U.S. Presidential Election page 2 (locked)

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Originally posted by Sarerarere:
Originally posted by vikaTae:

Amnesty to illegal immigrants means they can work legally, and pay taxes for that work, whereas they cannot work legally as it stands, and thus do not pay any taxes on those earnings. It’s making the best of a bad situation. They are swarming in anyway, and we cannot seem to stop them, so why not make them work for the country’s benefit?

It’ll greatly reduce the stress on our resources as a result.

It won’t encourage more in, because I suspect they’re already pouring in as fast as they feasibly can.

Amnesty means they will be granted an easy path to citizenship while still having the middle class tax payers support them through healthcare, welfare, and other entitlements.

Ah you have just earned the jhco of the day award, for sprouting ignorant political nonsense that is so stupid it hurts.

1. Obama´s measure does not provide an easy path to citizenship. It gives a 2 year break on deportation and possible working permits, for people who came into America under the age of 16 and lived in America for at least 5 years and who are in school or have an high school degree or were discharged honorably from the military. They also need a clean criminal record.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/15/us-usa-immigration-idUSBRE85E0VA20120615

2. Most entitlements are strictly for American citizens. The are only a few for non American but legal residents(which have to meet very restrictive conditions to be eligible) and a even rarer few available to illegals. And those for illegals are generally for children only.
http://www.wisegeek.com/who-is-eligible-for-welfare-in-the-united-states.htm

That is not fair to the legal immigrants who spent time and energy trying to do it the right way. You are awarding these people for breaking the law with greater incentives to come which is going to bankrupt the system more than it already. This is an obvious Obama ploy just to receive votes.

Bullshit as shown above. The measure might allow illegals immigrants who meet the conditions noted above(came to America under the age of 16 and etc.) to be able to apply for getting legal citizenship the “right way”, without needing to leave the America first(a risky choice at best). America the country where they have so far lived a significant part of their lives and are integrated into society.

 
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Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:
Originally posted by jhco50:
I heard today that he just raided the Medicaid fund and is cutting that program back tremendously. This is a direct assault on the poor. He is planning to do away with Medicare and Medicaid in his next term. This will hurt both the elderly and the poor directly. Is this what we want?

Those two programs are important for the poor, but (no offense) what do you care? I thought you reviled Medicaid as another socialist program used by those who want to live on the government and not stand on their own two feet.

We are partners not master and slave.

How then, can the final decision go to the man? Unequal decision making power =/= partnership.


To the thread: I’m leaning towards Romney (because dammit, Ron Paul doesn’t have a chance). Don’t know how I feel about the Obamacare as I haven’t learned enough about it from unbiased sources, but the amnesty granted towards illegal immigrants swayed me that direction. I think that would put too great a stress on our resources at a time when we’re already very tight.

Actually, I never said I reviled that program. Like any other program our government creates, it is abused and is bloated. Of course it is a socialist program, it takes from those who produce and gives to those who don’t, but a caveat, it has helped those who really need help. Still, I can accept it. If a person tries to take care of themselves I am more willing to help them, but when they only depend on everyone around them and don’t try, I am less willing to help.

Trying to be a bit tricky, are we?

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:

Amnesty to illegal immigrants means they can work legally, and pay taxes for that work, whereas they cannot work legally as it stands, and thus do not pay any taxes on those earnings. It’s making the best of a bad situation. They are swarming in anyway, and we cannot seem to stop them, so why not make them work for the country’s benefit?

It’ll greatly reduce the stress on our resources as a result.

It won’t encourage more in, because I suspect they’re already pouring in as fast as they feasibly can.

Well, welcome back Vika. I think Twilight is right on this one as there aren’t enough jobs to go around. Bringing in outside workers just makes the job situation worse for those who are citizens. I agree with you that they are pouring in and this compounds the problem. I feel it was a mistake to do what he has and it will backfire on him.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Sarerarere:
Originally posted by vikaTae:

Amnesty to illegal immigrants means they can work legally, and pay taxes for that work, whereas they cannot work legally as it stands, and thus do not pay any taxes on those earnings. It’s making the best of a bad situation. They are swarming in anyway, and we cannot seem to stop them, so why not make them work for the country’s benefit?

It’ll greatly reduce the stress on our resources as a result.

It won’t encourage more in, because I suspect they’re already pouring in as fast as they feasibly can.

Amnesty means they will be granted an easy path to citizenship while still having the middle class tax payers support them through healthcare, welfare, and other entitlements. That is not fair to the legal immigrants who spent time and energy trying to do it the right way. You are awarding these people for breaking the law with greater incentives to come which is going to bankrupt the system more than it already. This is an obvious Obama ploy just to receive votes.

I will be voting for Romney. We should start voting out leaders if they fail to keep their promises. Obama is far worse than Bush now. $400 billion dollar stimulus program and we still have above 8% unemployment for 42 weeks in a row, and $5 trillion dollars in the national deficit in only 3 and a half years. Imagine if Obama gets a second term.

I agree with you entirely. Your figures were off. The stimulus was over 700 billion (over a trillion if all of them are added in), Unemployment is 8.3 and we are over 15 trillion in debt now.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:

Trying to be a bit tricky, are we?

Not being tricky at all, just trying to get clarification. Where Medicaid was concerned, I was under the impression (I could be wrong) that you either wanted poor/indigents to find a way to pay for their own healthcare or apply for uncompensated care. Medicaid, of course, covers this poor group for what they are and their medical expenses almost in it’s entirety.

Also, you double posted the same one.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by karmakoolkid:

Well, since I’m very much in the 99% ‘zone’…
I’d have to say I’m gonna go w/ Obama.
AND, likely a straight Demo. ticket for Congress,,,,
even though I might think a Repub. would be the better representative,,,
we need the House AND the Senate to help bring about SOCIALISTIC measures for America.

Hive mind at its finest I suppose. And socialism? Really? When people say shit like this it reminds me of a five year old with a severe deficiency in mental capabilities.
Touches stove
“OW! The stove was really hot when I touched it. Maybe this time it will be different.”
Touches stove again
“OW! That was also really hot! Let me try this again…you know…just to make sure…”
Touches stove a third time
“AH! It’s still hot! Well it can’t possibly still be hot…”
Touches stove a fourth time

Repeat indefinitely

 
This post has been removed by an administrator or moderator
 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:
Originally posted by jhco50:

Trying to be a bit tricky, are we?

Not being tricky at all, just trying to get clarification. Where Medicaid was concerned, I was under the impression (I could be wrong) that you either wanted poor/indigents to find a way to pay for their own healthcare or apply for uncompensated care. Medicaid, of course, covers this poor group for what they are and their medical expenses almost in it’s entirety.

Also, you double posted the same one.

You misunderstood me. I don’t have a problem helping those who truly want a hand up. It is the people who don’t want a real hand up and exist solely to have others support them. The poor, if they are trying to move ahead and join the working class may need a hand getting there and that is acceptable, but those who sit at home watching TV and pushing out kids to get more welfare shouldn’t get any.

Obama just raided the funding for Medicaid a couple of days ago. He had already raided Medicare for 500 billion about a year ago.

Sorry for the double post, which one was it?

 
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Originally posted by Saraereara:

No one intelligent takes karmakoolkid seriously LMAO!

Completely ignoring the counter-point and insulting Karma, you really do deserve the jhco of the day award.

 
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Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:

Bullshit as shown above. The measure might allow illegals immigrants who meet the conditions noted above(came to America under the age of 16 and etc.) to be able to apply for getting legal citizenship the “right way”, without needing to leave the America first(a risky choice at best). America the country where they have so far lived a significant part of their lives and are integrated into society.

Actually John, it is the legal immigrants that are most against amnesty. This is just another move on Obama’s part to get more votes, only I don’t think this one will produce many.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by Saraereara:

No one intelligent takes karmakoolkid seriously LMAO!

Completely ignoring the counter-point and insulting Karma, you really do deserve the jhco of the day award.

Are you guys telling me I have my own award? Thanks guys, I never had one before.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Saraereara:
Originally posted by karmakoolkid:

Well, since I’m very much in the 99% ‘zone’…
I’d have to say I’m gonna go w/ Obama.
AND, likely a straight Demo. ticket for Congress,,,,
even though I might think a Repub. would be the better representative,,,
we need the House AND the Senate to help bring about SOCIALISTIC measures for America.

No one intelligent takes karmakoolkid seriously LMAO!

Well, either YOUR opinion is based upon extreeeeemly little knowledge (this one being the first)….

OR, YOU are just an alt…someone that hasn’t the capacity to be them self.

Either way, just who should take a person like THAT seriously?

AND, no…“the jake-0-of-the-day” award isn’t something to be proud of.
It’s something like: “Blackwell’s Worst Dressed List”…or, “The Rotten Tomato Award”.
OR, being compared to jake-o IS NOT A COMPLIMENT. lol

Originally posted by jhco50:
Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:

Bullshit as shown above. The measure might allow illegals immigrants who meet the conditions noted above(came to America under the age of 16 and etc.) to be able to apply for getting legal citizenship the “right way”, without needing to leave the America first(a risky choice at best). America the country where they have so far lived a significant part of their lives and are integrated into society.

Actually John, it is the legal immigrants that are most against amnesty. This is just another move on Obama’s part to get more votes, only I don’t think this one will produce many.

NO, that is just another one of the ridiculous LIES being told to YOU by bullshit artists (cough-fox news-cough) and YOU luv to repeat because YOU are a homophobic bigot who hates Latinos, too…..AND, all of us IMMORAL HEATHENS who support abortion RIGHTS.

Why the hell would someone NOT WANT their family members,,as well as those who they have much more in common w/,,,to come “live w/ them”? Dood, ya really ought to THINK about some of this shit YOU try to pass off here as being some kind of “truth”.

 
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I’m going to vote for Romney. I don’t agree with much of Obama’s policies or positions. The part I disagree with the most is the amount of money he spent. I’ve never understood the desire to spend one’s way out of debt, nor the idea that government is a nanny.

 
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Karma, I flagged your post. You are going to have to stop harassing new users and stop your rants at me. You are acting like a spoiled child and you are supposed to be a mature individual.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Karma, I flagged your post.

Well, good for YOU.
AND, good luck w/ that.
Just because YOU are flagged alot doesn’t automatically make YOU an expert on what merits flagging.

You are going to have to stop harassing new users…

What part of an OBVIOUS “alt” do YOU not understand?

and stop your rants at me.

Seriously, do YOU not see that you are committing censorship here? Regardless of how ya see my posts (rants…lol), calling them & me idiotic names is about all YOU do in reaction to them.

You are acting like a spoiled child and you are supposed to be a mature individual.

Sure. lol

I suspect ya’re looking into a mirror at the moment….eh?

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by karmakoolkid:
Originally posted by jhco50:

Karma, I flagged your post.

Well, good for YOU.
AND, good luck w/ that.
Just because YOU are flagged alot doesn’t automatically make YOU an expert on what merits flagging.


You are going to have to stop harassing new users…

What part of an OBVIOUS “alt” do YOU not understand?


and stop your rants at me.

Seriously, do YOU not see that you are committing censorship here? Regardless of how ya see my posts (rants…lol), calling them & me idiotic names is about all YOU do in reaction to them.


You are acting like a spoiled child and you are supposed to be a mature individual.

Sure. lol

I suspect ya’re looking into a mirror at the moment….eh?

Karma, I disagree with almost anything that Jhco thinks and yet I still agree that you shouldn’t harass people. Even if they aren’t actual new users, you’re supposed to avoid harassing people, whether or not they harass you first. (Also, no offence, but your posts are very difficult to read. I understand what they mean by you’re the third type of person in SD, back in the Forum Games.)

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Neil thinks Obama is centrist, but is he really? What is a centrist? They are a middle of the road politician who doesn’t really fit either party. He is a person who has both democratic and republican leanings…Kind of neutral in the political arena. A one size fits all type of person. Now honestly, does Obama fit this definition?

Of course he doesn’t, but that isn’t what a centrist is.

Omega summed up what I was actually saying – that on a full political spectrum (which is what I think in), both are right but Obama is closer to being in the middle than Romney.

Where they lie in a graph of the ‘mainstream American spectrum’ is irrelevant to my post.

 
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Originally posted by NeilSenna:

Omega summed up what I was actually saying – that on a full political spectrum (which is what I think in), both are right but Obama is closer to being in the middle than Romney.

That’s a very good point…to most Americans Obama is ‘left wing’…but I’d say he’s actually more ‘right wing’ if you looked at his policies more objectively.

 
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Neil/Flabby. I can see how the particulars of our party stances can look different from country to country and find it interesting. I look at the UK and the parties there and it can become really confusing at times. I wonder if we look at liberalism and conservatism through different eyes. I don’t study the political workings of other countries and my knowledge of them would be cursory.

Although people think America only has two parties, we actually have many. We have a communist, socialist, green, and several others outside the major parties. We tend to stay with the major parties as that is where most people lay in their political views. We simplify the party stances as left and right and the politicians vary in their stances between those two party definitions. People tend to simplify politics. This is how I came up with Obamas and Romneys stances.

I suppose if I was involved in the UK’s politics it would be easier to understand the varied parties there, but as it is I find them complicated. For curiosities sake, how many parties do you have and what are their stances?

 
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Our two party system is simply the exact same party with the unfortunate requirement that they simply disagree with the other “party” to maintain a mutually assured system of power and control. They’re all spineless, lying, neoconservative liberals who are almost all so far removed from our society, due to either being born into privilege or selling their souls for campaign funds. I’m using rather rhetorical language, simply because I’m done arguing American “politics” without actually addressing policy.

Let’s just say that I am voting for Obama, not because I like him anymore in the least, but because I believe he’s the least effective candidate with the least offensive policies. If I voted for Paul Ryan, I’d literally be fucking killing my own self considering I’m on medicare and could literally not survive, live, exist, or even have a political opinion if I wasn’t. Considering social programs that enable individuals to be taxpayers are less expensive than paying for the fallout of a sick and disabled country, I don’t consider this to be a “fluff” socialist control mechanism as much as a practical, fiscally responsible means of lowering the costs of less than efficient workers, or the short term loss of temporarily disabled workers that would become permanently disabled without those supports.

Case-in-point, I would be all for a true, non-randian libertarian policies that eliminated medicare, but not the “cut everything but the FEDs and Military spending” idiocy of Big Government Conservatives, which is supposed to be a goddamned oxymoron. If corporations actually had to retain employees as an investment in their company instead of squeeze as much out of them before throwing them away, we wouldn’t need social services that secure our workforce and taxpayers.

God I hate what America has become, and not because “dat ayrab in office took mah country away!” but because we the people are not the government anymore at all even a little bit.

 
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I can’t really disagree with most of that BSG. It is pretty much as you say, except the part about conservatives taking your medicare away. Ryan and Romney actually want to strengthen it whereas Obama plans to eventually eliminate most of it, and medicaid, and meld it into the universal healthcare. I was watching the news this morning and Obama has taken more from Medicare funds, a total of about 715 billion now. In a case such as yours, I would be very upset if you were thrown to the dogs.

 
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No, voucher systems are inherently more expensive and favor people with high incomes. This isn’t even the slightest bit of an opinion, it’s just basic math. Ryan wants to enact a system that would only work if absolutely every single other thing about our government was run differently.

 
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Originally posted by TheBSG:If I voted for Paul Ryan, I’d literally be fucking killing my own self considering I’m on medicare and could literally not survive, live, exist, or even have a political opinion if I wasn’t.

Ryan did propose cuts to medicare, and that is the focus of the Obama campaign, but the fact is that Obama literally gutted medicare. He cut $716 Billion from medicare1. While Ryan did propose a reform of Medicare, he didn’t propose cuts to that depth, but changed the way government funds things. I know that Obama accuses Ryan of wanting to gut medicare, but that’s dishonest, not only in that Ryan’s plan didn’t do that, but that Obama actually did. If medicare is what is really important to you, then vote Romney/Ryan.

http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/medicare-368797-obama-cuts.html

 
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Point taken. As you say, though, both parties are pretty close anymore.

I also agree that America is not the country I grew up in. We as parents always want better for our children and I fear we have failed in our generation. I am fairly disgusted with what we are becoming.

BTW, How have you been?

 
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I am aware of Obama’s transfer of Medicare to public healthcare, and unless you can provide some insight that I don’t have (it’s a thing I was more informed about last year when it happened), it seems to me that the healthcare bill itself includes the same services as medicare did formerly, it’s just a compilation of those programs.

You’re still not addressing that it would cost me anywhere from 5 to 6 thousand more dollars in copays using a counter intuitive attempt at encouraging competition of putting individuals and our tax payer dollars up for the lowest common denominator using “incentive vouchers,” just as it doesn’t work in private/charter schools that want to teach not-science and still get government funding because of vouchers, drastically lowering the quality of education in poor rural southern states where people would have been religious regardless of their understanding of the world anyway. Richer (still mostly religious and conservative) communities have no problems with voucher systems so they keep thinking they work, and they simply don’t for everyone.

I’m not interested in political ideals here, so if you have real policy analysis on this topic I’m not at all going to deny its legitimacy. I don’t even get why politics gets so emotional, the things people claim should be relatively easy to determine. The goals the different parties are supposed to have don’t mean that we cannot satisfy them both, and in fact our ability to do so ensures an equilibrium of freedom. If we agreed on different goals and then worked towards satisfying them without compromising the goals of the other, we’re going to build a far superior society that is self aware and self controlled. If you’ve got facts that support a particular claim, I’m absolutely open to them and am not interested in opinions here in the least. I’m practical when it comes to government, not political.

Edit: Not too well actually, message me if you want to be my therapist. ;) Thanks for asking though, and yourself?