The Excuse of Religion

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I’m currently reading “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins. Although at times I want to rip it into itty-bitty shreds and burn it, overall I think it’s been a good experience for me.

One part really stuck out to me was the part in which Dawkins described several court cases. In one, a boy showed up to school with a shirt saying, “Homosexuality is a sin, and abortion is murder. Some issues are just black and white!” Now, naturally, this shirt is just naturally offensive, even to those who believe the concept. The school disciplined the boy, and the mother sued the school. She did not sue for the right of free speech, but the right to free religion. Had she chosen to sue for the right of free speech, she would have been denied.

In another case, a church in Texas was granted the right to use illegal hallucinogens because “it helped them experience God”.

The point is, people are so afraid to be offended. Do you think that religious groups should be treated separately, to be immune to certain laws?

 
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The point is, people are so afraid to be offended. Do you think that religious groups should be treated separately, to be immune to certain laws?

I think they should be treated exactly the same as anyone else. The free practice of religion is great, but this has nothing to do with that.

This is using the excuse of religion to do things that would be otherwise illegal, and I have to wonder just what jury was dumb enough to think that was okay. The boy’s shirt had nothing to do with religion, and was nothing more than hate speech. If you wore a shirt that said “All blacks go to hell” (I feel bad just typing that D:), you would be disciplined very harshly. How is this any different?

Edit: Removed the hate speech. I just couldn’t stand having it in there.

 
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In another case, a church in Texas was granted the right to use illegal hallucinogens because “it helped them experience God”.

They do shrooms? in church? Why have I been buying my drugs for the last few years!!

The point is, people are so afraid to be offended. Do you think that religious groups should be treated separately, to be immune to certain laws?

In the USA Christianity rules supreme but (sadly) over here in the UK its Islam thats the free religion. If they tried to hold a Christian protest outside the government building the police would be out to crack skulls but make that an Islam hate speech and the police can’t lift a damn finger.

Religion has been an excuse for unacceptable behavior too long and we need to just have law that is unchanged no matter what your holy book of choice is.

 
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Do you think that religious groups should be treated separately, to be immune to certain laws?

short answer no

long answer noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 
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In another case, a church in Texas was granted the right to use illegal hallucinogens because “it helped them experience God”.

You know, if this was a religious debating thread I’d use that point as an argument on there beliefs can’t be very real if they resort to drugs, but I guess I shouldn’t derail it too much…

The point is, people are so afraid to be offended. Do you think that religious groups should be treated separately, to be immune to certain laws?

No. This is why atheists get annoyed, we don’t mind you doing whatever normal stuff you want. Just stop imposing on other rules.

Also it’s pretty obvious the judge that granted shrooms in church was also religious.

 
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You know, if this was a Christian debating thread I’d use that point as an argument on there beliefs can’t be very real if they resort to drugs, but I guess I shouldn’t derail it too much…

What does that have to do with Christianity? I didn’t mean to imply that it was a Christian church (it may have been, it was not specified)

 
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Well since it’s in texas and christianity is the dominate religion in America I made an assumption, but yes I could be wrong. I’ll edit it to religious.

 
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It was probably chrch of Bob Marley.

No, really. Religion shouldn’t be over law, because it is, no matter how convinced you might be, just a belief…a hope without any real foundation. This goes to Christianity, Islam as well as Atheism.

Reminded me about one case I read about a few days earlier. In Brasil, one guy repeatedly raped his own 9 year daughter and made her pregnant. After her mother gone to doctor with her, it was decided that she is expecting twins, and abortion has to be made beacuse chance of any of them surviving would be minimal. But more shocking was response of Church, it excomunicated all doctors participating and threatened to sue the mother for murder. No word about father.

 
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It was probably chrch of Bob Marley.

hey now, there is nothing wrong with weed :D

I think that shirt should be allowed anywhere, becuase of freedom of speech. So should drugs, if you want to do them, go for it.

 
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I think that shirt should be allowed anywhere, becuase of freedom of speech. So should drugs, if you want to do them, go for it.

The boy wore the shirt to school. I don’t think the shirt’s message was appropriate for a learning environment

I’m all for drugs being legalized, but I don’t think thats really the point. This group circumvented the law under the guise of religion. They were granted a right that individual citizen’s don’t possess because of their religious beliefs, which is unfair at best.

 
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Freedom of speech does not apply to hate speech.

 
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The boy wore the shirt to school. I don’t think the shirt’s message was appropriate for a learning environment

How is it not appropriate? The best way to teach about Americas glorious “freedom of speech” is to not have it in schools? I never understood that and I tried to fight it. Why don’t they discuss these important issues instead of avoiding them by blindfolding kids and telling them fables about how pretty the world is. I dont agree with the shirt but I sure wont deny their right to wear it, hell, Ill even stand up for them.

 
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Originally posted by Pink_Fuzzy_Bunny:

Freedom of speech does not apply to hate speech.

There’s a couple of other situations in which it does not apply, as well.

I remember reading this somewhere. (Heavily paraphrased)

“Suppose a man likes to swing his arms. He has every right to do so, freely, whenever and wherever he wants. However, his right to swing his arms at the point where his fist ends and my face begins.”

This same kind of logic can be applied to Freedom of Speech, of Religion, and of all the others in the First amendment. You have every right to do these things, as long as they do not hinder the rights of another.

 
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I dont think they hinder anyones rights, its just ensuring an argument. Its not saying “stop being gay or Ill kill you”, its not a threat, just a opinion.

 
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Do you think that religious groups should be treated separately, to be immune to certain laws?

The moment you excuse certain groups from the law is the moment it becomes worthless. So no.

 
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The moment you excuse certain groups from the law is the moment it becomes worthless.

Saint, if you made that up, great quote, Im going to quote you sometime :D

 
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How is it not appropriate? The best way to teach about Americas glorious “freedom of speech” is to not have it in schools? I never understood that and I tried to fight it. Why don’t they discuss these important issues instead of avoiding them by blindfolding kids and telling them fables about how pretty the world is. I dont agree with the shirt but I sure wont deny their right to wear it, hell, Ill even stand up for them.

And what about the gay kid that couldn’t concentrate all day, or the kid thinking about their mother who had an abortion as a murderer? This shirt was not conductive to a learning environment. I’m fine with someone wanting to express their opinions by wearing a tee shirt, but they definitely should not be wearing it at a school filled with impressionable kids. Should the students right to express themselves trump the other kids right to learn in a safe environment? Definitely not.

Besides, student’s free speech rights are pretty limited. I doubt the child actually had the “right” to wear that shirt at all. Just look at Morse v. Frederick (AKA Bong hits 4 Jesus case) as an example. I’m not saying I agree with this limitation of rights, in fact I abhor it, but thats the way the books are written.

 
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Well let the kids learn about those and decide for themselves, and the gay kid could of wore a shirt saying “Im gay, so what?”

Besides, student’s free speech rights are pretty limited.

Which was very fun when I did a speech about censorship, I swore for the whole speech, not just to swear but when talking about swear words. (i e I mentioned them by name, instead of saying “some bad words you may have heard of” i just said “words like fuck, shit …” At first the whole class was stunned and they all looked back to see the teachers response. XD

 
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Let them decide their political and religious positions on their own time; they don’t need to do it in a manner that disrupts other students right to learn.

 
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Jesus preach his disciples to adhere to law of the land, except those that conflicts with the laws of Moses.

I should say beforehand that both laws are not perfect. More like behaviour guidelines within the community.

Any freedom of expression that stirs any resentment is promoting hate.
Any use of substance to substantiate an divine encounter is delusional (there should be a better word than this….)and encouraging dependency other than spirituality.

In fact, the principles of what Jesus preached should be of a higher standard than any man made laws. Asking for immunity of certain laws means that the church has degraded to something less than the existing governing body….

 
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One benefit of school uniforms is not having to put up with such things.

 
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In fact, the principles of what Jesus preached should be of a higher standard than any man made laws.

Man made laws definitely exist. God and Jesus don’t.

Asking for immunity of certain laws means that the church has degraded to something less than the existing governing body….

As it should have. The Church is just something for people with beliefs with absolutely no foundation, and the government rule the country.

Originally posted by pmr0078:

Well let the kids learn about those and decide for themselves, and the gay kid could of wore a shirt saying “Im gay, so what?”

Besides, student’s free speech rights are pretty limited.

Which was very fun when I did a speech about censorship, I swore for the whole speech, not just to swear but when talking about swear words. (i e I mentioned them by name, instead of saying “some bad words you may have heard of” i just said “words like fuck, shit …” At first the whole class was stunned and they all looked back to see the teachers response. XD

What WAS the teacher’s response? :P Anyway, children’s speech rights ARE limited, especially with strict teachers. If you so much as make a jokey remark, they’ll scream at you. There’s only one teacher in our school I know of (the form tutor) who doesn’t say, “Don’t you dare use language like that” when you say Crap or damn. In Year 6, we were playing a weird maths game, and then my friend lost and he said, “Oh damn”, the teacher proceeded a lecture, “Language like that is unacceptable, I’m tempted to stop this game now because of what you just said…etc.”

But I want to know how deep the crap you got in was.

 
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[wrong topic]

but, religion does get a free ride and it’s quite sickening

 
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yeah, i mean what happened to my right to call black people the n word

“Because they don’t like it.”

why am i not allowed to call people from pakistan pakis

""
bq. why cant i slander entire races

""
bq. WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE WORLD WE LIVE IN

It’s become less rasist and horrible. Would you like to live in the Victorian era?

why is it frowned upon to call gays fags

""

oh wait, freedom of speech needs to be handled with care, and political correctness isnt as bad as 99% of people would have you believe

It’s quite bad. People who scream at the very mention of any kind of rasist joke are just too protective.

 
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i dunno if you picked up on the sarcasm

but it was sarcastic fyi

except for the last sentence