Topic: Forum Games /
[Community-Related] Inclusion & Elitism.
[excuse me if i’m talking out of my ass because i haven’t followed this farce]
[no, you don’t need a system to deal with ConstantProgress, he’s not really impeding your ability to play games or enjoy the forum if everyone who doesn’t like him bans him from their games or ignores him; since vote is pretty unanimous that he sucks then that’s effectively a ban from fgf until he stops sucking]
[until he breaks the site or forum rules it’s probably up to individual discretion what you do about him; true, there’s a rule against being an asshat, but if we applied that tellhank would get banned too; constantprogress might be a dick, but so is tellhank; that rule’s generally taken pretty lightly or we’d have bans everywhere]
[personally i’ve read a couple of his posts and already i think he’s an asshat but then so are lots of people]
[if you think he’s going to ruin your game, don’t let him join]
[if you don’t like what he posts, don’t bother reading his posts]
[hell, since vote is pretty much unanimous that he sucks you can probably get away with forummuting him]
[as long as it doesn’t get in the way of anything else, people are free to argue with him if they want, i still think it’s stupid but whatever; hell, civil discussion is fine, i just don’t really expect both parties to be able to hold one]
Originally posted by Helltank:
General Arguments Against Letting Scrubs Into FGF
1) It is generally acknowledged that FGF receives many newcomers.
2) It is generally acknowledged that a certain percentage of these newcomers do undesirable things like spam and make posts of extremely low quality.
3) It is generally acknowledged that some of these undesirables can be very persistent if shown any mercy and will keep on making spammy/shitty posts when told nicely to cease and desist.
1) For the good of FGF, an effective method of ensuring undesirables do not infiltrate us must exist.
2) As experience has shown, talking nicely to them does not work very well.
1) The first time, tell them to stop making low-quality posts.
2) The second time, order them to get out of FGF.
3) The third time, flag all their posts and boycott their games.
1) Will ensure that we do not have undesirables
2) Will ensure that future undesirables are scared away
3) Will ensure that genuinely good newcomers are allowed to stay.
[firstly i’ve gotta say that you aren’t exactly talking nicely to him helltank, but whatever, i’m sure you have your reasons]
[another thing; the second time you order them to get out of FGF yet they’re just free to like… not do that? it’s only the third time you actually do something? remind me what the point of this step is?]
[as far as i can see there are basically three methods you can do anything by; collective boycott, institutional boycott or just calling the mods to deal with things]
[i’ll start with the mods; assuming copro is genuinely trying and is just an idiot, they have actual authority unlike helltank who is basically just a swearing idiot on the internet; signaling that he (and probably some of the other parties involved judging from the contents of helltank’s posts, but as i said i haven’t been following) are in the red would probably make him stop. reading copro’s posts, mind, there’s always a good chance that he’ll just be like ’i’m institutionally oppressed!’ and will stick around forever because it’s basically not the mods’ job to ban anyone; still if they’re fair and unbiased and try to cool things (like the mods generally are and do) then maybe he’ll listen. i have my doubts. of course, gevock is basically perennially unavailable and there’s still no guarantee that things won’t just do a developous, as it were]
[institutional boycott is basically what helltank suggests, i assume, since we already have the power to boycott anyone we like. if that’s not what he’s suggesting, he’s free to correct me, but i can’t see anything else that we don’t already have in this area. assuming this suggestion IS what i think it is, honestly this is so flawed it’s laughable. firstly, what are you going to do, set up a public blacklist? post in the master thread a list of people who are to be destroyed at all costs? the problem with such a thing is that you have to get unanimous agreement; how are you going to make sure other people on the forum join in with the blacklist of doom? threaten them with the blacklist of doom if they don’t comply? if not everyone wants to blacklist someone it’s impossible to follow through on it without thrashing around and laying waste to the community. and if you don’t think agreement has to be unanimous, who the hell arbitrates? who decides that ‘x is a shitposter’? and then even if you go with unanimous vote, who gets to vote? do i get to vote even though i never play any forum games? does some random person just wandering in get to vote? if copro makes an alt who wanders in, do they get to vote? if you have standards for voting in that case, where do you set them? post count is not really much of an indicator; and if you choose people by group decision then it’s the same problem of who gets a vote on that. and then what if someone changes their mind later, they don’t want to be in on this blacklist of doom thing? does the blacklist just fall down, or is it ETERNAL AND UNFORGIVING]
[second, who the hell enforces such a thing as ‘flagging all their posts’? do you just get everyone who doesn’t oppose the decision actively to join you in whacking the blacklisted over the head? or is there going to be some small, overzealous group of people just going around whacking people; ignoring what happens if those people diminish or just don’t check threads, it’s the mods’ bloody job to moderate. and if you don’t exterminate their posts wherever you find them, you’re basically just banning them from certain places, which makes me question the need for some kind of formal system; surely you can manage your own places]
[third, do you really think such a thing is going to make the community look good? remember how every time someone new showed up to the developous encounter they were like ‘but wait, what if he’s not such a bad guy, why are you guys bullying him?’ before experiencing him for themselves and joining the crowd of people who don’t like him? unless the people were there when the decision was made, they won’t take one side or another until they get more experience. and what if copro is still there, and he happens to be convincing? even if he’s not, does having the GIGANTIC DOOM BLACKLIST where people can see it really leave a good impression? ‘all ye who enter here, obey rules or we’ll collectively lynch you’.]
If someone is deliberately spamming/trolling with no attention to advice given by others, nor the rules, then action should be taken.
Otherwise If they are genuinely wanting to create a forum game but lack experiance thus leading to a lower quality thread, then we should help them through the way and give constructive advice.
Helltank if your “system” was implemented, I (along with many others) would not be here today. Just look at some of my early games :)
[you can see from posts like this one that some people would be generally concerned about the possibility of being banned; do you really think people are going to want to join a community with something like that taped up? even if they do, do you think it creates a friendly atmosphere? and that’s if it doesn’t get worse over time; assuming we manage to hold it at the current standard we probably still look like a bunch of pricks]
[fourth, as some people mentioned, what if the person changes? fgf tends to attract a lot of young people; y’know, people who haven’t matured? if you go out of your way to DESTROY THEM UTTERLY then there’s no room for them to come back and not suck unless they stealth alt. and even then, there’s some chance that they might be resentful. sure, if people who don’t like them boycott them, people who don’t like them boycott them. if on the other hand the community comes together to destroy them and all their works they probably won’t come back or will even make deliberate efforts to disrupt the community; and since the mods are so slow about anything, they’ll get away with that for quite a while. and no matter how much enthusiasm you may have now, would you really want to flag thousands of copro’s posts? not just copro; any ‘shitposters’ who drift in?]
[fifth, although you can basically get any post removed by flagging it, you miiiight just attract the attention of the mods after a while. which is basically calling in the first option i dealt with. and do you seriously expect them to be okay with this? i can imagine gevock’s disappointment already, followed by some comments about loving this community]
[this isn’t even mentioning how stupid the ‘three-strike’ system is, because that’s not integral to the idea]
[however all of these problems can be avoided by you using your own personal discretion and ability to boycott; if you don’t want him playing your games, why are you sitting around talking about how much of an issue he is instead of stopping him from being an issue to you personally? if other people find him an issue, they can deal with it personally]
[helltank might just be telling you ‘okay y’all imma ban him, you too’, but if people are free to make their own decision on the matter, there’s no need for discussion on WHAT WE MUST DO AS A GROUP TO STOP THIS MENACE; a discussion about elitism and inclusivism, sure; a discussion about copro’s behaviour, if you really want; a discussion about DESTROYING THIS THREAT TO THE FABRIC OF OUR SOCIETY? not really necessary. anything you don’t have the power to stop him from doing, the mods do; even if he just bitches endlessly in a thread you own you can easily flag the posts for being off-topic and therefore spam]
[honestly, helltank’s motives are hardly very noble, and you might as well ignore the guy; if you argue about it with him then nothing will get done anyway and you’re still capable of boycotting copro on a personal level; if you agree with him, nothing can be done as far as i can see other than wrecking some trains]
[as for copro himself, he’s an idiot; he’s either immature, selfish and entitled or pretending to be; if he wants advice i suggest he should consider other people, but honestly i think more than anything he just needs to get a bit older and more mentally developed if that’s the case]
[all i’ve seen him do is complain about how oppressed he is, but in some cases i really can’t blame him considering helltank’s behaviour]
I wouldn’t flag all their posts, or do it this quickly, but this. This. Most people won’t deserve this. Most people won’t NEED to be ran off. But, when they DO need to be. THIS.
[go effect something about it yourself rather than being butthurt]
I like abusing undesirables.
[well, there you have it; it’s an ego-trip]
[i’m not entirely certain you’re desirable, helltank]
Originally posted by Helltank:
There is a difference which you are overlooking. FGF as a whole isn’t stupid enough to approve obvious trolls. Unlike the voting masses.
[y’know i seem to remember people considering approving developous, considering the original title wasn’t meant to be a badge of respect, but an indicator of frequency of visiting]
Originally posted by Lebossle:
I would define “shitposter” as someone who repeatedly breaks similar warnings. Be it inactivity, game-throwing, or spam-like, or whatever. In light of this definition, if you think the situation is getting too bad you can always make a log of this kind of thing so that when a host gets a sign they can predict how much they can trust that person won’t have to be modkilled and why would they be.
[toss them from the game, get substitute, ban them if they do it more often than you can handle]
[ban them from your games if it’s too much, restart the game if it was at an early stage, get substitutes]
you can always make a log of this kind of thing
[a log is fine; people can still use personal discretion; maintaining such a thing might be difficult, though (who does it?), and what if people don’t want their personal shames up for viewing? if you don’t actually link context for that, people reading it won’t have a proper indication of how trustworthy a person is and it’ll basically become a place for defaming people you don’t like]
I just want to play games. So, can this thread be locked, thus, this conversation over? I really just don’t want this anymore. Just quit the conversation:
as I have done…right…NOW.
[good job quitting; rather than ignoring them you continually shoot posts back at people]
[then again on the other hand a lynch mob might be forming, so it’s not like you have many other options]
I think this is obvious. You clutter up the forums with garbage, you are a nuisance to deal with in games that you join(to the extent that you got eliminated pre-game round 1 by host decision from Moles) and you generally act whiny and irritating.
You clutter up the forums with garbage
you are a nuisance to deal with in games that you join(to the extent that you got eliminated pre-game round 1 by host decision from Moles)
[don’t let him join your games until you can handle him then]
you generally act whiny and irritating.
It is my hope that if I do this often enough you will either clean up your act or gtfo. Both outcomes are acceptable.
[he clearly won’t ‘clean up’ if you just vehemently personally attack him a lot; it’s more like he’ll just constantly bitch about how you’re trying to utterly destroy him]
[leave? maybe; chance is just as good that he’ll stick around just to annoy people]
[besides, we know your actual motive:]
I only pick on idiots. They’re enjoyable to pick on.
[this is a very long post written up pretty quickly; please excuse any oversights]