The [N] Ideal: Brainstorming and Gameplay page 4 (locked)

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You searched for ‘elements’, not damage types.

Let me help, then.

discussion thread

five basic types of energy damage

one of the aforementioned ‘additions’

Memorable quote:

It does a different kind of damage because it doesn’t fit into one of the existing pidgeonholes. That’s all.

That’s what I’m saying.

I wouldn’t mind having both Elemental and Weapon resistances (Alternately, Elemental resistances plus Crush/Slash/Stab/Whatever resistances).

So wouldn’t I, actually.

 
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Ah, thanks. Those links were very helpful.


OK then, these are the elements I’d like to propose:


None (No elemental alignment.)
Kinetic (This one’s kinda special – I’ll talk more about it in a minute.)
Fire (Heat, flame, etc.)
Wind (Gases, sound, etc.)
Earth (Rocks, dirt, metals, etc.)
Water (Fluids, etc.)
Ice (Coldness, etc.)
Lightning (Electricity, etc.)
Toxic (Poisonous things, acids, etc.)
Dark (Generic darkness, evil things, etc.)
Light (Generic photons, holy things, etc.)
Aether (Balance/Chaos, etc. This one shouldn’t be treated as “special,” or “powerful,” either; it’s pretty much for anything elemental that doesn’t fit into one of the other elements. Think of it as “Other.”)


This would pretty much cover every element I could find, on both the pages Minna linked to above, as well as here, here, here, here, here, and other sources which don’t have any wikis to link you to (or at least, none that I’m aware of). That’s 12 elements total – the same number that we had in [N], but with less repetition (Metal falls under Earth, for instance).


In addition to these elements, I’d like to propose this:

Originally posted by DarthKitty:

Crush/Slash/Stab/Whatever resistances


[Well, just Crush, Slash, and Stab resistances; we wouldn’t need to include resistances to “Whatever.”] These so-called “Weapon Resistances” would essentially separate magical and physical attacks. Magic, being pure energy running on a specific “wavelength,” gets around weapon resistances (allowing magical attacks to deal more damage), but also costs more energy to use than physical abilities.


Now, it’s impossible to completely nullify a physical blow – even if you have heavy armor, getting hit in the side by an arrow will still leave a bruise. This can be taken care of, on the formula side (when we get to the “making formulas” stage, that is), using something like (1.25 - WpnRes), where WpnRes (weapon resistance) is <= 100%. This would ensure that weapon resistances don’t nullify damage entirely, and that you can’t absorb a sword blow. [I know, I’m jumping ahead; I just want to prove that what I’m suggesting is feasible. You can ignore the specifics, if you like.]


…Well, in part. Technically, it would still be possible to absorb sword blows, with the right elemental resistances – if you absorb Water-elemental attacks, and someone swings a Water-elemental sword at you, you would absorb the damage. And here’s the kicker – it would be possible to have None-elemental resistance; after all, this is still a “wavelength” of energy.


Swords are not a “wavelength” of energy (We’re going to ignore Einstein on this one.), so swords shouldn’t be absorb-able (unless the sword is enchanted, like that Water-elemental one I mentioned earlier). Therefore, swords can’t be elemental. I don’t mean that they should be None-elemental, since that can be absorbed. I mean that swords (and all non-enchanted, or otherwise magicked physical attacks) should be entirely devoid of any element.


This is problematic, since it doesn’t sound reasonable, coding-wise. A workaround is needed – and that’s why we have the hidden element, Kinetic. Physical attacks would be Kinetic-elemental, but, nothing would supply Kinetic resistance, and the element wouldn’t be shown/mentioned to players, so physical attacks would appear to have no resistance.


What are your thoughts on my proposals?

 
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Well, basically… you see, that’s why I said ‘damage types’.

You suggest Earth as an element, but then, you know – the entire point I’m making is that no matter if it’s a rock or a mace, it hits like a heavy blunt object. Chances are water does the same when it hits you.

Swords are not a “wavelength” of energy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_wave


My reworking of your list:

• Piercing (making holes)
• Shear (splitting, cutting, ripping)
• Crushing (compressing)
• Fire (Heat, oxidization)
• Disintegration (Complete force-based breakdown at a low level, sound chalked up to here)
• Dissolution (Chemical breakdown at a low level, both water and acid go here)
• Cold (Thermal contraction, hypothermia, freezing internal fluids)
• Lightning (Current messing with electron setup, messing with nerve signals)
• Toxic (Poisonous things – inorganic enemies are bound to have a full resistance here)
• Evil (Magic or techniques flavored so despicable and wretched it just deals damage on its own)
• Divine (Magic or techniques flavored so saintly and great the awe causes things to be awestruck for damage)

There is no neutral, unresistable element. If something’s made of something so tough it can resist everything, we let it.

Of course, what cards will be there will depend on us, so we can simply not make any cards like that instead of mucking around with the mechanics.


For sexample: A syringe (an oversized one) filled with acid would deal piercing damage as it was stabbed into you, then a lot of dissolution damage as the acid was injected and dissolved your innards.

If it was boiling acid and the syringe was very hot in general, you could take fire damage too. If the syringe was hooked up to a car battery and the needle was metal, you could take lightning damage too as the current went through you to the ground. If it was a particularly evil syringe, you could take evil damage just from that.

Of course, that’s assuming that all happened. In practice, there’ll be one or two damage types per attack, most often, not that anything’s stopping you from going overboard.


I’d like to suggest one unique damage mechanic. Basically – when a piercing or shear attack hits, and that damage is blocked (even if only partially), then some of the damage is turned to bonus crushing damage that’s added to existing crushing damage (if any).

Say, you hack at something with an axe. It’s a heavy axe, so you rip through it and it gets a huge wound. The part where the axe makes the rift-shaped wound is the shear damage that was taken, the part where the very impact of the axe broke things is the crushing damage (it isn’t much).

Now, say you’re doing the same against a sklelton or something metal. Now the enemy gets significantly less bifurcated, but instead, the full blunt of the axe hits.

Crushing damage is the most similar to kinetic damage, as it’s basically damage by the very fact something hit you hard in the simplest way. That mechanic is as close to yours as I could make it, save for that something could still resist most if not all crushing damage (say, some Mr Fatso with so much fat everything just bounces off if it’s blunt, but you can actually carve his gut up with a sword or whatever – not a hammer)

 
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[BTW, I saw your post ~30 minutes after you posted it; I’m waiting to see other people’s thoughts on our conflicting ideas, before I post. Not that anyone seems to be doing that, mind you…]

 
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We have something like three or four people here that can respond. 25% frequency is a lot!

 
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[I just want to make sure I’m giving people the time to read and respond. Anyway, I’ll wait ~2.5 hours more before responding, so that, if they’re available, people can respond.]

 
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Really, your idea is a nice one. I quite like it, but, I don’t think it particularly belongs in a Flash game. The problem? It just seems too complex and realistic for our target audience. Most people who play RPGs (RPGs, like Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest, not Tabletop RPGs, like Dungeons and Dragons) don’t want more realism. If they did, then there would be a lot of complaints about the lack of realism. By making a game which is more realistic, we alienate some players. Sure, you and I both like our realism, but not everybody does.


Additionally, your system is a little too close to Dungeons and Dragons. Remember: Bad artists copy; good artists steal. It’s not original enough.



Those are my main arguments against your system. I have a few, more minor and nitpicky issues as well. Feel free to ignore everything below this point.


First, a rock would only physically hit you like a heavy blunt object, if that rock were physical – IE, if this didn’t apply, like, say, if you were levitating a rock that already existed. Earth, as an element, is more about the “essence” of rocks. It’s pure energy, which has a particular signature or pattern that matches rock. Monsters would have resistance to those particular energy signatures, which I’ve been calling “wavelengths.” If a physical rock were hitting you, it would be treated as Physical damage, at which point Crush/Slash/Stab resistances would kick in.


Oxidization has nothing to do with why fire hurts. Fire hurts because the particles are moving at intense speeds, bombarding your skin, smashing cells, nerve endings, and the like. By your words, an attack which caused rust would deal fire damage – rust is oxidization.


Disintegration and Dissolution are quite similar, both in name and in effect. Players would likely get the two mixed up.


As I said before, trying to explain the “simultaneous multiple types of damage” thing would be pretty time consuming to explain to players, pretty confusing for some players, and the whole thing would be pretty difficult to code. I’d rather not.



So, once again, it’s a nice idea… elsewhere.

 
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…?

 
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Again, I’m opting out of the resistances discussion for now. It’s up to you and Minn.

If I were to say something, I think that we are over thinking this. Just separate things into categories. The more you into actual properties, the more you prove that the periodic table is right, making the Fire/Air/Earth/Water system invalid.

 
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Hence, I’d be in favor of either using the simple, four-elements Hellenic, which hopefully we can all agree on, or my system.

The more you into actual properties, the more you prove that the periodic table is right

In actuality, I don’t care about elements much. Acids, bases, some other funny chemicals (probably) – they’re all corrosive.

Dissolution could be renamed Corrosion, actually. You’re right.

Anyway, many elements are corrosive, many elements can cut, many elements can slam, many elements can poke, some elements can burn… I don’t track what’s a weapon made of, but rather how does it deal its damage, so that the enemy can react to damage.

 
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What we can do is break things down like this for damage types.

Physical:
Slash
Stab
Blunt
Pierce

Magical:
Heat
Cold
Aetheral (As a plain type)
Healing

The types can be edited or such, though each attack has an element, and an attack type.

 
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Why break them down? Damage’s damage. Magical or mundane, it doesn’t matter. I can throw a mol’tov just fine if I want some heat.

 
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Fair enough. If we’re going to take either the traditional RPG route, or a more realistic D&D-esque root, I opt for the traditional one, which will alienate fewer players. We can just handwave how it works, like games in the past have done. Using the Hellenic set would be doable.


None wouldn’t exist, nor would Kinetic, Ice would be included in Water, Lightning in Wind, Toxic in Earth, Light would probably count as Fire, Dark wouldn’t exist, and Aether (the fifth Hellenic element, added to the list by Aristotle) would exist for anything else (again, it would pretty much mean “Other”).


Everything would have an elemental alignment of some sort. Most physical attacks would fall into Earth. This way, things like Crush/Slash/Stab wouldn’t be needed either. There would be no “Defense” or “Resistance” stats, since those things would be covered by elemental resistances.


Since magic typically costs more than physical attacks, magic would have to be made more useful or powerful, in order to balance things out. An easy way to do this would be to include a relatively simple (addition and subtraction, from 3-5 different sources) hit chance thingy, which would only apply to physical attacks. Magic would always hit, but would be more costly, whereas physical attacks would be more cost-effective, but would miss somewhere around 25%-50% of the time.


It’s a clean and simple system, which should allow for plenty of content (especially if monsters have moves… but we’ll get to that one later), and which should be relatively easy to code.

 
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Light would probably count as Fire, Dark wouldn’t exist

Why not? They aren’t too foreign to newer players.

 
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Originally posted by Tyki7125:

Light would probably count as Fire, Dark wouldn’t exist

Why not? They aren’t too foreign to newer players.


Because Light/Dark aren’t part of the Hellenic set.

 
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I still opt for a simple physical element, or a simple magic/physical split, like simple RPGs do.

Like Protector does, actually – its mages have elemental alignments, its non-mages can hit physically or not. But with the Hellenic elements, not Protector’s ones.

 
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Originally posted by Minnakht:

Why break them down? Damage’s damage. Magical or mundane, it doesn’t matter. I can throw a mol’tov just fine if I want some heat.


Here, you say one thing…

Originally posted by Minnakht:

I still opt for a simple physical element, or a simple magic/physical split, like simple RPGs do.


…and here, you say the exact opposite. Make up your mind, man!


I digress. I’m of the opinion that the system should be relatively simple, and that the content should make the game good. For instance, this; even the developers seem to realize that their game sucks (if their constant advertisements for their later, and higher-quality games are anything to judge by), but, when you do a bit of digging, you find that their system is fairly complex.


My point by all of this? We should try to keep the system moderately simple, and let the content speak for itself; having multiple layered methods of defense (“a simple magic/physical split,” as you put it) clutters up the system (and the coding!), and makes things that much more confusing for players, without actually improving the game any.


I’m also opposed to having a physical element. Why? If we’re going to use the Hellenic elements, then we should actually use the Hellenic elements! Sort of like color palettes – if you’re going to use a predefined color palette, then you need to actually stick to that palette; you can’t alter it on a whim. If we’re going to commit ourselves to using the Hellenic elements, then we can’t modify it, because it’s already been defined. If we want to have other elements, then we need to make our own set, which would look remarkably like this:

Originally posted by DarthKitty:

None (No elemental alignment.)
Kinetic (This one’s kinda special – I’ll talk more about it in a minute.)
Fire (Heat, flame, etc.)
Wind (Gases, sound, etc.)
Earth (Rocks, dirt, metals, etc.)
Water (Fluids, etc.)
Ice (Coldness, etc.)
Lightning (Electricity, etc.)
Toxic (Poisonous things, acids, etc.)
Dark (Generic darkness, evil things, etc.)
Light (Generic photons, holy things, etc.)
Aether (Balance/Chaos, etc. This one shouldn’t be treated as “special,” or “powerful,” either; it’s pretty much for anything elemental that doesn’t fit into one of the other elements. Think of it as “Other.”)

 
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Make up your mind, man!

In my system, the former applies, since it can accommodate any form of damage. When using Hellenic elements in a much simpler system, I still want to keep some kind of a difference.

Basically, now I’m going for a straight Final Fantasy, save for that we’d be using Hellenic elements. Strength, Magic, DEF, MDEF, Water Wind Earth Fire. Should be simple enough.

Sort of like color palettes – if you’re going to use a predefined color palette, then you need to actually stick to that palette;

I vote for ‘canvas not painted over’ to be a colour

 
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Originally posted by Minnakht:

Basically, now I’m going for a straight Final Fantasy, save for that we’d be using Hellenic elements. Strength, Magic, DEF, MDEF, Water Wind Earth Fire.


Again, far too much copying of ideas coming from you. First it was D&D, now it’s Final Fantasy. Next you’ll be suggesting we call our spells “PSI whatever,” or that we rename Fire “Frizz.”

Originally posted by Minnakht:

I vote for ‘canvas not painted over’ to be a colour


facepalm

 
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Copying ideas. What can I say? I try to think of something and since I pretty much most of the time work in analogies and comparisons and similes, something that’s just like the thing I thought of but has been done before comes to mind. And once it comes, I include the simile in my post, as to give you a better idea.

Anyway. So. My current proposal is that there would be physical and magical attacks, that’d be the base damage system.
For the elemental damage system BC wants, I propose Fire Earth Water Air as the only four elements, which can be added to base non-elemental damage or not.

That’s a simple one. Pokemon has a normal and special attack split, and it has a bunch of types, with Normal-type being the baselinest one there is, quite accurately representing basic strikes.
But oh look, I did the simile thing again! You must be so angry now.
Jeer. It’s hard to think of something that hasn’t been done before. And I’m not sure if that’s even worth it. Most often the tried ideas are the best.

Like it – okay. Don’t like it – suggest another, check if me and Tyki and whoever else like it.

 
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I’m just against direct copying – we’re smart enough to be somewhat original, even if it is completely impossible to have an entirely new idea. This is the essence of the old saying, “Bad artists copy, good artists steal.” We don’t have to be completely new, but we should barrow from other ideas, and expand upon them, or alter them in big ways, so that the idea becomes our own. This is the heart of all good design, everywhere; see something you like, take it, alter it, use your new and improved version, if it doesn’t turn out so well, try again. You’re leaving out the most important part – altering old ideas, so that they become our own.



Tyki has apparently decided that his input on this matter- even if it’s only discussing suggested ideas, as opposed to proposing his own -is worthless; I disagree, but it’s impossible to persuade someone of something which they’re utterly convinced of. Unless he changes his mind, we won’t be seeing him much until we’re through with elemental (and now defensive) discussions. :(


ros is apparently done trying to fix FGF, but I think he mentioned that his roleplay was also in shambles, so… who knows when, or even if, that will ever finish. BC’s still doing who knows what, and is typically avoiding this topic – perhaps he wants to avoid debates, or something. I don’t know.


So essentially, it’s just us, until we can wrap this bit up, or until something happens.



Anyway, elements and stuff. I suppose I’m just following what the Greeks believed – that the elements described everything, and that everything fell into one of the five elements. Really, the only thing that would be non-elemental would be empty space – a vacuum. All things fall into the category of “things”; the only thing which is not categorized as a “thing” is nothingness, which isn’t really a thing but the absence of a thing, and since it’s not a thing, it can’t be categorized as a “thing.” No paint isn’t a color of paint, because it’s not paint. Empty space isn’t a kind of shoe, because empty space isn’t a shoe.


If we’re using the Hellenic elements, then there isn’t anything which falls outside the five elements. If we aren’t using the Hellenic elements, then we can most certainly have non-elemental stuff, but if we’re not using the Hellenic elements, then there’s no reason to group Ice and Water together, when you could have two separate elements for the two strikingly separate things.


Here’s an alternate way of thinking of the classical elements, provided by TVTropes – if it hits like a solid, it’s Earth; if it hits like a liquid, it’s Water; if it hits like a gas, it’s Wind; if it hits like a plasma/energy, it’s Fire; if it hits like nothing we’ve ever seen before (What would a ghost hit like, for instance? We have no clue, because we’ve never seen a ghost.), it’s Aether. Physical attacks hit like solids, therefore, they’re Earth.

 
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Then I’ll say it like this: we’ll be using elements only for what is ‘a flavor of magic’, so to say. Kind of like religion. When an attack is mundane enough, it doesn’t care about its alignment. When it isn’t mundane, it cares enough to affiliate itself with one of the sides. It’s also kind of like that wavelength theory thing of yours.

Basically, I want ice and water to be booked under Water. I want to keep the amount of elements low here. To four, not counting the ‘I don’t care’ option. Simplicity, remember? If people can’t keep track of my system, they won’t be able to keep track of anything more complex than ‘four elements plus not particularly’

It’s kind of like the MARDEK system, just without all the fuss with morality and whatever other stupid non-cardinal elements are there – yet it includes basic unflavored physical damage.

…jeer, now I wish I never said ‘Hellenic’. It just felt like a meaningless adjective meaning the grouping of the four cardinal, basic, most known elements, but it seems you’re interpreting it in some mystical way that’s making me uncomfortable.

 
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So… you didn’t actually mean the Hellenic elements when you used the word “Hellenic.” Huh. OK then.


In that case, your proposal will work – everything is Neutral, then particular things are “flavored” by magic towards one of the five elements. Fire for heat and light, Wind for gases and electricity, Earth for rocks and plants and metals and all of that other “earthy” stuff, as well as toxins, Water for fluids and coldness, and Aether for otherworldly things like ghosts, or dimension-ripping.


In order to keep defense simple, monsters only have elemental resistances, and nothing like “DEF,” or “MDEF.” In order to keep magic balanced, what with it’s higher cost, physical attacks miss or are otherwise prevented from connecting somewhere around 25% to 50% of the time (although some physical attacks could be more accurate; we’d leave that up to individual cardmakers).


Any objections? If yea, we’ll do some more debating. If nae, we’ll be down two discussion topics, and we’ll move on to discussing “Hands and Battlefaileds and the like.”

 
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In order to keep defense simple, monsters only have elemental resistances, and nothing like “DEF,” or “MDEF.”

Disagree

If we’re going with four (or five) elements only, then we have a physical/magical split. If we don’t have a physical/magical split, we go with the detailed damage types system.

That’s about as low on complexity as I’m willing to stoop.

 
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Originally posted by Minnakht:

In order to keep defense simple, monsters only have elemental resistances, and nothing like “DEF,” or “MDEF.”

Disagree

If we’re going with four (or five) elements only, then we have a physical/magical split. If we don’t have a physical/magical split, we go with the detailed damage types system.

That’s about as low on complexity as I’m willing to stoop.

^This