Your opinions of Abortion page 3

In many disciplines, things which will eventually come, are considered at future value, and not just as their present value. If you applied this to human life, you would value a fetus the same way as a human. This is not a ridiculous concept, just a difference in opinion.

Except that opinion doesn’t matter here that much. If abortion is disallowed, it is. If it isn’t disallowed, it isn’t. I am for abortion in the right conditions, but you won’t hear me yelling that over the street if it becomes forbidden by law.

You are saying things I have already said…

You are saying things I have already said…

Isn’t that what happens in most threads here? When looking solely at the case of abortion, there will always be people for and people against. I myself say it should be allowed in a limited amount of cases. Not allowing it in those cases is not only making life harder for the woman, it’s removing some of the woman’s rights.

I guess that means the morning-after pill is murder too. If you applied that same logic, you’d value a zygote the same as a fetus.

And to continue the argument, condoms are murder. Because you’d value the sperm and egg combination the same as a zygote.

And, in fact, abstinence is the same. Because every month a woman goes unimpregnated, that’s another “future human” you just killed.

Where do you draw the line?

Where do you draw the line?

By not looking at the case itself, but at everything it affects. Abortion isn’t about killing the fetus, it’s about prevention for the woman of having a life she doesn’t want. It’s likely that the future child will be unwanted too, if she’s asking for an abortion, you might want to consider the future child’s feelings on that too.

Looking at murder, the only one getting “happier” from allowing murder is the murderer himself. You’re making a lot of people worse off. Combining the public utility makes you see abortion is in fact wanted, and murder isn’t.

In matters like these I like to be really cynical and look at the best scenario for the human race altogether.

The facts are.

There is almost 7 billion humans on the earth.
1000 years ago there were about 310 million. Source
7 billion humans consume more food a year than the planet is able to produce.
This problem will not wipe out the human race, but reduce it’s numbers within 5-10 generations (My personal opinion)

Concerning these statistics I’d say abortion should be allowed in all nations.

If I take morals into consideration and that unborn children are living human beings, I would still be an A-hole and say that abortion should be allowed. I’m a selfish person, and I wouldn’t want my life to be ruined by an unwanted child, but if the mother would want it there is nothing I could do about it, so i would do all I could to at least make it a happy child (I know, I’m a coward, but don’t tell me you wouldn’t do the same)

The laws today (in Norway at least) leave the choice of keeping a child or not, all on the mother, she decides if the child will be born or not. It’s her body, and I agree that all choice should be hers.
Men can screw women and not care about the results, but women can’t, they have to live with the knowledge of an unborn child if they decide to abort.

7 billion humans consume more food a year than the planet is able to produce.

If the planet is not able to produce it, where is it coming from?

Clearly, we’re creating “food debt” which future generations will pay.

So I hear Soylent Green tastes pretty good.

Killing is illegal? Have you ever heard of someone in critical health being taken off life support. That’s killing, but its still legal, becuase its in a HOSPITAL. Shouldn’t it be the same for babies. This is needed for things like rape. Also in case of protection failing. Also, technically if its an embryo, then its not a human yet, so it doesn’t have human rights. Kind of like how we could kill our dog simply becuase we don’t want it. Its still legal becuase its not actual murder upon a person.

Originally posted by SaintAjora:

7 billion humans consume more food a year than the planet is able to produce.

If the planet is not able to produce it, where is it coming from?

best response since the cellphone doomsday response. :D

Originally posted by jitters:

Abortion is murder and should be legal. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or trying to take away a woman’s right to choose.

or you could put the baby up for adoption, there’s a decent option without sticking a needle in the kid’s head.

EDIT: Unless the mother’s life is in danger, but if the baby would live even if she died, mother’s choice.

Originally posted by tyralpha:

Originally posted by jitters:

Abortion is murder and should be legal. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or trying to take away a woman’s right to choose.

or you could put the baby up for adoption, there’s a decent option without sticking a needle in the kid’s head.

Even if there is risk to the mother’s life?

Originally posted by Iggyshark:

Originally posted by tyralpha:

Originally posted by jitters:

Abortion is murder and should be legal. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or trying to take away a woman’s right to choose.

or you could put the baby up for adoption, there’s a decent option without sticking a needle in the kid’s head.

Even if there is risk to the mother’s life?

That would be the exception, true, sorry I didn’t bring that up before, that was just a response to Jitters.

And what about the time off work required? Should the State pay for lost income during that time, or is this just a “Hah, you got pregnant so now you’ve got to survive for a couple of months on no income because we’re not going to let you abort the little parasite” thing?

Originally posted by Jabor:

And what about the time off work required? Should the State pay for lost income during that time, or is this just a “Hah, you got pregnant so now you’ve got to survive for a couple of months on no income because we’re not going to let you abort the little parasite” thing?

Such a thing called Maternity leave.

Originally posted by tyralpha:

Originally posted by Jabor:

And what about the time off work required? Should the State pay for lost income during that time, or is this just a “Hah, you got pregnant so now you’ve got to survive for a couple of months on no income because we’re not going to let you abort the little parasite” thing?

Such a thing called Maternity leave.

Which does not even begin to cover things. In america for example, it’s 12 weeks unpaid.

eh, to be honest I don’t know the ins and outs of it, I thought it was payment while the mother was unable to work, please enlighten me, also, why are you on at 2:00 in the morning?

I thought it was payment while the mother was unable to work,

It’s not.

All it is is that the employer is required to let the mother return to work in the same position after having the child, instead of potentially having to look for another job.

And even if it was paid, how would that help self-employed people?

Originally posted by tyralpha:

eh, to be honest I don’t know the ins and outs of it, I thought it was payment while the mother was unable to work, please enlighten me, also, why are you on at 2:00 in the morning?

I don’t sleep.

maternity leave is good in sweden, it’s okish in the uk

12 weeks unpaid? that’s a complete joke.

Originally posted by SaintAjora:

7 billion humans consume more food a year than the planet is able to produce.

If the planet is not able to produce it, where is it coming from?

I’m sorry, I should have said that this is just something I have heard from a doubtful source.
And we haven’t passed 7 billion yet (should call someone a dumbass, but I won’t, because my argument sucks anyway)..

Most importantly, this will not be a problem immediately after we pass 7 billion (if we assume my doubtful piece of information to be true).most foods have a decent expiration date and we wouldn’t really have a problem until we eat every edible creature on earth.

This is really off-topic about a bad statement, so sorry about that.

Ok people. I’m just gonna clear up a few things.

1. Just because it’s an embryo doesn’t mean it’s not alive.
2. Babies can really start feeling pain at about 5 months in the womb, and 5 months is when most abortions occur.
3. It’s asinine to me that animals have more rights than unborn babies. It’s just plain wrong. Not to say that animals shouldn’t have rights, but these babies should have rights too.
4. LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS! If a baby is murdered, it is being deprived of all 3 of the most basic rights in the U.S. constitution.
5. It is true that a mother should be in control of her body, but the baby isn’t really part of her body. It is simply riding with her for a few months and is an entirely separate being.
6. Rape is obviously a heinous crime that leaves serious and emotional scars, and sometimes leaves women pregnant. But is it really fair for the mother to commit another crime, murder, against her unborn child?
7. When a person kills a pregnant woman, he or she is charged with a double homicide. So why wouldn’t aborting the baby be considered murder?
8. Life is considered, at least to some degree, valubable, no matter if you’re a Christian, Muslim, Atheist, or anything else. So why would you murder a baby?
9. This one is for people with a religion. I myself am a Christian, so I’m going to use the true god, Jesus, in this example. Why would Jesus put a child in this world if he didn’t have plans for it?
10. Abortion revolves around the will of the mother. But what do you think the baby would want?

2. Babies can really start feeling pain at about 5 months in the womb, and 5 months is when most abortions occur.

You know this how?

5. It is true that a mother should be in control of her body, but the baby isn’t really part of her body. It is simply riding with her for a few months and is an entirely separate being.

Not yet

6. Rape is obviously a heinous crime that leaves serious and emotional scars, and sometimes leaves women pregnant. But is it really fair for the mother to commit another crime, murder, against her unborn child?

Why yes, it is

7. When a person kills a pregnant woman, he or she is charged with a double homicide. So why wouldn’t aborting the baby be considered murder?

Because it’s not murder.

8. Life is considered, at least to some degree, valubable, no matter if you’re a Christian, Muslim, Atheist, or anything else. So why would you murder a baby?

Stop murdering bacteria.

9. This one is for people with a religion. I myself am a Christian, so I’m going to use the true god, Jesus, in this example. Why would Jesus put a child in this world if he didn’t have plans for it?

Because he’s bored, that’s why he created humans in the first place

10. Abortion revolves around the will of the mother. But what do you think the baby would want?

No idea. Why don’t you ask it?

1. Just because it’s an embryo doesn’t mean it’s not alive.

Technically “it” is alive from conception. The question is more over what “it” means and when “it” should be granted rights.

2. Babies can really start feeling pain at about 5 months in the womb, and 5 months is when most abortions occur.

Fetal time lines are done in weeks; in this case 26 weeks mark the establishment of thalamocortical connections. This is the absolute earliest you can make a case for, and even then I fail to see how it is relevant as it cannot fully process this sensation.

3. It’s asinine to me that animals have more rights than unborn babies. It’s just plain wrong. Not to say that animals shouldn’t have rights, but these babies should have rights too.

Why? I should also note that the word baby refers to an organism after birth. Babies of course have greater rights than animals.

4. LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS! If a baby is murdered, it is being deprived of all 3 of the most basic rights in the U.S. constitution.

Rights that don’t apply to something that isn’t a recognizable individual or independent human, however you want to term it.

5. It is true that a mother should be in control of her body, but the baby isn’t really part of her body. It is simply riding with her for a few months and is an entirely separate being.

It is a parasitic organism that is highly dependent on the mother; it is essentially a part of her body.

6. Rape is obviously a heinous crime that leaves serious and emotional scars, and sometimes leaves women pregnant. But is it really fair for the mother to commit another crime, murder, against her unborn child?

It isn’t a crime if it isn’t against the law.

7. When a person kills a pregnant woman, he or she is charged with a double homicide. So why wouldn’t aborting the baby be considered murder?

According to common law it doesn’t work that way. I believe the criteria is it has to have breathed at least once, although this may vary by state. “Fetal homicide” laws (which I note acknowledge it as a fetus, not a baby or whatever) are a state matter and a discrepancy that should perhaps be addressed. Nonetheless you can’t do a backwards progression and use it to justify your claims.

8. Life is considered, at least to some degree, valubable, no matter if you’re a Christian, Muslim, Atheist, or anything else. So why would you murder a baby?

People don’t murder babies. They abort developing organisms in a parasitic state. Also note that we are not a theocracy ruled by the laws of the church. I know this may come as a surprise but I swear it is the truth.

9. This one is for people with a religion. I myself am a Christian, so I’m going to use the true god, Jesus, in this example. Why would Jesus put a child in this world if he didn’t have plans for it?

Not a theocracy. Do you know what that means? Your personal beliefs have no relevance in the law.

10. Abortion revolves around the will of the mother. But what do you think the baby would want?

What does the bacteria on your hand want every time you wash them? Surely Jesus put the bacteria there for a reason, how dare you murder it? Oh sorry are we done the emotional and religious appeals already?

Lrdwhyt – Slippery slope much? Cute charts don’t make false presumptions any less false.