What should NATO's standard-issue pistol cartridge really be? page 3

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Originally posted by rwbstripes:

My favorite thing that I picked up unofficially was this

If you’re treating American: No gloves

If you’re treating foreign: Gloves

I’d love to read your essay anyway, though I’ve received years of education and experienced on all of which that essay is based upon, I would read it.

I gave you an abbreviated essay. :) Why the gloves on the foreigner and not the American? That is interesting. It is good to talk to someone with an extensive knowledge of my favorite subject.

 
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Originally posted by rwbstripes:

.50BMG Will easily perforate an eardrum. Most ranges don’t even allow them to be used, so I’m pretty surprised that he was even freely using it. As for the concussion – I feel that strongly with even 30-06.

I hunt with ballistic tip, and carry ball ammunition for when I’m in the woods because of the bear territory here. I’ve always considered this ammunition to be superior to something like HP (JHP might suffice, but there’s still a chance of failure) because of the thick mane, the HP would probably just mushroom on the outside of mane.

Though this thread is specifically on pistol cartridges and which one should be implemented in the military, I really don’t care anymore and am much more intrigued with the current topic.

As for home defense – I would just use 9mm with subsonic load. My current plan for home defense happens to be: Grab 590 loaded with 1oz slug by bed, aim at door, shoot something that walks in. This both reduces danger to those around me as well as to myself.

I agree on you bullet choices. I would probably feel pretty secure with soft points, but hollow points would bee a no-no for bear. I read an article one time of a guy describing a predator hunt. It was nighttime and he was calling for Coyote. About a half hour into his calling he felt warm air on the back of his neck. He slowly turned his head and looked into the eyes of a Cougar. I believe I would have soiled my undies. LOL!

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:
Originally posted by rwbstripes:

.50BMG Will easily perforate an eardrum. Most ranges don’t even allow them to be used, so I’m pretty surprised that he was even freely using it. As for the concussion – I feel that strongly with even 30-06.

I hunt with ballistic tip, and carry ball ammunition for when I’m in the woods because of the bear territory here. I’ve always considered this ammunition to be superior to something like HP (JHP might suffice, but there’s still a chance of failure) because of the thick mane, the HP would probably just mushroom on the outside of mane.

Though this thread is specifically on pistol cartridges and which one should be implemented in the military, I really don’t care anymore and am much more intrigued with the current topic.

As for home defense – I would just use 9mm with subsonic load. My current plan for home defense happens to be: Grab 590 loaded with 1oz slug by bed, aim at door, shoot something that walks in. This both reduces danger to those around me as well as to myself.

I agree on you bullet choices. I would probably feel pretty secure with soft points, but hollow points would bee a no-no for bear. I read an article one time of the guy describing a predator hunt. It was nighttime and he was calling for Coyote. About a half hour into his calling he felt warm air on the back of his neck. He slowly turned his head and looked into the eyes of a Cougar. I believe I would have soiled my undies. LOL!

Cougars are bitches with movement-based vision, the DEC imported a bunch 20-25 years ago here in upstate NY to kill deer when people stopped hunting so much.

And I didn’t wear gloves on Americans because I usually only packed two pairs in my bags, as well as I knew very well that they don’t have AIDS or some shit on deployment. With Afghani people, you can always run across some disgusting disease or something that can easily be picked up. I never contracted anything or got sick, but there’s been enough times were I was using gauze to Z pack wounds of both Americans as well as Afghani civillians and I thought, what if this guy does have in him shit? Though, no worries from here though, I kept myself at a low exposure to anything like that, the only time I was close and dealing with Afghani people were when they were the ANA attached to us and when some guy had a sebaceous cyst he needed removed.

 
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Ah, interesting and totally understandable about the gloves. How many deployments did you end up with? Too many I’m sure.

They have been trying to reestablish the Wolves in my area and the ranchers are raising hell. People like to say they only hunt the weak and old but that is so much hogwash. They go after calves and ponies. The ranchers hate them and the nuts that are bringing them in.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Ah, interesting and totally understandable about the gloves. How many deployments did you end up with? Too many I’m sure.

They have been trying to reestablish the Wolves in my area and the ranchers are raising hell. People like to say they only hunt the weak and old but that is so much hogwash. They go after calves and ponies. The ranchers hate them and the nuts that are bringing them in.

Deployed to FOB Wilson once in 2009 on an 8 month tour. I was attached to a medical company back at Ft Carson and this company that deployed was basically just “borrowing” me for a deployment. I was happy to be back to my girl and to my home. When I went we still were wearing ACUPAT but right now they changed it up to Multicam for most guys. My main job was just working in a little clinic / combat hospital / whatever the hell anyone wants to call it which was basically just two trailers connected. I worked clinics a lot and rotated with a group of other medics so we could have equality. I spent a lot of time outside of the wire when I wasn’t busy in a clinic. In Fort Carson, I worked at a hospital (Everyone works their MOS) on weekdays and got a job at a range on the weekend. I had a lot of fond memories in the military and none of them are unsatisfying, save for those few messy ones.

I haven’t seen the mountain lion myself, but my grandfather has both a paw print, audio and video recording of the animals. He even confronted the DEC office down in Albany, but they just denied it. My mother saw a timber wolf on her way to work one time in 1996, that was the only we had seen of them. I figure they brought in lions to kill deer, and wolves to kill lions.

 
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Sounds like them. the brought in Nutrea Rats in Texas to combat a weed in the reservoirs and now they are really taking over down there. they have been trying to get people to eat them as a delicacy. Well, bed time for this old guy. Maybe tomorrow we can discuss reloading and obscure cartridges? :)

 
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Sure. I’m going to go on a run in a few minutes anyway, then I’ll hop in bed and wake up some time in the day.

 
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Sorry to do this again, but someone (stripes I think?) mentioned that rifles chambered for 5.56×45 won’t/can’t fire .223

…wrong.

The main difference is pressure, and/or throat length as it applies to creation of pressure in the chamber.

Long and short; 5.56 ammo runs at a higher pressure, and due to different specs for throat length, can create dangerously high pressure in a rifle chambered strictly for .223

The opposite is safe, however; a rifle chambered for 5.56 can safely operate with .223 ammo, as .223 is well within the operable pressure range for a 5.56 chamber.

SOURCE

 
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I also fixed myself as well as Jhco brought up an article that supported both sides.

Using 5.56 in a .223 rifle is stupid, using .223 in a 5.56 can cause slam fires. I’m pretty sure that article also talked about headspace issues.

 
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I aint no expert but I heard that
7.62×25mm tokarev is more powerful than 9mm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9725mm_Tokarev
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9×19mm_Parabellum
It has more energy because of higher velocity.

 
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Originally posted by thepunisher52:

I aint no expert but I heard that
7.62×25mm tokarev is more powerful than 9mm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9725mm_Tokarev
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9×19mm_Parabellum
It has more energy because of higher velocity.

Don’t expect the United States to adopt a Russian cartridge any time soon, buddy.

 
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Originally posted by rwbstripes:
Originally posted by thepunisher52:

I aint no expert but I heard that
7.62×25mm tokarev is more powerful than 9mm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9725mm_Tokarev
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9×19mm_Parabellum
It has more energy because of higher velocity.

Don’t expect the United States to adopt a Russian cartridge any time soon, buddy.

its the most used hangun round in pakistan
because tt 33 is very cheap here only 12 to 20000 rs
1 $ = 100 rs or more.

 
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The fact that it is Russian is what prevents the US using it, punisher. There’s too much baggage with the Soviets being the old communist enemy. Using Russian-made weaponry would go far too deeply against the grain.

Plus of course, there is the ‘minor’ issue that it is never sane to rely on weapons made by a foreign country. If you should find yourself at war with them, you have severed your own supply lines.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:

The fact that it is Russian is what prevents the US using it, punisher. There’s too much baggage with the Soviets being the old communist enemy. Using Russian-made weaponry would go far too deeply against the grain.

Exactly this.

We might not be head-to-head in a nuclear arms race, but we still have that idea of ’Merica strong.

As for supply lines, Vika, the US would probably start production of the cartridges themselves. They don’t buy ammunition anymore, they make their own these days.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:

The fact that it is Russian is what prevents the US using it, punisher. There’s too much baggage with the Soviets being the old communist enemy. Using Russian-made weaponry would go far too deeply against the grain.

Plus of course, there is the ‘minor’ issue that it is never sane to rely on weapons made by a foreign country. If you should find yourself at war with them, you have severed your own supply lines.

but can they make some thing similar?
add a .01 mm or subtract it?

 
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Guys, it’s different now because we decided to add .01mm of length to it!

 
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Originally posted by rwbstripes:

Guys, it’s different now because we decided to add .01mm of length to it!

I mean won’t that circumvent the patent or something?

 
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God, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

 
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Originally posted by rwbstripes:

God, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Okay, this brings us to my original point, give them flint locks.

 
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Originally posted by thepunisher52:
Originally posted by rwbstripes:

God, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Okay, this brings us to my original point, give them flint locks.

The powder wouldn’t even be effective enough at damaging a vehicle, muss less killing soldiers from any distance.

 
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Originally posted by rwbstripes:
Originally posted by thepunisher52:
Originally posted by rwbstripes:

God, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Okay, this brings us to my original point, give them flint locks.

The powder wouldn’t even be effective enough at damaging a vehicle, muss less killing soldiers from any distance.

Back in my day, an experienced shooter could acheive a head shot from 800 yards.
With a musket.

 
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The Tokarev is a dirty little round if bought in bulk or found, though. The Soviets tended to mass-produce and do little quality checking, so Pakistani soldiers using the rounds might not be exactly happy with utilizing it, due to the commonality of misfires. It does have some nice kick, however, and many German soliders during World War II complained about Soviets hitting them harder in close-range engagements.

 
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Originally posted by 12_Hundred:

The Tokarev is a dirty little round if bought in bulk or found, though. The Soviets tended to mass-produce and do little quality checking, so Pakistani soldiers using the rounds might not be exactly happy with utilizing it, due to the commonality of misfires. It does have some nice kick, however, and many German soliders during World War II complained about Soviets hitting them harder in close-range engagements.

its not in our army’s use, its in wide spread civilian use.
The reason it is in widespread civilan use is because TT – 33 and other communist weapons are very cheap compared to non communist weapons.
Even our police carries M9 or Glock
Right now, it is the only gun in my price range.
Most street common hanguns are :-
TT-33, Mauser and Makarov.
Guys in darra adamkhel make copy of every gun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darra_Adam_Khel

 
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Originally posted by thepunisher52:
Originally posted by rwbstripes:
Originally posted by thepunisher52:
Originally posted by rwbstripes:

God, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Okay, this brings us to my original point, give them flint locks.

The powder wouldn’t even be effective enough at damaging a vehicle, muss less killing soldiers from any distance.

Back in my day, an experienced shooter could acheive a head shot from 800 yards.
With a musket.

Considering the innacuracy of a musket, it’s ammunition, as well as its sights, I doubt that was possible. You probably can’t even seen a human head at 800 yards / meters and the military doesn’t even train infantry to shoot beyond 300m though most engagements lie between 100-200.

 
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God, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

…says the guy that thinks a rifle chambered for 5.56 can’t fire .223

Dude.