Property IS Theft (UPDATE)

194 posts

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Nobody “owns” anything. When you die, it all stays here.

I believe we should have no property, take what you need.

We have enough food to feed everyone on this planet, (in fact, 1/3 of Americans are obese) so why are there still 20,000+ children dying each day from starvation worldwide?

Why cant we just “give” them the food, and why is it a crime is they take it without our permission? I think capitalism can answer that, and I think it should also end.

What do you think about “property”?

UPDATE see page 2

 
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So you don’t mind if I take your house, car, whatever? Property laws are the only thing that prevent that and give you right to reprieve when it happens.

 
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But you don’t need it, if you were homeless, which you are obviously not, you would be welcome to stay though.

 
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Try the Ten Planks of the Communist Manifesto . I agree wholeheartedly with the principle of your proposition. However, it is completely against convention and personal greed and would have to say that it is near impossible to achieve without excessive force, death, and destruction.

 
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Originally posted by pmr0078:

But you don’t need it, if you were homeless, which you are obviously not, you would be welcome to stay though.

Who is to say what I do and don’t need?

 
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this is a fine idea in theory but its too easily abused. i might “need” a fancy sports car because walking to the movies is too tiring. we need property to show what you have earned through work. money (dollars bills) is worth no more that paper, but it represents that you have worked to help the community and your nation, thus rewarding you with credit towards any product or service of your choice, whether it be food, a house, or a dvd. a government needs some incentive to get its citizens to work towards the country’s growth, so it creates a standardized representation for time put into work that allows you to receive the items you want or need. if we let anyone have anything, then there would be no incentive to work, then no business, then anarchy. the reason there is poverty is because there are people who havnt contributed to their community. it is sad that many people are born into poverty with no chance from the start, but they can only blame those who brought them to poverty before they were born, its sad but thats what it comes down to.

 
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I agree with about half of the Manifesto, and it is only meant to be for transitional purposes, so I can see how it can gradually expand and become a better system.

I agree wholeheartedly with the principle of your proposition. However, it is completely against convention and personal greed and would have to say that it is near impossible to achieve without excessive force, death, and destruction.

I believe greed is what a capitalist society needs to survive, if we get rid of all these advertisements and false ideals and values caused by capitalism, we can create a humanitarian society relatively peacefully.

Who is to say what I do and don’t need?

Saint, your questions undermine the capability of a persons mind to have common sense.

 
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Yeah, I mean there was no such thing as greed before capitalism came along. Oh wait there was, and it is even present in animals. You can’t get rid of it as it is a part of our basic behavior.

 
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the only way an organized plan with no property would work is if we were all honest, fair beings. and to tell you the truth, without some form of brain washing this is impossible in humans without violent enforcement from the government. a system without money (the most basic form of property) is one of a utopian race, not one of greed and lies like ours.

 
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this is a fine idea in theory but its too easily abused. i might “need” a fancy sports car because walking to the movies is too tiring. we need property to show what you have earned through work. money (dollars bills) is worth no more that paper, but it represents that you have worked to help the community and your nation, thus rewarding you with credit towards any product or service of your choice, whether it be food, a house, or a dvd.

I think the workers in Columbia and Ecuador who worked for 18 hours each day for 2 weeks to meet demand for roses on Valentines Day work a lot more than some CEO that makes millions while spending half the time golfing or going on business lunches.

So if what you are saying was true, how is it possible that the workers make $7.50 a day while the CEO makes millions?

 
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Yeah, I mean there was no such thing as greed before capitalism came along. Oh wait there was, and it is even present in animals. You can’t get rid of it as it is a part of our basic behavior.

proof?

if we let anyone have anything, then there would be no incentive to work, then no business, then anarchy.

When it really comes down to it, wouldn’t the incentive be to survive? Oh and Anarchy (smiles) it would create a need for people to become independent, which I think is a swell idea, turn your lawn into a garden, put solar panels on your roof. Todays society has become way too dependent on one another, Stock Market Crashes, thousands starve just because a piece of paper says so. We need to create a more stable society.

 
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a government needs some incentive to get its citizens to work towards the country’s growth, so it creates a standardized representation for time put into work that allows you to receive the items you want or need.

The problem is that money is not exactly proportional to time, effort, and energy. It has much to do with luck, inheritance, and more luck. To be honest, if we could give money based on effort perfectly, it would indeed be a socialist community. Capitalism distinguishes itself by giving more power and resources to those which offer most individual utility to society. This tends to polarize society as Marx said, and I believe it is by far the most repulsive aspect of capitalism. After all, capitalism is semantically identical to moneyism and socialism to sharing, and I doubt anyone would morally say that moneyism is superior to sharing.

 
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Originally posted by pmr0078:

this is a fine idea in theory but its too easily abused. i might “need” a fancy sports car because walking to the movies is too tiring. we need property to show what you have earned through work. money (dollars bills) is worth no more that paper, but it represents that you have worked to help the community and your nation, thus rewarding you with credit towards any product or service of your choice, whether it be food, a house, or a dvd.

I think the workers in Columbia and Ecuador who worked for 18 hours each day for 2 weeks to meet demand for roses on Valentines Day work a lot more than some CEO that makes millions while spending half the time golfing or going on business lunches.

So if what you are saying was true, how is it possible that the workers make $7.50 a day while the CEO makes millions?

im not saying i believe that, im saying that “need” can be exaggerated and has many meanings.

 
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Originally posted by pmr0078:

Yeah, I mean there was no such thing as greed before capitalism came along. Oh wait there was, and it is even present in animals. You can’t get rid of it as it is a part of our basic behavior.

proof?

greed is natural and abundant in all species. the leaders of predator packs will horde a corpse that their pack took down, letting the lesser creatures watch even if they are starving, and the leader will often let them die starving while it stuffs its face just to show dominance. it doesnt need nearly a whole carcass, but it will eat it just because it can.

 
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greed is natural and abundant in all species. the leaders of predator packs will horde a corpse that their pack took down, letting the lesser creatures watch even if they are starving, and the leader will often let them die starving while it stuffs its face just to show dominance. it doesnt need nearly a whole carcass, but it will eat it just becaus it can.

Actually, the “alpha male” eats first, and lets the others eat after, if it was greed, it would be like it eating until it was full, and then throwing away the food, which it does not.

 
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if we let anyone have anything, then there would be no incentive to work, then no business, then anarchy.

When it really comes down to it, wouldn’t the incentive be to survive? Oh and Anarchy (smiles) it would create a need for people to become independent, which I think is a swell idea, turn your lawn into a garden, put solar panels on your roof. Todays society has become way too dependent on one another, Stock Market Crashes, thousands starve just because a piece of paper says so. We need to create a more stable society.

your right, the current system isnt perfect, but its easier to maintain than your system.

(sorry for the multi post i screwed up the formatting so i just split it up)

 
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Originally posted by pmr0078:

greed is natural and abundant in all species. the leaders of predator packs will horde a corpse that their pack took down, letting the lesser creatures watch even if they are starving, and the leader will often let them die starving while it stuffs its face just to show dominance. it doesnt need nearly a whole carcass, but it will eat it just becaus it can.

Actually, the “alpha male” eats first, and lets the others eat after, if it was greed, it would be like it eating until it was full, and then throwing away the food, which it does not.

still, its just leaving the bits that it left over for the others to gobble up, and theres not always enough for everyone. a true mirror of your idea would be if they all ate at the same time and split equally, and that doesnt happen.

 
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Originally posted by pmr0078:

greed is natural and abundant in all species. the leaders of predator packs will horde a corpse that their pack took down, letting the lesser creatures watch even if they are starving, and the leader will often let them die starving while it stuffs its face just to show dominance. it doesnt need nearly a whole carcass, but it will eat it just becaus it can.

Actually, the “alpha male” eats first, and lets the others eat after, if it was greed, it would be like it eating until it was full, and then throwing away the food, which it does not.

I’m going to have to call you out on this one, because that is not greed. Greed is not throwing away, but instead taking first for yourself when you can, and it is an instinct exhibited in many animals.

 
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your right, the current system isnt perfect, but its easier to maintain than your system.

not really, this current system takes so many government officials, market specialists, stock analysts, and it could fall apart any minute. The system I am proposing is to create a more independent world, more freedom and more independence from things like energy and food.

 
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I’m going to have to call you out on this one, because that is not greed. Greed is not throwing away, but instead taking first for yourself when you can, and it is an instinct exhibited in many animals.

But the animal was hungry, and it only took what it needed, what it didn’t need, it left for the rest.

Is this dominant animal characteristic a right system? No. We are humans however and we evolved past that.

 
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Originally posted by pmr0078:

your right, the current system isnt perfect, but its easier to maintain than your system.

not really, this current system takes so many government officials, market specialists, stock analysts, and it could fall apart any minute. The system I am proposing is to create a more independent world, more freedom and more independence from things like energy and food.

Marx said that the proletariat would eventually revolt because of instability of the bourgeoisie, as there was in all other epochs of history. He predicted that Communism would take the world in the latter part of the 19th century through violent revolt, while I think he would be more accurate to say that general socialism would take the world in the 20th and 21st centuries through slow humanitarian reform. I think that socialism is inevitable in an consistent ethical society, and that is where ideologies lead us. Therefore, I agree that capitalism is not maintainable indefinitely, and I think it will decline slowly over this next century.

 
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Marx said that the proletariat would eventually revolt because of instability of the bourgeoisie, as there was in all other epochs of history. He predicted that Communism would take the world in the latter part of the 19th century through violent revolt, while I think he would be more accurate to say that general socialism would take the world in the 20th and 21st centuries through slow humanitarian reform. I think that socialism is inevitable in an consistent ethical society, and that is where ideologies lead us. Therefore, I agree that capitalism is not maintainable indefinitely, and I think it will decline slowly over this next century.

I agree somewhat, if the population was adequately educated well there would of been a revolution already, the population is not though. If we continue with the status quo, we will see a society much like Idiocracy: smart enough to complete simple tasks, dumb enough to not question authority.

 
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Originally posted by pmr0078:

Marx said that the proletariat would eventually revolt because of instability of the bourgeoisie, as there was in all other epochs of history. He predicted that Communism would take the world in the latter part of the 19th century through violent revolt, while I think he would be more accurate to say that general socialism would take the world in the 20th and 21st centuries through slow humanitarian reform. I think that socialism is inevitable in an consistent ethical society, and that is where ideologies lead us. Therefore, I agree that capitalism is not maintainable indefinitely, and I think it will decline slowly over this next century.

I agree somewhat, if the population was adequately educated well there would of been a revolution already, the population is not though. If we continue with the status quo, we will see a society much like Idiocracy: smart enough to complete simple tasks, dumb enough to not question authority.

The hope lies in the proles, to quote 1984.

 
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proof?

Any species that obtains something that is not absolutely necessary.

 
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The hope lies in the proles, to quote 1984.

:D

Good book, the quote reminds me of “hope lies in the smoldering ruins of empires”

Any species that obtains something that is not absolutely necessary.

so humans only?