Vigilantes - good or bad? page 8

212 posts

Flag Post

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

you can still sexually assault someone even if castrated. it only takes away a part of the risk, even if a very significant part, considering reduction of sex-drive.

Originally posted by vikaTae:

I’m not just talking castration/spaying here, I’m talking about the physical removal of the penis and testes for males, physical removal of the clitoris and ovaries for females. Cut them out and throw them away. Permanently kill the ability to have sex, and the production of hormones that makes it possible for them to get aroused in the first place.

Reading a post before you reply to it is such a good skill to have.

i was well aware what you were talking about. but there is other ways to molest someone even if you have no genitals.

(edit) i agree with the procedure, btw. at least in extreme cases, where there’s no doubt, and residivism likely, but life-long incarceration somehow not desired.

 
Flag Post
Could you please stop using that blanket phrase? It is utterly inaccurate and annoying. I’m a liberal, probably much moreso than Omega is, and yet my logic trains are completely different to his, with very different end results.

There is no ‘lib logic’, no ‘conservative logic’, just individuals and their own approaches. Otherwise it is like me comparing your arguments to Vanguarde’s as you’re both seemingly conservative, so your arguments must surely be the same…

Alright, I’ll stop using that blanket phrase. Just don’t call me a racist for saying illegal and Latino.

 
Flag Post

Hold on, there’s a vast difference between thinking the current justice system sucks and actually wanting vigilantes to run rampant throughout the streets. The people supporting vigilantism think only of the positive effects, of perfect vigilantes, and never of the negative effects, of psychopaths thinking their neighbour is a villain to society needing to be killed for dumping trash in your backyard. Supporting vigilantism for its positive effects is useless, it will not be without its negative effects.

 
Flag Post

Good vigilantes- paper spray and tazers.
Bad vigilantes-killing litters, minor vandals, ect.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Bunlip:

Good vigilantes- paper spray and tazers.
Bad vigilantes-killing litters, minor vandals, ect.

I think you are confusing self defense, vandalism and vigilantism.

 
Flag Post

The government ensures they have a monopoly on violence and law enforcement, they make it so that only they are allowed to use violence and enforce their laws and that anyone else doing the same will get put in a cage. But the government also decides what the laws are, and the people have no say in it. So people might not agree with the laws that the government enforces.
Whenever the government’s views on what it deems good and what it deems bad align with your views, and the government takes the appropriate action, then there is no problem.
Problems arise when the government has a different view than you on what is good and what is bad, which turns your country into a totalitarian state. And when the government does not take action, your country turns into lawlessness.

Examples of countries turning into a totalitarian state is the United States of America, where people are arrested for having a different political view or protesting rather than committing a crime.

A proper example of a country turning into lawlessness, is today’s Greece. People are forced into poverty which makes theft go up as well as increases the rate of protests, riots and acts of vandalism during these riots. The police cannot enforce all of the laws and does not want to enforce them either. Nazis are taking advantage of the situation in Greece and convince ignorant people into supporting their cause, they propose to take actions into their own hands and become vigilantes they claim they crack down only on immigrants(not Greeks) that break laws. But they also go into different neighborhoods and beat up innocent people that don’t look like Greeks. The police is also corrupt as can be, they support these Nazis and do not arrest them. So people in turn have to take action to defend themselves against these nazis and again have to act like vigilantes to fight back against the Nazis.

So vigilantism is neither good nor bad, the governments around the world gave themselves a monopoly on violence and enforcing rules, but if they’re not going to do it, somebody has to do it. But the people who are then going to do it, might also not agree with your view of what is good and bad, and in turn will also have bad effects on society.

 
Flag Post

Sources would be nice.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by EPR89:

Sources would be nice.

Have you been living under a rock? Here’s some of the more recent stuff, I’m sure you can find more if you actually bother searching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLOESazVHL4

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/26/golden-dawn-infiltrated-greek-police-claims

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-20105881

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvKAE8YHPT8 (turn on captions)

http://wsws.org/articles/2012/oct2012/pers-o23.shtml

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2012/10/24/parliament-lifts-golden-dawn-mps-immunity/

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/protocols-of-the-elders-of-zion-read-aloud-in-greek-parliament-1.472552

 
Flag Post

Sharangir, I somewhat agree, but the key difference is that the government’s point of view is well-documented. You know that if you do X you’ll get punished. Vigilantes are much worse in the sense that you can be “punished” for doing something you don’t know is “wrong” (being a homosexual, talking too loudly, being too handsome, or glancing in someone’s direction). Even if you know you’re doing something morally wrong (working within the law to steal money from people), vigilantes often don’t equalise the crime with the punishment.

I don’t think it’s fair to say the two (government law enforcement and vigilantes) are on equal ground. You’ll only want the “good” vigilantes, not the bad ones.

 
Flag Post

I have no problem with vigilantees, if they don’t punish – only detain. They are also required to provide full documentation including video footage of everything they do, and they only operate from a centrally-maintaned list of crime types.

 
Flag Post

punishment is crucial to the definition of vigilantism. if it’s not punishment, it’s probably not vigilantism, but bounty hunting.

 
Flag Post

The more it gets documented and the more they deal with actual crimes, the more it seems to be a subset of the law instead of baseless vigilantism. I don’t mind a force of civilians helping the police catch the bad guys, but I mind those who believe others are bad guys for being offensive to them and therefore killing them. Also, the reason why there are vigilantes is because they believe the law dealt with their punishment (if any) inadequately. So detaining them solves nothing, as the person may already be free from pursuit.

I don’t disagree with you, Vika, I think such a group would be helpful indeed. I just don’t think that’s vigilantism any more (like Omega said).

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

punishment is crucial to the definition of vigilantism. if it’s not punishment, it’s probably not vigilantism, but bounty hunting.

There are milder forms of vigilantism. Watchmen. Heard even Singapore has volunteers watch groups… recently on littering.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Darkruler2005:

The more it gets documented and the more they deal with actual crimes, the more it seems to be a subset of the law instead of baseless vigilantism.

Exactly. The police force is stretched thin as it is. An ability for trained, overseen civilians to take up the slack would be ideal.

All punishment and sentencing to be handled by the courts, with due process.

 
Flag Post

ah, a Schutterij, or Citizen Guard.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Darkruler2005:

I don’t think it’s fair to say the two (government law enforcement and vigilantes) are on equal ground. You’ll only want the “good” vigilantes, not the bad ones.

Well, same goes for government. I also only want the good governments. Unfortunately, I’m forced to live under systems I do not support, that are shared among all of the major countries in the world.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

ah, a Schutterij, or Citizen Guard.

People would act if grouped for a purpose. More people, out of the grouped, would act if they too, believed in that purpose.

Heard some politician said, “… efforts solely from the public will not be sustainable….”
Sometimes I think the rarity of such communal acts were a result of the divide and conquer tactics by the governance… that’s another topic….

 
Flag Post

An ability for trained, overseen civilians to take up the slack would be ideal.

Yes, yes, I agree with all of that. I just don’t think it is vigilantism.

Well, same goes for government. I also only want the good governments. Unfortunately, I’m forced to live under systems I do not support, that are shared among all of the major countries in the world.

The big difference, as I’ve pointed out, is documentation. You know what you’re up to in your country with the laws it has put up. Whether you’re under a liberal democracy or a cruel dictatorship, you know there are consequences to certain actions clearly documented in some place or another. You have no idea what you’re doing “wrong” to vigilantes and what kind of “punishment” you will receive.

It is an unfair comparison since the government works from the majority (most of the times) while vigilantes work from their individual viewpoints.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

punishment is crucial to the definition of vigilantism. if it’s not punishment, it’s probably not vigilantism, but bounty hunting.

you’re forgetting about “change of perspective”.
redemption.

teaching a lesson and making them a “good guy”

you should really think more about life and then maybe you’ll see what life really is.

 
Flag Post

they would also stand as a message itself: dont be a bad person, think about what you are going to do, evil never wins, its better to be good.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Galdos:

they would also stand as a message itself: dont be a bad person, think about what you are going to do, evil never wins, its better to be good.

… otherwise some crazy person might walk up to you and shoot you in the head, because he thinks that you look shady.

 
Flag Post

since we are the government(kinda the boss of the business)
we pay these people(police) and trust them to protect us against those that want to harm us. (bodygaurds)
if vigilantes are interested in helping, they should work towards the right positino and change things to help as many people as possible and help change the “rules” of enforcing laws.

 
Flag Post

The spirit of common good… at least its good intent….

 
Flag Post

So you don’t really want vigilantes?
Vigilantes are working outside the law. That’s why they are so dangerous. They use arbitrary judgements and just as arbitrary punishments. Vigilantes are essentially criminals, no matter whether they think they do good or not. If you see a problem with the laws, there are ways to change that. It will take effort, but it will ultimately lead to a society that is more just.
Vigilantism ultimately leads to a society with a bunch of crazy guys punishing people they deem dangerous. No objective judgements. You could be punched on the street because someone thinks you have killed his neighbour. You could be shot in the head because someone thinks you are a member of a secret underground organisation that wants to overthrow the government, because you have red hair.