Gun Issues page 23

2293 posts

Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:

Ok, for all of you who can’t understand what the 2nd Amendment is about, I’m going to give you a link. This is a true incident that happened in Athens, Georgia in the 1940’s. There is a clip from a movie that was made about it to give you a visual look at it. If nothing else, it is entertaining, but keep in mind that this incident is true. Corruption eliminated by Americans using their 2nd Amendment.

http://voxvocispublicus.homestead.com/Battle-of-Athens.html

Well, I can’t say that make it any clearer what the second amendment is about or why it would even be necessary… :/

e.g. A few things that immediately spring to mind/struck me from text like “Enraged veterans armed themselves and sought to obtain the ballot boxes to prevent electoral fraud and stop the government tyranny” were that;

a) There was no ‘government tyranny’ – there was one family, the Cantrells, in one county acting illegally.

b) It was completley unnecessary for the citizens to act under arms (at risk to their own and others’ lives)… they could of, en masse, taken their complaint through legal channels & or the press (Unless you’re trying to intimate the entire state legislature, judiciary, press and federal government were under the influence of the family concerned).

And/or to the ‘opposition’ party (I didn’t catch if they were nominally Rep or Dem)… as I’m sure they’d waste no time in bringing the ‘failings of the other party’ to light (for self promotion, obviously)

and c) This makes no argument for the 2nd being in existence… the 2nd isn’t necessary for gun ownership to be allowed, so these people could of held firearms legally without it. They could of also held illegal firearms or even improvised weapons (as they took the law into their own hands).

 
Flag Post

Don, the county is a level of government. One thing you seem to miss was that Sheriff Cantrell become Senator Cantrell and had an in with some of his cronies. Governments at all levels are subject to corruption, and not just in America. All countries experience some corruption. Some governments are totally corrupt. I’m not going to try and tell you we have an absence of corruption in Washington because we do have a lot of corruption. Sometimes it comes out and sometimes we never know what they are doing. That open government idea hasn’t been for a long time. Sometimes courts are part of the corruption problem. This kind of corruption goes beyond party lines.

If we didn’t have the 2nd Amendment, we would have been neutered decades ago. We would be another UK. What you don’t understand is they didn’t take the law into their own hands, they used a right guaranteed to them to correct the problem of corruption. The 2nd worked exactly like it was supposed to.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by EPeeR:

And this totally would not have been possible by bringing the issue in front of a federal court…

No, it probably wouldn’t be accepted for review by the court. As it didn’t make it to court, it is a mute point.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by DarkBaron:

I agree with jhco, we need the 2nd amendment to have firearms in our possession. A 60% plurality of firearm deaths being suicide are a small price to pay for safety in our home. I’m even willing to take the additional 18% of firearm deaths being interpersonal between loved ones and 4% of accidents, just so I can feel safe against that 18% of criminally related firearm deaths.

Hmmmm. You know, 98.345% of all figures like this are made up on the spot.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:
Originally posted by DarkBaron:

I agree with jhco, we need the 2nd amendment to have firearms in our possession. A 60% plurality of firearm deaths being suicide are a small price to pay for safety in our home. I’m even willing to take the additional 18% of firearm deaths being interpersonal between loved ones and 4% of accidents, just so I can feel safe against that 18% of criminally related firearm deaths.

Hmmmm. You know, 98.345% of all figures like this are made up on the spot.

The Center for Disease Control asserts 60% of firearm deaths are suicide on page 11. I recommend reading their method of investigation. The bureau of Justice Statistics says that half of all firearm homicide (36/2 = 18%) is interpersonal relationships, and that’s (extremely generously) assuming that every unreported homicide is the result of a stranger. Again, I urge you to read the method of investigation if you’re skeptical of the results.

I didn’t make this up, but simply because you can’t believe them doesn’t mean they’re infactual. In reality, that 18% of strangers criminally using firearms is likely much lower.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:
Originally posted by EPeeR:

And this totally would not have been possible by bringing the issue in front of a federal court…

No, it probably wouldn’t be accepted for review by the court. As it didn’t make it to court, it is a mute point.

“It probably wouldn’t have made it to court since the people didn’t do it.”

Brilliant arguing right there.

 
Flag Post

What you don’t understand is they didn’t take the law into their own hands, they used a right guaranteed to them to correct the problem of corruption. The 2nd worked exactly like it was supposed to.

You made a testable assertion. To the data!
First, we will use each state’s “integrity score”, determined by surveying journalists, and compare it to gun ownership.

Wow, that data is much cleaner than I thought it would be. And there is a correlation. Unfortunately, not in your favor, jhco. States with higher rates of gun ownership seem to have lower integrity scores. Perhaps the measure is off—it is more of an opinion survey. Let’s check some hard statistics.

The data is not quite as clean, but the correlation is still clear. More guns means more politicians arrested per million residents per year. It appears that guns do not prevent corruption. The data seems to show the opposite.

Sources:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/14/weekinreview/14marsh.html?_r=0
http://www.businessinsider.com/ranking-all-50-states-by-their-level-of-corruption-2012-3
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/health/interactives/guns/ownership.html

 
Flag Post

John, I didn’t make any claims that guns are used all of the time to prevent corruption. You are really reading a lot into that post. In that case, those WW2 soldiers cleaned up their county using a right guaranteed by the Constitution. There is nothing between the lines. How does your charts show anything about states violence coordinating with firearms? It doesn’t have enough information to tell what is what.

Guys, the CDC link wouldn’t work for me. the Bureau of Statistics is for Homicide and makes no mention of firearms until the tables and then shows firearms violence dropping. The last one was quite interesting with the corruption table.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:

John, I didn’t make any claims that guns are used all of the time to prevent corruption. You are really reading a lot into that post. In that case, those WW2 soldiers cleaned up their county using a right guaranteed by the Constitution. There is nothing between the lines. How does your charts show anything about states violence coordinating with firearms? It doesn’t have enough information to tell what is what.

Guys, the CDC link wouldn’t work for me. the Bureau of Statistics is for Homicide and makes no mention of firearms until the tables and then shows firearms violence dropping. The last one was quite interesting with the corruption table.

The CDC link is a pdf, so make sure your browser supports it. And you’re right, the BSJ does use it for general weapons, however the majority of homicides are perpetrated by firearms. so it isn’t a far cry to use the previous statistic for firearms.

 
Flag Post

People kill people it’s horrible and sad but it will never change because of any gun laws. So give up and buy a gun to protect you and your family.

 
Flag Post

Ok Dark, that is pretty easy to read. I am still not going to bend to anymore firearms laws. We have plenty on the books and don’t need to infringe on our rights anymore than we have allowed to this point. I ask myself why these young shooters pick the places they do to go on a rampage. The glaring commonality of all of them is the baring of firearms by citizens. Almost all of these shootings can be traced back to feel good laws like the 1000’ no firearm zone around schools, which incidentally, my house is backed up to an elementary school. Theaters with No Guns Allowed signs posted in their doors. These are open invitations for these mental misfits to use them for their rampages. The theater in Aurora had signs on their doors. There were two theaters in the area with these signs on the doors and the shooter had to drive across Denver to this theater. The Mall shooting in Oregon was at a location that didn’t allow firearms. Glaring evidence to ponder.

Another commonality is the mind altering drugs these people were taking for a supposed illness (I can never keep all of those acronyms straight) in school. All of these young people were taking things similar to Ritalin. Just these two things should make people at least think. Are we causing these shootings? Ritalin is known for causing depression and thoughts of suicide and these kids all commit suicide after their spree. Now ask yourself this, why does America use more of these mind altering drugs than any other country in the world?

Rather than blame firearms or the honest firearms owners, maybe we should look for the actual cause. If we delve deep enough into the real problems we can find out why these massacres occur and stop them. Blaming the gun is not the answer.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:

Rather than blame firearms or the honest firearms owners, maybe we should look for the actual cause. If we delve deep enough into the real problems we can find out why these massacres occur and stop them.

You do realize that this is part of what several of the recently active users on this forum are advocating?

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Wraymond:

People kill people it’s horrible and sad but it will never change because of any gun laws. So give up and buy a gun to protect you and your family.

LOL! People are. Talking to my son-in-law, there is a constant 12,000 people waiting for background checks to come back in my state alone. People are waiting almost a month to be cleared. The CBI, who performs these checks in my state are hiring more people to help. Now figure every state is doing the same or more. Some online vendors have emptied their shelves and I expect ammunition to disappear off the shelves like they did when Obama was first elected four years ago.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by jhco50:

Rather than blame firearms or the honest firearms owners, maybe we should look for the actual cause. If we delve deep enough into the real problems we can find out why these massacres occur and stop them.

You do realize that this is part of what several of the recently active users on this forum are advocating?

I haven’t seen them advocate looking for the real problem. All I have seen is more stringent laws on guns.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:

I haven’t seen them advocate looking for the real problem.

Care to explain just what this “real problem” is, because you just seem to say that guns aren’t the real problem, but never go into much detail as to what it really is.

All I have seen is more stringent laws on guns.

Well what ideas do you have for laws that fix the “real problem” without making it directly harder (meaning gun control) for those with malicious intent to get a gun?

 
Flag Post

There have been plenty of shootings in areas where gun’s are not banned. There was one in Switzerland today that killed three. Do you know how many guns they have? Yet, it wasn’t a civilian that stopped them. It was the police.
I challenge you to find instances where a mass shooting was stopped by someone who wasn’t a police officer, on duty or otherwise.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:


Another commonality is the mind altering drugs these people were taking for a supposed illness (I can never keep all of those acronyms straight) in school. All of these young people were taking things similar to Ritalin. Just these two things should make people at least think. Are we causing these shootings? Ritalin is known for causing depression and thoughts of suicide and these kids all commit suicide after their spree. Now ask yourself this, why does America use more of these mind altering drugs than any other country in the world?

My husband just started taking Ritalin, after almost 40 years of struggling with attention deficit and learning disabilities. Does it make him more susceptible to homicide? No. Does it make him happier and more focused? Yes.

The harsh truth—shooting crimes occur. They just do. Regardless of gun laws, or lack thereof. All we can do is hope we are not in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Now ask yourself this, why does America use more of these mind altering drugs than any other country in the world?

Um, because they are one of the most developed countries? Progress and phamaceutical research is not always bad, you know.

 
This post has been removed by an administrator or moderator
 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:
That last comment was completely uncalled for. Sometimes you let your eagle mouth overload your hummingbird ass, as in this case.

I’m not sure what you mean by that comment, but I felt I should say something, as phamaceuticals have helped us, and in some cases, even saved our lives.

Maybe the comment sounded harsh, and for that I apologize. But I’m not understanding the significance you believe age attributes to the effectiveness of Rx—my husband is 41, and just started taking something which helped him. So what? Is this more effective than if he’d started taking it at 15?

Pharmaceuticals can sometimes damage growing minds in children, you know that as well as I do. Drugs, whether legal or illegal are not always a panacea for everything.

No, they’re not, but I feel you are diving off the deep end sometimes, jhco. We have a child staying with us tonight (12 years old) who has ADHD and is taking Concerta. She is much more focused and happy to be around on her Rx than not. I make it a point not to argue with you a lot, but I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.

 
Flag Post

Of course they have helped us and there is a place for them, but are we stealing the childhoods of our children because we prescribe these drugs indiscriminately? Drugs helped save my life. I am not down on drugs, I am saying we should look into the side effects of what we are giving our young people. Look at the links I added to my above post.

This may be what your husband needed. I am not a doctor so I can’t make a diagnosis on him. Taking this drug at 41 is entirely different than taking it at 15 years of age.

I am not diving anywhere, I suggested we think about what could be the real problems instead of going off emotion and looking for a scape goat to feel good without fixing the underlying problem. With the 12 year old staying with you, she may be one who needs to be drugged, but drugging all of our school children so the will be zombies in school is not an answer either.

The point I’m trying to make is let’s examine all of the similarities these shooters have and find out what is the same. I just made two of them.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:


This may be what your husband needed. I am not a doctor so I can’t make a diagnosis on him.

No, I wouldn’t either. I would much prefer to let him describe his symptoms to the doctors and let them make their determination, which is what they did. I think if they present their findings and want him to take Rx for physiological or psychological reasons, it is probably for the best. I’m not going to dismiss it as malarky.

I am not diving anywhere, I suggested we think about what could be the real problems instead of going off emotion and looking for a scape goat to feel good without fixing the underlying problem. With the 12 year old staying with you, she may be one who needs to be drugged, but drugging all of our school children so the will be zombies in school is not an answer either.

I never said we should make everyone zombies either. Maybe ADD is a bit overdiagnosed, but based on my life and observations, I believe it is a very real thing. My husband really needs this Rx. Myself and my daughter—that’s a little different. We probably do have a touch of ADD, but at the same time, we are able to compensate and make good grades anyway. As long as that remains the case, and we don’t need additional assistance, we will stay away from Rx.

The point I’m trying to make is let’s examine all of the similarities these shooters have and find out what is the same. I just made two of them.

Do you really think these shootings are due to learning disabilities, though?

 
Flag Post

No, not the learning disabilities, the drugs they are giving them. As I said before, America uses more of these types of drugs than any other country in the world. We can’t logically think our country has that many children that need to be on these drugs. I won’t say this is the whole problem, but it is something that should be looked at as a possible cause, or at least part of the cause. One of the big side affects is depression and thoughts of suicide. These side affects are well documented in teenagers.

I also think we should look at some of the legislation that causes these schools and businesses to be targets. It is kind of like me putting up a sign in my yard that says: “My neighbor doesn’t believe in self-defense and I will do nothing to go against his beliefs”, with an arrow pointing to his house. This is kind of what The Journal News did to gun owners in their paper.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:

As I said before, America uses more of these types of drugs than any other country in the world.

Do we have any numbers or statistics to support this?

One of the big side affects is depression and thoughts of suicide. These side affects are well documented in teenagers.

I would actually be more concerned about the teenagers that are going through depression or another ailment without a Dr’s guidance. I guess I’m just a believer in Western medicine that way.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:

No, not the learning disabilities, the drugs they are giving them. As I said before, America uses more of these types of drugs than any other country in the world. We can’t logically think our country has that many children that need to be on these drugs. I won’t say this is the whole problem, but it is something that should be looked at as a possible cause, or at least part of the cause. One of the big side affects is depression and thoughts of suicide. These side affects are well documented in teenagers.

I also think we should look at some of the legislation that causes these schools and businesses to be targets. It is kind of like me putting up a sign in my yard that says: “My neighbor doesn’t believe in self-defense and I will do nothing to go against his beliefs”, with an arrow pointing to his house. This is kind of what The Journal News did to gun owners in their paper.

Your teenagers are spoiled brats, for them, not getting an Iphone is the biggest tragedy of life.
Throw them to mexico for a while and they will come back with a cool mind and a flaming bum.

 
This post has been removed by an administrator or moderator