbal?

If the truth hurts you maybe you should bury your head to any real facts.

What truth….YOURS? LOL
AND, it is YOU who does the “burying”.
Most of US here already deeply know this.

You are going to have a hard time explaining to the man on the street that socialism comes in degrees and that all of their ancestors who died for your freedoms and to protect our country from your type of ideals are not going to accept your degrees of socialism argument. To them is is just socialism.

Well…I guess I should thank YOU for that “update” on just how ignorant the AVERAGE "man-on-the-street is. I find it interesting that ya say “MAN” rather than “PERSON”….real interesting…eh?

Hell, the average PERSON on the street (“street people”?) likely couldn’t tell ya where Brazil is. BUT, they might be able to tell ya who won ALL of the American Idol contests. Political acumen just isn’t the forte of a whoooole lot of ppl.

I think hate is a strong term, although I do mistrust government and people who wish to destroy our way of life.

Hmmmm….I would suppose calling Gays an abomination isn’t some kind of hate….eh? As far as ppl who are out to "destroy OUR (ya mean the RABID-RIGHT CONSERVATIVE?) country goes,,,,,, your “laundry list” of freedoms & rights that YOU oppose seems to me to be very much attacking the CONSTITUTIONAL SPIRIT of America.

It strikes me funny that you so hate so many Americans and consider them as ignorant because they don’t agree with your philosophies.

Then such “striking” is a blow for freedom & rights. I thought YOU considered “HATE” to be a strong description? More to the truth,,,I am deeply saddened by….well, see above.

Could it be that it is you and not them that is wrong?

Well, of course, it “could be”. By the same token, YOU could be wrong…VERY WRONG,,,,as many here have pointed out.

If you want to vote democrat, that is your choice,

I’ve explained this…TWO TIMES. Jake-0, this is what gives strong credence to the fact that it is YOU who does this “burying-of-head-to-any-real-facts” that ya speak of in the first sentence of this post.

but to malign all of the American people because they don’t follow along is just ludicrous.

ALL? I see ya’re still propping up YOUR weak positions w/ the hyperbole. AND, on this “malign” thing….it is YOUR who is calling us IMMORAL because we are supporters of Gay Rights & abortion rights.

Why do you continue to live in a country you hate so much when you can migrate to a country that is more attuned to your ideals?

Oh boy, the “tried-&-true” mantra of the idiot: Just because someone doesn’t agree w/ particular aspects of his nation…they should get the fuck out of it. Pathetic, Jake-o….just pathetic.

This way you won’t have to put up with those lousy ignorant Americans who hold you back.

Couldn’t, SHOULDN’T, the same be said about YOU? AND, I’m hugely baffled by what ya mean by “hold back”….where am I going?

Well, some of the things you have stated about your marriage have caused me a double-take.

Ya know, I’ve be quite concerned IF YA DIDN’T do one.

I consider my wife a human being with her own mind and not a slave to my demands. My wife loves me too, but I don’t control her. We are partners not master and slave.

Are YOU trying to convince ME or YOU? Ya forgot the “walk-beside-me-NOT-behind-me”. BUT,,,,I say AGAIN: I’m glad ya’re “on board” w/ at least women’s rights in the 21st century.

You have your marriage and I have mine…

NO SHIT, Sherlock. What a startling revelation. Did ya figure THAT ONE out all by yourself?

or do you think you should control that aspect of American life as well?

Nah, I’m pretty much (likely ?) just like YOU in that I have ONLY my pet projects…Gay Rights,,,Abortion Rights,,,educational rights,,,health care rights,,,individual freedom rights that I want to “control”. Shit, from all of that….someone might think I’m a RIGHT-winger…lol

BUT, YOUR “projects” are just the opposite….imagine THAT.

 
This post has been removed by an administrator or moderator
 
Flag Post
Originally posted by FlabbyWoofWoof:
Don’t base your opinion on what you read in the media as it is not a real representation of either candidate. There are so many slanders and insults that a true picture doesn’t arise. Top that with a liberal leaning media and it becomes a bit inaccurate.

I have heard it said that in America the ‘mainstream’ news agencies are left leaning…I think that there are, but I also think there are ‘mainstream’ right leaning news agencies.
I try to get my news from many sources…BBC, Al Jazeera, Haaretz, FOX, Slate, Hindustan Times, AFP, Reuters…I get my news only from news websites, I don’t like watching tv news – (CNN reporting usually makes my skin crawl).

I am left-leaning (I’m sure you worked that out yourself) but when I read a news article I want it to be honest and to give me only the facts… “editorials” and “comment” pieces of course are allowed to be as biased as they wish.

I can understand why you like Paul Ryan, but he’d be exactly the reason why I’d vote Obama.
I don’t know if it’s the same for you, but for me the biggest deciding factor in who to vote for first comes down to their social views. So being left-leaning I’d vote Obama…but if I was an American, such things as him wanting to have the indefinite detention powers of the NDAA, extending the Patriot Act and Obama invoking executive privilege over the ‘Fast and Furious’ documents would give me cause for concern.

I’m glad you are choosy on your news. In the old days newspapers and TV news would report a story from both sides and let the reader/watcher make their own minds up. Ratings and advertising become more important to them and they started going for ratings. Higher ratings, more advertisement.

I personally like Paul Ryan because I think he has the right idea of cutting the spending our government is doing. With so few people working and the tax revenue shrinking, we cannot continue to support all of these social programs we have going. I personally think the healthcare legislation is a back breaker for the country as we are talking trillions in new spending and the highest tax increase in American history.

Obama’s social views, from what I have seen, are pandering for votes. I really doubt any of what he has said in the last year are honest feelings, but only said to get as many votes as he can. Of course both sides do this, but it is telling when all of a sudden your views change when it is time for elections. For instance, Obama didn’t support gay marriage until he needed their votes.

Fast and Furious is going to be an interesting investigation because I think there was more than one reason for this excersize.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:
So I see the regulars on here, except for Omega, are all voting Liberal

i’d probably vote for the Greens or something. and since when is socalism incompatible with open-mindedness?

Neil thinks Obama is centrist, but is he really? What is a centrist?

Obama is certainly closer to Center in global frame of refence than anyone on the Republican party. in fact by Western standarts he’s a right wing conservative.

Your choice Bro. We are not voting on a global president, we are voting on our country’s president. In American politics Obama is left. He is trying to look centrist so he can get reelected. Running on a left ticket would be a loosing ticket right now.

 
Flag Post

They both are pretty liberal. Romney just hides behind a Republican mask; his voting record says different.

Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

third party.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by unleashthemind:

They both are pretty liberal. Romney just hides behind a Republican mask; his voting record says different.

Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

third party.

I would consider Romney a moderate, just right of center. Paul Ryan is conservative. I think Romneys choice of VP was to placate those who want strong conservatism. Third party is fine, but because 3rd parties are never elected it would be a wasted vote for the most part. There are a lot of good people in 3rd parties though.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:
I heard today that he just raided the Medicaid fund and is cutting that program back tremendously. This is a direct assault on the poor. He is planning to do away with Medicare and Medicaid in his next term. This will hurt both the elderly and the poor directly. Is this what we want?

Those two programs are important for the poor, but (no offense) what do you care? I thought you reviled Medicaid as another socialist program used by those who want to live on the government and not stand on their own two feet.

We are partners not master and slave.

How then, can the final decision go to the man? Unequal decision making power =/= partnership.


To the thread: I’m leaning towards Romney (because dammit, Ron Paul doesn’t have a chance). Don’t know how I feel about the Obamacare as I haven’t learned enough about it from unbiased sources, but the amnesty granted towards illegal immigrants swayed me that direction. I think that would put too great a stress on our resources at a time when we’re already very tight.

 
Flag Post

Amnesty to illegal immigrants means they can work legally, and pay taxes for that work, whereas they cannot work legally as it stands, and thus do not pay any taxes on those earnings. It’s making the best of a bad situation. They are swarming in anyway, and we cannot seem to stop them, so why not make them work for the country’s benefit?

It’ll greatly reduce the stress on our resources as a result.

It won’t encourage more in, because I suspect they’re already pouring in as fast as they feasibly can.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by vikaTae:

Amnesty to illegal immigrants means they can work legally, and pay taxes for that work, whereas they cannot work legally as it stands, and thus do not pay any taxes on those earnings. It’s making the best of a bad situation. They are swarming in anyway, and we cannot seem to stop them, so why not make them work for the country’s benefit?

It’ll greatly reduce the stress on our resources as a result.

It won’t encourage more in, because I suspect they’re already pouring in as fast as they feasibly can.

Amnesty means they will be granted an easy path to citizenship while still having the middle class tax payers support them through healthcare, welfare, and other entitlements. That is not fair to the legal immigrants who spent time and energy trying to do it the right way. You are awarding these people for breaking the law with greater incentives to come which is going to bankrupt the system more than it already. This is an obvious Obama ploy just to receive votes.

I will be voting for Romney. We should start voting out leaders if they fail to keep their promises. Obama is far worse than Bush now. $400 billion dollar stimulus program and we still have above 8% unemployment for 42 weeks in a row, and $5 trillion dollars in the national deficit in only 3 and a half years. Imagine if Obama gets a second term.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:
Originally posted by unleashthemind:

They both are pretty liberal. Romney just hides behind a Republican mask; his voting record says different.

Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

third party.


I would consider Romney a moderate, just right of center. Paul Ryan is conservative. I think Romneys choice of VP was to placate those who want strong conservatism. Third party is fine, but because 3rd parties are never elected it would be a wasted vote for the most part. There are a lot of good people in 3rd parties though.


I see what you’re saying about Romney, to be honest I have very high standards so I can be harsh. As for the wasted vote, I figure if everyone would vote for the better candidate instead of who is popular we would have a better system; this however is idealistic and would require people to actually do their own research on politics…
Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:
Originally posted by jhco50:
I heard today that he just raided the Medicaid fund and is cutting that program back tremendously. This is a direct assault on the poor. He is planning to do away with Medicare and Medicaid in his next term. This will hurt both the elderly and the poor directly. Is this what we want?

Those two programs are important for the poor, but (no offense) what do you care? I thought you reviled Medicaid as another socialist program used by those who want to live on the government and not stand on their own two feet.

We are partners not master and slave.

How then, can the final decision go to the man? Unequal decision making power =/= partnership.


To the thread: I’m leaning towards Romney (because dammit, Ron Paul doesn’t have a chance). Don’t know how I feel about the Obamacare as I haven’t learned enough about it from unbiased sources, but the amnesty granted towards illegal immigrants swayed me that direction. I think that would put too great a stress on our resources at a time when we’re already very tight.

“Ron Paul doesn’t have a chance” :(

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Sarerarere:

Amnesty means they will be granted an easy path to citizenship while still having the middle class tax payers support them through healthcare, welfare, and other entitlements. That is not fair to the legal immigrants who spent time and energy trying to do it the right way.

Its not an ideal solution, but then the immigration system is already broken six ways from Sunday. It is simply making the best deal that can currently be made, out of what is already an untenable situation. It also puts those who employ illegal immigrants in a bind, as their wages and working conditions are usually well below normal. It means these previously illegal workers can talk abnout who was employing them previously, and provide evidence to fine the bejesus out of these people for all the taxes they have skilled out on, along with umpteen health code violations and – oh yes, employing illegal workers.

If we can hit those people hard, we can actually start to stem the problem. Not to mention recoup lost earnings.

Besides, increasing the health of legal workers – of whatever kind – is only going to help the economy recover, as these people will be in a better condition to work full time. Increasing health care provision is always going to be a win-win situation.