Palestine being recognized as a separate state page 3

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The US doesn’t have that much pull with the UN. It only gets one vote.

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:
Originally posted by FlabbyWoofWoof:

There are somethings that just are right, equality for homosexuals and statehood for Palestinians…these things are examples where the people who are against it are backward, hostile, self centred individuals. There is no reason to deny Palestinians what is theirs. History will not absolve Israel, but condemn it as a genocidal regime.

i agree. but there’s a very important question to be answered: why did every single first world nation with the only exception of Iceland vote against it?

are we all really this corrupted?

Actually the only ones who voted no seemed to have been countries with strong ties to the US or Israel: Marshall Isles, the Czechs, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau, Panama…and Canada. We voted No because we have a cabinet full of rabid Zionists like Irwin Cotler and Jason Kenney. What is true is that most of europe and a big chunk of industrialized SE Asia abstained, which I guess could be complicity, but was probably just keeping their options open.

@dd790
I wouldn’t agree that later generations would call israel genocidal. They’ve never been genocidal. They have, and still do, promote ethnic cleansing, but it’s more based on social segregation – ie reinforcing ‘the Jewish Character of the State’ than actually deliberately killing people, and even on the social end, there’s plenty of exceptions, which rules out Apartheid comparisons.

 
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again, not the voting for Palestine’s observer status. i mean the voting for Palestine’s recognition as a state, which was done a few years ago. i remember how the Netherlands voted against, because i remember the outrage i felt.

 
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Israel’s retaliation to statehood bid

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

again, not the voting for Palestine’s observer status. i mean the voting for Palestine’s recognition as a state, which was done a few years ago. i remember how the Netherlands voted against, because i remember the outrage i felt.

Why?

 
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why i felt outrage? because. there was no observer status back then, and no talk of it. giving Palestine statehood would be fair, and a step towards peaceful solutions. and any reason to not give it statehood are complete bogus, so yeah.

and it was basically giving Israel green light to continue to commit atrocities on people that are either not citizens of anywhere so basically vogelvrij (outside legal protection), or illegal citizens of Israel.

 
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So I’m still curious what the take on Israel’s reaction to Palestinian recognition was (ie, withholding revenue and expanding settlements) from those that feel Israel deserves basically unquestioned support.

Like, are these actions OK?
To be expected?
Justified?

 
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I don’t believe Israel deserves unquestioned support. I don’t believe Palestine should be a state without first agreeing to peace.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

I don’t believe Israel deserves unquestioned support. I don’t believe Palestine should be a state without first agreeing to peace.

And I believe I can fly.
What? I thought we were telling the biggest lies we could think of.

 
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If it was found out I was lying in every of my arguments and opinions here, how would that affect my arguments?

 
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Originally posted by thepunisher52:
Originally posted by MyTie:

I don’t believe Israel deserves unquestioned support. I don’t believe Palestine should be a state without first agreeing to peace.

And I believe I can fly.
What? I thought we were telling the biggest lies we could think of.

So, instead of explaining why the belief is incorrect, just call the person a liar? How would you know if I were lying or not? I think you think I’m lying because you don’t think other people, who don’t support Palestine, could possibly do so without unquestioningly supporting Israel. I think you’ve got this “for me or against me” mentality. I’m not for either. Israel and Palestine both deserve to exist, but Palestine hasn’t demonstrated that it deserves statehood, and Israel isn’t working hard enough for peace. They are both acting like children. Until you are able to recognize that both sides have an issue, then you’ll be woefully ignorant of the situation.

 
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But does anyone have a good point why it would be bad if Palestine has access to the international courts? I mean if they want they could sue Israel and we could get some legal light on just who is committing what crimes. They don’t have any voting power so why would it be bad?

 
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Originally posted by thijser:

But does anyone have a good point why it would be bad if Palestine has access to the international courts? I mean if they want they could sue Israel and we could get some legal light on just who is committing what crimes. They don’t have any voting power so why would it be bad?

Because blockading a nation is an act of war. Because the Israeli blockade would become an act of war, upon Palestinian statehood. The Palestinian/Israeli conflict would become the Palestinian/Israeli war, likely with allies of each joining in. Do I need to explain the implications of this?

 
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That seems like a really odd point. “We shouldn’t let them become a nation because then the bad things that are being done to them would then be bad and also an act of war.”

 
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I don’t think the blockade is a bad thing. I think it is a good thing. I think it is a necessary thing to keep things somewhat stable. Even with the massive blockades they still get how many missles in? Imagine what it would be like if they had open borders with Syria. I shudder.

No, Israel has made many mistakes, and should be held accountable, but the blockade itself is necessary. Which, brings us to my point about Palestine: If they are so violent, and irresponsible of a people to need a complete border blockade and isolation to prevent all out violent meltdown, then they don’t DESERVE to have the rights to control their border conferred upon them. They don’t deserve a state. That is why Israel, the US, Canada, and other countries, and yes, myself, all say that Palestine needs to agree to peace BEFORE they get the privileges and responsibilities of being their own independent nation, capable of waging international war with the aid of allies and a conglomerate of enemies.

I know it sounds ideal to say that Palestine deserves their land, and their own governance, and they were there first, and Israel is just hostile invaders, and they are fighting for themselves, etc etc etc. I get it. But, the reality is that if they are given the ideal, then it is highly likely that millions and millions of people will die in war. All this, because why? We want to give Palestine the symbolic group hug to show them they are right and we love them? This is not boy scouts. We aren’t sitting around a fire sharing stories and hot coco. This is reality. Give those people what they want, and then they will go the rest of the way and murder as many of those invading civilians as they can.

No. No statehood for Palestine until they start acting like a neighbor.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by thepunisher52:
Originally posted by MyTie:

I don’t believe Israel deserves unquestioned support. I don’t believe Palestine should be a state without first agreeing to peace.

And I believe I can fly.
What? I thought we were telling the biggest lies we could think of.

So, instead of explaining why the belief is incorrect, just call the person a liar? How would you know if I were lying or not? I think you think I’m lying because you don’t think other people, who don’t support Palestine, could possibly do so without unquestioningly supporting Israel. I think you’ve got this “for me or against me” mentality. I’m not for either. Israel and Palestine both deserve to exist, but Palestine hasn’t demonstrated that it deserves statehood, and Israel isn’t working hard enough for peace. They are both acting like children. Until you are able to recognize that both sides have an issue, then you’ll be woefully ignorant of the situation.

Mytie, Unless other person brings up some israeli atrocity, you go onesided against palestine.
So, when you make statements like

I don’t believe Israel deserves unquestioned support. I don’t believe Palestine should be a state without first agreeing to peace.

they strike me as hollow because you are the same person who claims palestinians want to kill your 4 year old child.
When you beleive in a thing like above, you don’t get in rights and wrongs, you do what you believe is right for your family.
So, yes I thuink you are a liar, well I call you a liar when you make such statements.

Originally posted by MyTie:

I don’t think the blockade is a bad thing. I think it is a good thing. I think it is a necessary thing to keep things somewhat stable. Even with the massive blockades they still get how many missles in? Imagine what it would be like if they had open borders with Syria. I shudder.

No, Israel has made many mistakes, and should be held accountable, but the blockade itself is necessary. Which, brings us to my point about Palestine: If they are so violent, and irresponsible of a people to need a complete border blockade and isolation to prevent all out violent meltdown, then they don’t DESERVE to have the rights to control their border conferred upon them. They don’t deserve a state. That is why Israel, the US, Canada, and other countries, and yes, myself, all say that Palestine needs to agree to peace BEFORE they get the privileges and responsibilities of being their own independent nation, capable of waging international war with the aid of allies and a conglomerate of enemies.

I know it sounds ideal to say that Palestine deserves their land, and their own governance, and they were there first, and Israel is just hostile invaders, and they are fighting for themselves, etc etc etc. I get it. But, the reality is that if they are given the ideal, then it is highly likely that millions and millions of people will die in war. All this, because why? We want to give Palestine the symbolic group hug to show them they are right and we love them? This is not boy scouts. We aren’t sitting around a fire sharing stories and hot coco. This is reality. Give those people what they want, and then they will go the rest of the way and murder as many of those invading civilians as they can.

No. No statehood for Palestine until they start acting like a neighbor.

I am sorry Mytie but we muslims are more of followers of of Quran 8:60
than Luke 6:29
Also what you fail to understand is that thge blockade itself is one of the reasons why the turn to violence.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

I don’t think the blockade is a bad thing. I think it is a good thing. I think it is a necessary thing to keep things somewhat stable. Even with the massive blockades they still get how many missles in? Imagine what it would be like if they had open borders with Syria. I shudder.

No, Israel has made many mistakes, and should be held accountable, but the blockade itself is necessary. Which, brings us to my point about Palestine: If they are so violent, and irresponsible of a people to need a complete border blockade and isolation to prevent all out violent meltdown, then they don’t DESERVE to have the rights to control their border conferred upon them. They don’t deserve a state. That is why Israel, the US, Canada, and other countries, and yes, myself, all say that Palestine needs to agree to peace BEFORE they get the privileges and responsibilities of being their own independent nation, capable of waging international war with the aid of allies and a conglomerate of enemies.

I know it sounds ideal to say that Palestine deserves their land, and their own governance, and they were there first, and Israel is just hostile invaders, and they are fighting for themselves, etc etc etc. I get it. But, the reality is that if they are given the ideal, then it is highly likely that millions and millions of people will die in war. All this, because why? We want to give Palestine the symbolic group hug to show them they are right and we love them? This is not boy scouts. We aren’t sitting around a fire sharing stories and hot coco. This is reality. Give those people what they want, and then they will go the rest of the way and murder as many of those invading civilians as they can.

No. No statehood for Palestine until they start acting like a neighbor.

To get the Palestinians to declare a unilateral permanent peace just isn’t going to happen. Ever. They are powerless, and picking up a gun is the only way they have of getting the world to notice their plight. And you are talking about them as if they are one united group, which they aren’t. Now, let’s suppose that Hamas agreed to a temporary ceasefire (which would inevitably be broken from time to time by various splinter groups) in order to come to the negotiating table again. They would obviously expect a matching concession from Israel. If lifting the blockade is out of the question for you, what would you suggest that Israel gives them by way of a quid pro quo? And bear in mind that agreeing to a ceasefire takes away Hamas’s only real leverage, so they would expect something big in return.

 
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I think they should blow each other up and end this ridiculous religious/ land squabble.

 
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I am sorry Mytie but we muslims are more of followers of of Quran 8:60 than Luke 6:29

Have to agree with Punisher, in his roundabout way. The religious glorification of violence as sacred struggle is something of a tumbling block. That entire chapter extols nothing but the continuation of desperate war unyielding.

Not to say the OT and associated text is innocent of anything. But considering how deeply grounded both parties are in religious ideologies, both highly tailored to the situation they are in, I am not sure a political rational solution is even an option.

 
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All I see here is that I shouldn’t expect Palestine to stop fighting, nor want peace, but that we should give them national power anyways. Have you all been drinking the kool aide?

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

All I see here is that I shouldn’t expect Palestine to stop fighting, nor want peace, but that we should give them national power anyways. Have you all been drinking the kool aide?

Strange the Hamas and PLO have repeatedly made peace(cease fires) with Israel. Individuals and Organizations on both sides have repeatedly broken such agreements. Israel for example being the one to break the last major cease-fire by murdering a Hamas member and those around him at the time. Israel refuses to acknowledge the Palestinian Right to statehood(the PLO at least has accepted the right of Israel to exist). Israel murders civilians as does the Hamas.
With your argumentation one should take away Israels “national powers” or start drinking cool aide.

Fact is one can expect the greater majority of Palestinians to stop Fighting when their lives become less hope less. Currently freedom Fighter is one of the better paying jobs in a Palestine with little jobs otherwise. And that the economy is bad is a direct result of Israels strategy regarding the occupation of the Palestinian territories. So steps that reduce the ability of Israel to keep their strategy going, are indeed a plus.

 
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I agree with everything, except the assertion of Palestinian’s right to statehood. I don’t understand why that is their right. What gives them that right?

Also, Israel offered Palestine mutual statehood 3 times, and Palestine refused them all because they would have to recognize Israel.

Further, I’m interested in your conclusion that stopping Israel’s “strategy” would improve the economic opportunities of Palestine. Are you suggesting that jobs would increase there if the blockade would drop, and people would stop fighting Israel? What makes you think that they wouldn’t ship rockets into Palestine and make an effective fight at destroying Israel? The burden lay with you, on this one. It has to. You can’t just assert that if Israel would drop the blockade Palestine would be peaceful. That isn’t a good argument. Explain to me why Israel dropping the blockade WOULDN’T be suicide. Do that, and I’ll support the dropping of the blockade.

 
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Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:
Israel for example being the one to break the last major cease-fire by murdering a Hamas member and those around him at the time.

I am confused as to what cease-fire you are referring to. In 2012 alone over 400 rockets were fired towards Israel (before operation Pillar of Defense), with 166 in October and 91 in September, which I believe is what made Israel attack. I think I’ve read somewhere that Israel believed that the man killed was responsible for the constant rocket attacks, which is why he was targeted.

There hasn’t really been a cease-fire since the rocket attacks started 11 years ago, as evidenced by the rocket attacks not ceasing.
A list of rocket attacks on Israel in 2010
A list of rocket attacks on Israel in 2011
A list of rocket attacks on Israel in 2012

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

I agree with everything, except the assertion of Palestinian’s right to statehood. I don’t understand why that is their right. What gives them that right?

They are the native inhabitants of the land, the Right was bestowed on them by the UN through the very same resolution that is base for the Israeli right to State and Land. They like Israel where immediately invaded by other Countries like Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Unlike Israel they where annexed by same said countries, until those countries lost control of the Territories during the Israels 1967 attack. Since then thy have been occupied by Israel.

Also, Israel offered Palestine mutual statehood 3 times, and Palestine refused them all because they would have to recognize Israel.

No. The condition of recognizing Israel as a State was never a real reason for any refusals. The PLO and the PNA did in fact recognize the State of Israel. Arafat personally already in 1988.
All offered statehoods towards the Palestinians were totally favoring Israel awarding it with territorial gains and water rights. The terms were simply not acceptable.

Further, I’m interested in your conclusion that stopping Israel’s “strategy” would improve the economic opportunities of Palestine. Are you suggesting that jobs would increase there if the blockade would drop, and people would stop fighting Israel? What makes you think that they wouldn’t ship rockets into Palestine and make an effective fight at destroying Israel? The burden lay with you, on this one. It has to. You can’t just assert that if Israel would drop the blockade Palestine would be peaceful. That isn’t a good argument. Explain to me why Israel dropping the blockade WOULDN’T be suicide. Do that, and I’ll support the dropping of the blockade.

I did not say anything about the blockade(s). The blockade(s) is just one measure of many Israel uses to keep the conflict going. Just dropping the blockades (while it would indeed change a lot) would not be enough. More effective would for example be allowing farmers to return to their land(some are cut off by the security walls that where placed outside of the 1967 lines others by Israeli declaring their farms to military zones), redistributing water Israel is illegally taking from the Palestinians, so that the agriculture (which is their most important industry) can prosper. But even that itself would just be another step.
Other steps include:
1. Less harassment at checkpoints(the west-bank has been broken into many smaller zones, with checkpoints between them, it basically makes it impossible to work in a other zone on a regular schedule, since the Isralis use the check points to harass the Palestinians even when they are not closed to enforce collective punishment)
2. No more Air strikes except in direct support of battle being fought on the ground. Especially the ones where civilian targets are directly effected. The infrastructure is very bad and Israel does very much to keep it that way, as well as killing several civilians every-time they murder someone with air strike.
3. Reducing the blockade to actual military weapons and non-civilian equipment. Reducing the time lag of transporting things through the blockade. The blockade is primary aimed at economic suppression, than actually keeping weapons out.

Now the above are not out right answers to some of your Questions. I will answer them here, to highlight why the reasoning behind the questions is stupid if you have some knowledge about whats actually going on. Why whoever was feeding you those ideas was either lying to you or lied to himself.

What makes you think that they wouldn’t ship rockets into Palestine and make an effective fight at destroying Israel?

Because Israel can invade Gaza and the West-bank anytime it wants. Militarily its impossible for anyone in the Middle East to destroy Israel(with perhaps the exception being Turkey, who has absolute no desire). Even if Israel would not immediately receive support from its Allies, it is the most powerful Military compared to all its neighboring states together. Anybody that tried using Nukes to destroy Israel could only do so by Hitting the Palestinians and some of the Neighboring countries and destroying important religious location of Jews, Christians and Muslims as well. Israel is fucking small(though it and the Palestinians have a higher population density than neighboring states). Those having any success trying to destroy Israel would at the very least face both International retaliation and Nukes from Israel itself.

Originally posted by Pereking:
Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:
Israel for example being the one to break the last major cease-fire by murdering a Hamas member and those around him at the time.

I am confused as to what cease-fire you are referring to. In 2012 alone over 400 rockets were fired towards Israel (before operation Pillar of Defense), with 166 in October and 91 in September, which I believe is what made Israel attack. I think I’ve read somewhere that Israel believed that the man killed was responsible for the constant rocket attacks, which is why he was targeted.

There hasn’t really been a cease-fire since the rocket attacks started 11 years ago, as evidenced by the rocket attacks not ceasing.
A list of rocket attacks on Israel in 2010
A list of rocket attacks on Israel in 2011
A list of rocket attacks on Israel in 2012

Over 1,456 rockets were fired at Israel between November 14 and 21. Notice the difference when there is a war going on? The extra rockets in October (wiki says 17 rockets and 8 mortar shells in September from Gaza)where themselves already a retaliation against an Israeli air strike that murdered Abdullah Mohamed Hassan Maqawi and injured 11 others.
The Hamas does not control all militant islamistic groups. Having a cease-fire does not mean 0 attacks.

 
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Originally posted by Pereking:
Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:
Israel for example being the one to break the last major cease-fire by murdering a Hamas member and those around him at the time.

I am confused as to what cease-fire you are referring to. In 2012 alone over 400 rockets were fired towards Israel (before operation Pillar of Defense), with 166 in October and 91 in September, which I believe is what made Israel attack. I think I’ve read somewhere that Israel believed that the man killed was responsible for the constant rocket attacks, which is why he was targeted.

There hasn’t really been a cease-fire since the rocket attacks started 11 years ago, as evidenced by the rocket attacks not ceasing.
A list of rocket attacks on Israel in 2010
A list of rocket attacks on Israel in 2011
A list of rocket attacks on Israel in 2012

atleast four palestinians have been killed since cease fire along with 54 injured":http://www.imemc.org/article/64693

I agree with everything, except the assertion of Palestinian’s right to statehood. I don’t understand why that is their right. What gives them that right?

They have been there for like forever.
Do you know most success ful occupations in gaza?
they are tunnel digging and being hamas enforcer.
Engineers and accountants, who could have have earned very respectable income are working as tunnel diggers and hamas enforcers for 12$ a day.