Recent posts by Kholai on Kongregate

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Topic: Crush Crush / About Nina (some spoilers for those that have not unlocked her)

Originally posted by Kalli_Kashnikow:

well, red hair, green eyes, not scotish.^^

The Scots have the highest proportion of red heads on the planet, and they also stereotypically tend more towards blue and green eyes, so I’m not sure why you’d use that evidence as a reason against it.

That said, her outfit is stereotypical Irish and she loves potatoes, so it’s pretty clear what the devs were going for here: Canadian.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / List of base Merc builds

Originally posted by ArcanisX:

BREAKING NEWS

The default Pyrastrike spellset, e.g.
LS
Diamond Pickaxe

was tinkered before HoL upgrades (and probably before secret spell upgrades). Back then it was a “hit a Pyramid” game and Pickaxe was the best secondary spell boost.
Not anymore.

Right now, with Halls upgrades and secret spell trophies,
a) Pyrastrike is “hit the HoL” and
b) There is a better spell to boost HoL production then Pickaxe.

Hellfire Blast, upgraded!

Therefore, Pyrastrike spell list should be:
LS
Hellfire Blast (upgrade essential).

I have 848 excavations. Diamond Pickaxe is, at 25% per excavation, 20000% at 800 Excavations. With the change to a base 110% FC chance, that makes x201 x 5.1 / 2.1 = x488, better than HfB.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / No competitive nicenary builds?

Originally posted by Audaces:
Originally posted by Kholai:

While each their own in regards to mana and scaling (I’ve certainly no complaints with my Angeline chaining Nicenary Combo Strike/Shapeshifting build’s growth), note that every nicenary build is a clicking/assistant build. Nicenaries has a minimum x41 to clicking power and a huge number of assistants which you are skipping out on, making Elven Luck somewhat lacklustre. Even assuming you had 100% buildings and no assistants at all, just having four spells running means Luck would only be an 82% improvement (x7500 * 1% /x41 to clicks from crusaders).

Speaking of that, which Reincarnation are you on? Until R15 no such long-term builds are needed, so I assume you’re farther in the game?

Further? Nah, I sit around testing build viability, not progressing.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / No competitive nicenary builds?

Originally posted by peterondercin:
Originally posted by Audaces:
Originally posted by peterondercin:
Originally posted by Audaces:

You have no mana generation upgrades in this build – how are you getting that 51 mana per second? Or did you mean Shapeshifters instead of Bardic Knowledge?

Demon Bloodline

Yeah, I missed that. Overall I think that this can work (in a long run, that is…), but I’d swap Bardic Knowledge (which won’t be high – maybe 1500%) for Shapeshifters, and Demon Bloodline for Fairy. F/I/B are the producers in this build, and it would help that immensely. Elven Luck won’t work that well in an assistant build, so why not have Swarm of Fairies in its place?

I understand the need for nicenaries, but it’s still a fraction of what Fairy Strike would get in that time.

With Shapeshifters your mana-reg. is misserable in the beginning. With Demon Bloodline I can get to 10k CS and 30k spells in 2,5 days. With Shapeshifters it would take me like 8 days.

Swarm of fairies does not multiply well with Holy Crussaders.

This is not an assistant build (hence no Professional Assassins) and everything boosts buildings (which means also clicks) and not assistants.

This is a long build, maybe if someone could do some math and compare short term builds like FairyStrike with som long term builds it would be nice.

I am also looking for a cool name for this build. Any suggestions?

While each their own in regards to mana and scaling (I’ve certainly no complaints with my Angeline chaining Nicenary Combo Strike/Shapeshifting build’s growth), note that every nicenary build is a clicking/assistant build. Nicenaries has a minimum x41 to clicking power and a huge number of assistants which you are skipping out on, making Elven Luck somewhat lacklustre. Even assuming you had 100% buildings and no assistants at all, just having four spells running means Luck would only be an 82% improvement (x7500 * 1% /x41 to clicks from crusaders).

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / List of base Merc builds

Originally posted by Edenlight:

Grmann, it’s a mistake, it’s 1-2 hours, not 1-2 day, you can trust the build :)

So, Good times or Dabbles in nice? Which is better when? :)

Dabbles is a reasonably quick build, suitable for shorter, sub-24h games with a decent bit of growth. Delves is for longer games. You’ll start out a lot slower than Dabbles, but your growth rate accelerates greatly over time. Since short runs are mathematically preferable, Dabble as long as dabbling works.

Originally posted by why_amihere:

Brilliant, thanks Vatic!

Formula looks like Spells Cast = 5 x ( x + 1 ) where x is assistants earned. I guess people ideally want it expressed the other way around…

Still, 150 assistants after only 113k spells means it’s potentially epic for long builds.

Try Floor{[Sqrt(0.8X + 1)-1]/2}.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / List of base Merc builds

Dabbles in Nice.

Diamond Pickaxe
Grand Balance

Faceless Bloodline (Zero Excavation, shortish term viability. You could also use Titan with Excavations)

Strong Currency
Oversized Legends
Mining Prodigies
Druidic Vocabulary

Angelic Wisdom
Cyclopean Strength
Bardic Knowledge
Overgrowth

Rainbow Link
Battlehammers
Building Jungle
Professional Killers

Harlequin 512.

Skip Warrior Barracks. Works better in later reincarnations, since you’ll need the extra mana cap to cast all your spells.

Delves in Pleasantries.

Combo Strike
Grand Balance

Angelic Bloodline

Strong Currency
Oversized Legends
Mining Prodigies
Druidic Vocabulary

Angelic Wisdom
Cyclopean Strength
Shapeshifting
Overgrowth

Rainbow Link
Battlehammers
Building Jungle
Blade Dance

Harlequin 512.

Skip Warrior Barracks. Set Call to Arms (1) and Combo Strike (2), then ignore it. Unless your client crashes or closes, you should never lose Angeline, and your casting will naturally accelerate, which leads to faster casts and faster growth as time goes on.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / List of base Merc builds

Originally posted by why_amihere:

artcrow,

You’re forgetting that Diamond Pickaxe increases FC chance, which increases click reward (and therefore assistant production) thanks to the Elven Heritage. Diamond Pickaxe will increase assistant production by about 11000% with only around 150 excavations.

But generally, not quite – changing PyraStrike for a LabyStrike (Territorial Expanse for the worse of Sylvan Treasure Frills, Oversized Legends or Mining Prodigies in T1, adding Gold Synthesis instead of Demonic Presence in T2 and ditching Rainbow Link and Professional Assassins in T3 for Swarm of Fairies and Titan Obelisk) is actually an improvement by about 70% if you ignore the Harlequin bonus. PyraStrike is better after the Undead Heritage starts giving you 6+ assistants though (ignoring Harlequin), so it’s not good for a long-term build at high gem counts.

Maths:
T1: TE = 19 assistants * 50 * 0.79% = 7.5x multiplier to total production
T1: STF = 17*3.16/2.25 = 23.9x multiplier (to assistant production, assumed to be total due to high assistant count and Oversized Legends)

T2: GS/DP = 1.5/2.2

T3: PA = ~20x multiplier, SoF = x68 at 50 assistants
T3: TO/RL = 2.25/0.9

LabyStrike/PyraStrike = 7.5 / 23.9 * 1.5 / 2.2 * 68 / 20 * 2.25 / 0.9 = 1.82x better – ignoring Harlequin
LS/PS = 1.82 / 8.29*3.16 = 0.69 = 69% as good as PyraStrike

If we drop Mining Prodigies instead because it’s not as good, MP needs to be 0.69*23.9 – 1 = 1550% or less (about 271 excavations), although by that stage you can probably get a better return from Dwarven Ale. Or you can just burn through some excavations, because you never need THAT many.

While I agree it’s not a long term build, and generally Fairy Chanting would only be at best x3 Expanse, x3 Assistant production, ~x3 Cyclopean, and x2 Trade Union and Syndicate, which is only x108 or so, which isn’t great, I believe the most interesting part of the premise is Undead Bloodline. Sure it’s not got much going for it long term, but assuming an 81 assistant Deadline would make Expanse an x39.5 multiplier, x5.26 to Assistant production, x5.22 Cyclopean, x1.68 Trade Union, and x2 Syndicate.

Ignoring Expanse, that’s an x92.25 multiplier, a very interesting Titanline alternative even without Expanse. It might even have some long term utility if/when Deadline gives slightly fewer than 81 assistants, since that’ll be a big jump in production, rather than the dwindling utility you’d normally expect from assistants, and still would actively be improving any added Heritage assistants by the added multiplier, so it wouldn’t be that bad.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / List of base Merc builds

Artcrow: Since you’ll be assuming R15+ mana, have you considered Angelic Wisdom instead? 2700 mana is 22,500 buildings at R15, and assuming 25 mana/s, that’s five tax collections at a 40% higher production bonus which taking considerably less time between combos.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / List of base Merc builds

Originally posted by why_amihere:

Black Diamond
Range : R12+, 2400 max mana required
Characteristics : Like PyraStrike, but without waiting for a Pyramid hit
Alignment
Evil
Spells
Night Time
Diamond Pickaxe
Tier 1 Upgrades
Goblin (1,1): Strong Currency
Dwarf (1,3): Mining Prodigies
Demon (1,3): Evil Conquerors
Elven (1,3): Sylvan Treasure Frills if more than 1730 HoLs use Titan (1,3): Oversized Legends

Tier 2 Upgrades
Titan (2,3): Cyclopean Strength
Drow (2,2): Blood Sacrifices
Demon (2,3): Demonic Presence
Faceless (2,3): Overgrowth

Tier 3 Upgrades
Dwarf (3,1): Battlehammers
Druid (3,3): Building Jungle
Demon (3,2): Burning Legion
Drow (3,2): Professional Assassins

Harlequin Bonus : 512% // 343%
Bloodline : Titan
Instructions : Cast Call to Arms and Night Time, wait 8s, cast Diamond Pickaxe then get in as many Tax Collections as you can.

Depending how many exchanges you’re expecting, you may wish to switch Professional Assassins for Rainbow Link. Baseline 2k outproduces 120 × 8 Royal Exchanges.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / List of base Merc builds

Originally posted by Cunari:

It’s also a mistake to have lightning strike in an elven luck build as lightning strike really ramps up drow heritage decreasing the proportion of income from building production.

While true, note that exchanges also increase actual production, so while you’ll be increasing a smaller proportion of your production, that proportion will be higher than a larger proportion without Lightning Strike.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / So, you're stuck in Re2?

Originally posted by Nethlion:
Originally posted by Kholai:

If you can get 1700 mana (10,000 buildings), try Contingent Casting: God Hand + Call to Arms + Diamond Pickaxe + Holy Light + (Planned is better) Tax Collection with less than 2100 mana set for contingency.

This works to get a full quadruple cast combo, and should net you multiple tax collections, each one getting twenty five times more production than just the triple cast. Well worth the sacrifice of 800 mana.

What should mana regen be at?

At 1700 mana cap you need a mana/s of at least 43.4 to cast 1 Tax Collection with pentacast active. One tax collection = 25 tax collections of triple cast.

By the time you have 10,000 buildings it should be more or less impossible to not have enough mana to pull this off.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / List of base Merc builds

Originally posted by Edenlight:

No, I haven’t, I’m probably gonna try that next run, but with 1 less upgrade though, cause if I understood correctly, 33 seconds of downtime would represent 11 minutes of Angeline gone? So unless I misunderstood or messed up my calculation (entierly possible), I think it’s too dangerous. Thoughts?

Aye, it’s entirely possible for a bad overlap to lose you 660 seconds worth of progression. Generally, however, it shouldn’t ever be that bad.

Start with casting Brainwave down to 0 mana, assume absolute zero interaction.
69.6 seconds later: Cast Combo Strike.
69.6 seconds later: Cast Combo Strike.
69.6 seconds later: Cast Combo Strike.
69.6 seconds later: Cast Combo Strike.
69.6 seconds later: Cast Combo Strike.
69.6 seconds later: Cast Combo Strike.
69.6 seconds later: Cast Combo Strike.
69.6 seconds later: Cast Combo Strike.
At this point you have 43.2 seconds of Brainwave remaining and 0 mana, meaning you’ll end at 496.8 mana (or slightly more).
This means 9.22 seconds of downtime per combo, meaning a net gain of 208% per brainwave.

At that point the question is if two x20-x30 multipliers are worth 2/3 speed progression Angeline and ~1/4 speed progression Combo Strike.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / List of base Merc builds

Originally posted by Edenlight:

Evil Cialis

Note that it is probably not as good as the neutral one, but if like me you need diabolical evil and lunacy/fartstrike isn’t cuting it for you, you might want to try that.

Spells:
Combo Strike
Hellfire Blast

Bloodline: Angel

Requirement: 39 mana/s after setup (with r13, 3M clicks and 5 Ocd gems (5e57), I got 39.4)

Tier 1:
Strong currency
Evil Conquerors
Deadened Muscles
Mining Prodigies

Tier 2:
Demonic Presence
Cyclopean Strenght
Overgrowth
Blood Sacrifices

Tier 3:
Ancient Clicking Arts
Elven Luck (Building Jungle if no autoclicker)
Infernal Magic
Blade Dance

Have you considered running Brainwave? If you can slip in a production multiplier for even one of those mana upgrades (say, Building Jungle for ACA), you’ll get a higher Harlequin and an x35+ production multiplier, which will more than compensate for Brainwave vs. Hellfire Blast. If you swap both out for production multipliers this should compensate both for the slower combo strike, and since you’ll have at most a 33 second downtime if you get unlucky with Brainwave syncs at 11.5 mana/s it may be worth the sacrifice.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / List of base Merc builds

Originally posted by akram107:

guys i’ve been playing with labyrinth in neutral mercs until r11 how is pyrastrike better than the same build with labyrinths?

Without going to into too much detail into a difference I already demonstrated in the other thread, Labyrinth builds suffer from:

1: Pyrastrike gets Demon Bloodline in Tier 2, Labystrike is forced to double up on Faceless upgrades. This is both a smaller bonus and a loss of Harlequin.

2: Labystrike, by design, has to use Territorial Expanse in T1. Labyrinths at default production get around x8-x9 your total production, half the bonus from the worst Pyrastrike upgrade in the tier, and a third Faceless upgrade, which drops Harlequin even lower.

It’s the best non-Pyramid short run strike build (only around half pyramid production, which is much better than the alternatives), but generally getting more mileage out of assistant upgrades can’t compensate for three different production penalties.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / List of base Merc builds

Hard to compare, since Cialis assumes active play, growing only Combo Strike before taking active control while Expanse assumes constant growth on everything with no control.

Combo Strike
Lightning Strike

Goblin (1,1): Strong Currency
Dwarf (1,3): Mining Prodigies
Dwarf (1,1): Dwarven Ale
Angel (1,2): Angelic Determination

Titan (2,3): Cyclopean Strength
Demon (2,3): Demonic Presence
Faceless (2,1): Gold Synthesis
Druid (2,2): Earthly Bond

Dwarf (3,1): Battlehammers
Elves (3,3): Ancient Clicking Arts
Druid (3,3): Building Jungle
Drow (3,3): Blade Dance

Harlequin Bonus: 729% // 343%
Bloodline : Angel // Drow

Working from theoreticals here, the aim of Cialis is to hit 40 mana/s. Assuming 12.8 from 2e6 clicks, and R14 is 6.5 mana, +4 base, that’s 26.9 mana/s, and a need for 11.4 mana/s needed. 0.5 from GotH means Trade Lords to hit 40 mana/s has to be 10.9 mana. 100 casts at 3.6e6 is that 12.8 mana. 42.7 mana/s.

100 casts gives 7647% Strong Currency and 8208% Battlehammers. We’ll assume they won’t be doing much after their setup.

After this point we’ll assume these are more or less fixed. It will take 7.31 hours to get another 3.6e6 through assistants, a week gives 8.274e7.

Trackless Expanse meanwhile buggered around for a bit casting Lightning Strikes and generally setting up to a similar point, we’ll assume, to compensate for its lower base mana gain, that it doesn’t touch Combo Strike until Cialis has cast its 100 lightning strikes, that both builds start with Baseline 2k due to severe OCD on both sides, and that Cialis will come back at the end of the week without breaking Angelic Bloodline somehow, or significantly changing their building count.

So over a week at 40+ mana/s, Cialis casts 30,240 Combo Strikes. +100 Lightning Strikes is:

Angelic Determination: 5,777%
Combo Strike: 431,105%
Blade Dance: 129,332%
Strong Currency: ~7647%
Battlehammers: ~8208%
Angeline = 302400%
Mining Prodigies = x1 Duplicate.
Dwarven Ale = 2152% (Baseline 2k)
Cyclopean Strength = x1 Duplicate. Both sides are assumed to have equal HoLs and 37 assistants (Undead Heritage).
Gold Sythesis = x1 Duplicate. Both sides are assumed to have equal Alchemist Labs.
Demonic Presence = 23082 assumed buildings, 4,616.4%
Building Jungle = 2030 Pyramids = 3,552.5%

That’s a unique 247,745,517,258,739,717,155.18180326874, or x2.4775e20 Unique Production Multiplier, assuming Angelic Bloodline doesn’t conk out (I forgot Harlequin so I’ll include that in Expanse)

Meanwhile:

Because we assume Expanse works on mana first as well for the same 2500ish seconds, let’s assume it’s going to take a bit of time to ramp up. 11 base mana before multipliers becomes 20.8 after the first Lightning Strike, aka 24. Assuming mana is constant between orders of magnitude for simplicity, that’s 800/24 × 9 seconds for the next nine, 300 seconds. 9.8 from Trade Lords becomes 11.3, so 1.5 quicker. 800/25.7 × 90 = 2801 for 100 casts, for 23.8 base mana, for 27.4 mana/s after multipliers.

3100 seconds is around 10 minutes after my very loose ballpark for Cialis, so let’s assume that’s a wash and say this is the start point. After this point, it will be combo casting. 2700 mana for the combo to active is doable with Baseline 2k with 4 mana left over, and mana gain gives five Tax Collections and 52 mana at the close of the combo, so 3200 between cast cycles.

That’s 117 between combos, and 9 spells in that time.

117 * 900 = 105300 seconds for 1000 Lightning Strikes. That’s 29.25 hours gives Trade Lords 14.3 mana/s, 29.2 mana/s total, 900 Combo Strikes, 8200 spells.

Now since we won’t hit another order of magnitude, and we won’t get another Tax Collection in our simplified calculations, that’s 4269 more combos for the week.

That’s a total of 46621 spells, 5169 Combo Strikes, and 1.86e10 FCs.

Angelic Determination = 8146%
Strong Currency = 13,222%
Battlehammers = 15,048%
Combo Strike = 87,927%
Blade Dance = 26,378%
Drowline = 604,800%
Territorial Expanse = 37 assistants x50 x 0.79% = ~ x15.615. We’ll ignore extra buildings as a pain in the arse.
Overgrowth = (Assuming a 30k building prep build), 3053%.
Titan Obelisk = 4087.9% adjusted.
Building Jungle = 3629.5% based on 2074 baseline Labyrinths.

Harlequin = 4.43/8.29

= 964,083,808,583,525,120,515.56171265127 Unique production multiplier, or 9.64e20.

Now at the 1 week mark, Cialis: 2.4775e20 with 5891 max mana and 42.7 mana/s takes 3100 mana to start up, and 18 Tax Collections, for 560 seconds of production every 157 seconds.

Expanse’s 9.64e20 at the week mark gets 30.49 (I guess 30.4?) mana/s at this point, giving it another Tax Collection each automated combo for 3300 mana. That’s 200 seconds of production every 109 seconds. x1.44 frequency, so 288 effective seconds over 157. That means just about twice as many spells per combo, so:

tl;dr

After a week:

Cialis with no buying power = 4.955e+20
No extra Labyrinths Trackless Expanse = 9.64e20

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / List of base Merc builds

Originally posted by Magmardooom:
Originally posted by why_amihere:

Magmar, this is the key point both Kholai and I are worried about:

Originally posted by Kholai:

If and when my computer shuts down, I will cease growth except for Drow Bloodline. This is as an alternative to Cialis, which will cease all growth.

Not only that, but Angel Bloodline will completely reset to 0 if the computer restarts without me anywhere nearby, meaning the production phase that would be supposed to start when I got back would have to wait an extra day before I could make anything useful from the build.

Originally posted by Kholai:

1: Because Labyrinths both increase buildings worth nearly 100% of income and Building Jungle, the difference is around 0.4% of your income even at 4000 → 40001 labyrinths. Ultimately it doesn’t matter how long it takes between Labystrikes or not, every thirty minutes is +1800% income with Drowline, the further you fall “behind” the higher proportion of Labyrinths to clicks you’ll get. If even 10% of total overall clicks trigger Expanse, that’s 8 buildings an hour, 192 buildings a day, 1344 buildings in a week. Assuming 2k labyrinths to start, that’s x2.72 to your income from Expanse alone, likely higher.

Concerning the ‘enormous difference’, note that Territorial Expanse grows over time, and that after 1 week, the bonus to Labyrinths will ~double from Undead Heritage. x1851 times 0.79% is x14.623 times total income. 2.72 × 14.623 = x39.744 from a conservative estimate, not including the minor increase to Call to Arms, a comparative of a 21.6k building Demonic Presence.

Since Drow Bloodline x37s your income after the first hour, x865s in the first day, and x6049’s it in the week, along with everything else, it’s likely going to be more than four buildings a combo.

2: No, not with Drow Bloodline.

Hmmm… Then it does sound like a powerful build indeed. I’d like to try it if I wasn’t absolutely certain that I’d grey screen long before the week was over. I have yet to leave the game on for over 24 with angel or drow bloodlines without it grey screening. Maybe if the issue is fixed soon I’ll give this a shot.

Because of the nature of Drow Bloodline, if you do greyscreen, you can refresh without losing your multiplier, just don’t click to confirm your offline report or anything else and it shouldn’t have any impact on your progress (so long as grey screens still work “behind the scenes”, otherwise you’ll just lose spellcasting output.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / List of base Merc builds

1: Because Labyrinths both increase buildings worth nearly 100% of income and Building Jungle, the difference is around 0.4% of your income even at 4000 → 40001 labyrinths. Ultimately it doesn’t matter how long it takes between Labystrikes or not, every thirty minutes is +1800% income with Drowline, the further you fall “behind” the higher proportion of Labyrinths to clicks you’ll get. If even 10% of total overall clicks trigger Expanse, that’s 8 buildings an hour, 192 buildings a day, 1344 buildings in a week. Assuming 2k labyrinths to start, that’s x2.72 to your income from Expanse alone, likely higher.

Concerning the ‘enormous difference’, note that Territorial Expanse grows over time, and that after 1 week, the bonus to Labyrinths will ~double from Undead Heritage. x1851 times 0.79% is x14.623 times total income. 2.72 × 14.623 = x39.744 from a conservative estimate, not including the minor increase to Call to Arms, a comparative of a 21.6k building Demonic Presence.

Since Drow Bloodline x37s your income after the first hour, x865s in the first day, and x6049’s it in the week, along with everything else, it’s likely going to be more than four buildings a combo.

2: No, not with Drow Bloodline.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / List of base Merc builds

Originally posted by Magmardooom:

So are you both going to run this expanse thing when you are away? Does that imply your confidence in its superiority over cialis and other long-term builds? Or are you just going to test it?

I plan to start expanse with my machine online and running until/unless it cuts out at some point.

While online, it will continue to “purchase” my primary production building. This is a unique advantage over any non-expanse build since being AFK means not getting this form of escalation.

Its production will continue to increase over time via Lightning Strike (SC/BH), Combo Strike (BD), and Angelic Determination, as well as Drow Bloodline.

If and when my computer shuts down, I will cease growth except for Drow Bloodline. This is as an alternative to Cialis, which will cease all growth.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / Mercenary Build/Concept Thread

Originally posted by IanIanIan:

Overall. Try it yourself, are you getting x17?

Thought so. Yes, x17 to assistants and clicks doesn’t work out to a full x17 to total production, since at the beginning your proportion of Assistants to Building% is anywhere from 50/50 to 80/20. It’s a little tedious to work out the exact bonus, since after x17ing the proportion you’ll have anything from 850/50 to 1360/20, at which point any other boosts account for a different percentage of the exact ratio, but this will vary tremendously depending on reincarnation count, so we generally assume “more-or-less” parity with other types of upgrade for simplicity.

Honestly it’s a bit of a blind spot, but not one that can be overcome easily. Take Oversized Legends in a build that doesn’t otherwise feature a large number of assistants or assistant multipliers with 75% of total income being Assistants.

1800 × 1.144 = 2059%. 21.59 × 0.75 = 16.125.
2159 × 0.3% for Demon = 1.1683
2159 × 0.25% = x103 = 1.19714

So it’s actually x22.553 rather than x30.1962.

But if you skipped it in favour of a different one, and your build involved Swarm of Fairies the exact same thing would happen, your predicted boost would be 75% of what it should be in terms of absolute production. After that first upgrade your other click/assistant upgrades will be much closer to 100% efficiency, so after the first upgrade you can assume the others are at more or less face value, and vice versa. It’s only when you have only one boost that you should start considering if something else will be more effective (or an extra few lines of tedious maths to determine overall choices vs overall choices).

Generally the only thing you can do is to understand that any build dependent on assistant income will be worse than advertised based on the % of assistants to total production, and if you want to find out exactly you can check your own baseline before you start adding any click or assistant boosts to a build (exactly the same as you’d do with Elven Luck, in reverse).

Originally posted by Delauney:

I wish there were a thread with the builds in it and a separate one for discussion. It’s hard to filter through what is theorycrafting and what is viable, when math might as well be a foreign language to me. I borked R3. I wasn’t careful with my excavations, but I finally made it to the oath and started getting upgrades and then I panicked. My current “build” is scarcely worthy of the name. I’ll have approximately 4.5e35 gems after I abdicate. Edit: Apparently there IS a thread that’s dedicated to listing builds. I’m about to go sift through it, but if you have a quick answer with a build name, please let me know, and my first couple of questions apply.

So here are my questions:

1. Should I just tough it out and then reincarnate with a clean (excavation) slate?
2. Should I abdicate and use something that actually works?
3. Are there any updated pre-bloodline, post GG change, starter builds?

I don’t need anyone to show their work, I’d just like something to start with. I think I could’ve picked something with better synergy if I’d let my cat select everything. I don’t autoclick, I have the basic gift, and I’d like something I can let idle in another tab and then check in on periodically. I will give you my theoretical firstborn if you can help me. Hyperbole? Perhaps. Or maybe not.

1: Make one if you like. Even Base Builds has a lot of maths as we crank out optimised builds.
2: No excavations left? Pyrastrike. Go ahead and abdicate, it’s a pretty quick set up if you can afford Trade Lords straight off.
3: Most of the builds that use Titan Bloodline can also work without it, and will work great for you.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / List of base Merc builds

Originally posted by Audaces:

I’ve just hit 1 Nod gems and wanted to share the build I’ve used for it – it turned to be very effective (went from 300 Ocd to 1.2 Nod in 20h):

Range:: R7+ (haven’t tested beyond R11, but it should be fine)

Faction: Neutral

Spells: Lightning Strike, Diamond Pickaxe

T1: Strong Currency, Oversized Legends, Sylvan Treasure Frills, Mining Prodigies
T2: Cyclopean Strength, Demonic Presence, Overgrowth, Earthly Bond.
T3: Swarm of Fairies, Rainbow Link, Professional Assassins, Battlehammers.

Bloodline: Drow.

Harlequin bonus: 729

How to play: Excavate your first faction coins, buy mercenaries, get LS and put it immediately on autocast. Build whatever you can, wait for max mana, cast LS – if it hits Pyramids, activate all other spells. After 1 or 2 hours, build whatever you can, put all spells on autocast (contingency autocast is enough) and that’s basically it. Using Drow bloodline means you can’t build or check anything, but you don’t need to – anything you can build is less effective than building the bloodline bonus.

Overall this build is a short term (under 24h) build with high gem rewards. It doesn’t need preparation apart from casting LS in the beginning (I had about 130 royal exchanges before going idle), it doesn’t require an autoclicker, and some bonuses continue to grow over time (bloodline, Strong Currency, Battlehammers). Replacing Diamond Pickaxe/Swarm of Fairies with Combo Strike/Blade Dance might be more effective in the long run, but that’s not the point of this build.

1: Why are you using Rainbow Link and Swarm? Swarm’s a tiny bit better than Link, but you’re skipping a higher bonus with Building Jungle (assuming baseline, your bonus from Jungle to Pyramids will be easily 50% higher).

2: How is 24 hours short term? Short term games are ideally 10 minutes long, they definitely don’t require hours of setup.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / List of base Merc builds

Yeah, that’s exactly the build I have running right now. I ran the test myself this morning and determined Titan Obelisk was worth the pathetic Harlequin boost straight off with the buildings I could afford in my (admittedly rushed) set up already, even accounting for the 89.5% value of Obelisks. I’ll be gone for over a week, so I’ll probably break Drowdle and crank up the buildings some more before I go.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / So, you're stuck in Re2?

If you can get 1700 mana (10,000 buildings), try Contingent Casting: God Hand + Call to Arms + Diamond Pickaxe + Holy Light + (Planned is better) Tax Collection with less than 2100 mana set for contingency.

This works to get a full quadruple cast combo, and should net you multiple tax collections, each one getting twenty five times more production than just the triple cast. Well worth the sacrifice of 800 mana.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / Mercenary Build/Concept Thread

Originally posted by IanIanIan:
Originally posted by Kholai:
Originally posted by IanIanIan:

Just nitpicking Kholai and Diadem here, does Sylvan Treasure Frills still give x17? I could swear I remember taking it recently and not seeing as large of a bonus as I used to, I thought it was because of how elven bloodline had been reworked.

The math for that part of the game always confuses the shit out me. Click reward / click production bonus idk.

Yes and no.

There are five 1% of production upgrades for 5% total.

Sylvan Treasure Frills gives 80% to that, bringing your total up to 85% from 5%. 85/5 = 17.

If your gem bonus is significantly low, to the extent that the flat 1e10 reward increases are still mathematically significant, it would work out at below x17, because Sylvan Treasure Frills doesn’t change those flat bonuses.

Yeah I just went from ~8 Vg/sec to ~55 Vg/sec when buying this upgrade at the start of a merc run. Something is off since the most recent patch I think?

Are you looking at overall, or clicks/assistants only?

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / Zero Gem Gains?

I believe it’s the gem itself, if you hover over it it will tell you how much you need to earn, first, for your next gem, then for the next gem milestone. Until you earn that much, you gain nothing.

 
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Topic: Realm Grinder / What's the R15 perk?

Originally posted by Mustado:

Well according to “some people” evil is 3 orders of magnitude better than neutral, this spell is only 2 orders of magnitude so evil will still be better even post r15./s

While true in earlier incarnations, unfortunately Luck builds get significantly weaker each Reincarnation, since Assistants get stronger and games gets longer. The higher Excavations, building counts, max mana, and assistant bonuses get, the closer the two builds get together. Also note that neutral got two large buffs: Diamond Pickaxe recently got x2.7, and Buildings got x2 since you no longer miss out on the 24h neutrality bonus.

Just to cement figures here.

Baseline 1947 (for 2000 Strongholds) = 22,500 total buildings. 2117/2099/2088/2080/2072/2058/2043/2021/2000/1977/1947

2099 Inns vs 2000 Evil Fortresses = 21.99 / 31 = 0.7094
2088 Blacksmiths vs 2021 Necroplises = 21.88 / 25.25 = 0.8665
2058 Alchemist Labs vs 2043 Dark Temples = 31.87 / 52.075 = 0.612
Harlequin for Lucky Strikes (Pyramid Luck) is likely 512% vs 1000%. 6.12/11. = 0.5564
676.93% Heresiarchs off Slave Pen vs ~x2.5 mana/s. We can’t readily compare yet, so 1/7.76 = 0.1289
Hellfire Blast is x307.77. LS / HfB = 909.09…/307.77 = 2.954
x50 Gem Grinder / x11 Blood Frenzy = x4.55 – Gem Grinder is a multiplier, not an addition.

36.23% of evil production assuming identical output. x2.76 times output.

Total cost is 1000 + 400 + 900 (assuming “free” brainwave) versus 600 + 400 + 1000, so 2300 / 2000 = 1.15 more mana needed to combo, 92 seconds per with 25 mana/s vs 200 seconds at 10 mana/s (I may be lowballing mana here, don’t care) = Evil has ~0.46 the cast frequency, making it only 27% better, assuming Earthly Bond isn’t involved, which you barely manage at the base 1947 level (this brings up a few problems for a Lightning Strike build playing nicely with Brainwave, but ignore it for over time production).

If Earthly Bond does get involved, this is a minimum 2425.694% Overgrowth “for free” against picking Earthly Bond, putting it instantly x25 times ahead of an imaginary Bondage user.

Their combo is now 2500 + 1000 + 400 + 900 = 4800. 192 seconds per combo. 0.96 instead of 0.46, so the new spell will be better if it is more than x72.613875 times better than Brainwave.

At 15 Rs, RSpell is 171,750%, x1718.5 vs x8.5 Brainwave = x202, meaning Neutral Luck would work out superior to Evil Luck. x2.782 times better.

Meanwhile the Assistant strikes gives:

Tier 1 Upgrades
Goblin (1,1): Strong Currency About the same, unless you’re not spamming Excavations.
Dwarf (1,3): Mining Prodigies Same.
Elven (1,3): Sylvan Treasure Frills x17 vs 31 (Conquerors) = x0.55
Titan (1,3): Oversized Legends x27.625 (including the change to Cyclopean) vs 25.25 = 1.095

Druid (2,2): Earthly Bond vs 2425.694% Overgrowth = 0.0396
Demon (2,3): Demonic Presence = 1.0122
Titan (2,3): Cyclopean Strength Covered in the upgrades that alter it.
Faceless (2,1): Gold Synthesis 31.87 vs 52.075 = 0.612

Dwarf (3,1): Battlehammers About the same again.
Druid (3,3): Building Jungle – Negligible difference.
Fairy (3,3): Swarm of Fairies = 52 assistants. 71 = x3.74 // x3.7076 // x1.44 = x19.97 including everything. vs x19.912 Rainbow Link = x1.003, assuming Assistants are 100% of production at this point.
Drow (3,2): Professional Assassins assuming 120 per exchange = x25.31 vs Elven Luck, which, assuming Buildings as 20% of production by this point, is x450 = 0.0563%
Harlequin Bonus : 729% vs 1000% = 0.754
Demon Heritage: 112.3% higher.

0.55 × 1.095 × 0.0396 x 1.0122 × 0.612 × 1.003 x 0.0563 × 0.754 × 1.123 = 0.071% of the Luck Build’s base production. Diamond Pickaxe at 600 excavations would be x389.5, ~46 times better than Brainwave’s middle cast; bringing the total up to x0.437 if you ignore combo duration. 5,820 max mana means ~13 Tax Collections in a full combo, so x20.1 combo duration = x8.78 times.

Meanwhile RSpell would be x4.42 times better than Diamond Pickaxe and last longer, so 6 Tax Collections means DP builds get 2.01 times the duration, 19.31 times better than Brainfart.

Now I’ve fudged things in favour of Pyrastrikes here, and generally the earlier runs for Brainstrike etc will work out with far fewer buildings/excavations/mana and so on, but it’s clear that by the time RSpell becomes relevant, not only will Luck in general be outdone, Neutral assistant builds with Earthly Bond will be the only way to go.