Recent posts by Kholai on Kongregate

Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / goood strategys

Go to the wiki. Read the Beginner’s Guide. That is all.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / how to get valkyrie fast

Alternatively: Earn 16,000 gold by Mastering your first mission, Upgrade your Market to level 3, buy two Staves of the Holy Empire.

Start owning with Hobbits and never look back.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / After-Fight Comments

I’d personally just like a “thank you for the Exp and Gold” option, but I like this one too, might actually leave it on occasion.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / Questions? Ask here! ( game tips )

Originally posted by hijacobhi:

in the monster lab i swear some things you need to make another monster, are better than the one your creating, for example black dragon zero, is just as good as aeon? you trade BDZ damage for abit of health?

The wiki contains detailed information on all units, including stats not shown in the pop up, such as the fact that Aeon hits around seven times more each attack than the BDZ.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / Wiki Help #3

Cheers Gus, changes updated on the wiki.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / The Crystal Buyer's Guide

Originally posted by GalGhost:

hey kholai please tell me for quen succubus, power go goblins, ork bomber, black dragon zero, fafnir, great wyrm and aeon
Thanks!

I’m waiting to get Aeon before I rank everything new and finish this guide, but off hand: Lilith: 10/10, Great Wyrm 9.5/10, Fafnir and BDZ: 7/10 or so, Ork Bomber: 3/10, Power Goblins 5/10.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / Questions? Ask here! ( game tips )

Originally posted by Wsdragon:
Originally posted by zaktan78:
Originally posted by Wsdragon:

I tested without rage, and the witches do about 10-20 damage, while the succubi consistently deal more than 100.

Damage is calculated like this. Also, Succubi hit twice, and deal Burn status with each attack. Witches hit once and deal Shock status. If what you’re hitting has a stronger immunity to Shock than Burn, or a weakness to Burn, the results are logical.

If I were hitting a regular enemy, that would explain everything. But I’m hitting Popo, so I don’t think nor status immunities nor elemental modifiers nor status ailments have any effect, unless I’m mistaken. In this case, nor shock nor burn (the only difference between the attacks) would modify the damage.
Furthermore, the small red numbers displayed are the damage dealt with every single hit, so the double hit of the succubi is not a factor (again, if I’m not mistaken).
So, is giant Popo weak to burn or fire and/or resistant to shock or lightning or is there some other explanation?

Simple answer: Your witch has a lower Atk than Popo’s def. This means she deals scratch damage – 5% of her atk.
Your succubus has slightly more Atk and so is dealing approximately the difference between the two.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / element bonus screwed up?

Originally posted by Wsdragon:

How about “the math symbol is completely out of context and it could even be used not as a math symbol so it does not have any obvious reading at all?” (Oh, and i’ve got a degree in mathematics. Just saying.)
Sorry for feeding the trolls.
Anyway, what cleared the subject for me was the earth\thunder pair. Earth is immune to thunder, it’s basic video-game knowledge, so the chain goes that way. ;)

Then thank you for demonstrating that you can be slow and educated?

If it’s not greater than, then it’s pointing from one to the other. The idea that a “>” symbol can imply “Weaker Than” is ludicrous.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / Tactics for Noobs

….

http://epicwarsaga.wikia.com/wiki/Beginner%27s_Guide

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / Suggestion and Ideas

Originally posted by deathmasta:

i have noticed on the artlogic facebook that the 2 heros in progress are characters (or based on) characters from different games, well since we are on this topic i would really like to see heros from games like final fantasy and castlevania (if possible)

new item suggest: gun blade: stats:750hp/1200atk/300def Description: Sword from another dimension. [equipment] exp+L, gold+M, (if possible could this weapon, whenever equiped, increase the range of the attacks of our units, like the white tigers have a reach of like 10% of the battlefield when they attack, this weapon would increase that range to for e.g. 15% or 20%), wind+M, thunder+L Costs: (created in the blacksmith) 99 Light Saber Z, 20 Plasma Sword, and 10 Revolvers (this could be a drop for a new CoT or a new chapter if there will be any)

new item suggest: Ragnarok Zero: Stats:2500hp/3700atk/1500def Description: Sacred sword at full power. the icon for this could be like a blue ragnarok or something dark or firey, oh and it needs an aura, [equipment] elemental+XXXL (if possible, XXXL is 50%), Mana(full), Cost: (created in blacksmith) (if possible this weapon should be worth 5 items) 5 or 3 galaxy swords, 77 Ragnaroks, 99 demon stone, 99 angel stone, and 50 galaxy stones

The Monkey King is not a video game character, Khronos is from a game which Artlogic owns the rights to. They do not own the rights to either the Final Fantasy or Castlevania series.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / The EWS Guide for Dummies

Originally posted by be4fraid:

Can’t see chapter 5 after completing chapter 4. Maybe someone knows why?

Nope. Seems to be a recently introduced bug, hopefully they’ll be something fixing it soon.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / The EWS Guide for Dummies

Time+ increases the amount of time available on the mission clock counter.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / Dear Artlogic.

Originally posted by Trossoca:

There is earth,fire,wind and thunder hero.

Make a water hero please.

Sincerely, a dude that would obviously use a water hero <3

I strongly agree. I need a hero that I deal double damage to.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / Suggestion and Ideas

Originally posted by Vlax:
Originally posted by koce400:
Originally posted by koce400:

Make special missions that give a small ammount of crystal.The first prize will be 10crystal.Mastered 100%-20crystal, mastered 200%-30crystal, mastered 300%-50crystal.

Actually forget about that idea.Make prize crystals in every chapter’s bosses.The first prize will be 10crystal.Mastered 100%-20crystal, mastered 200%-30crystal, mastered 300%-50crystal.

You already receive crystals from bosses, from achievements.

I love how people ultimately suggest getting fewer crystals for themselves.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / [Guide] Math Strategies

Originally posted by gust4v3:

Awesome, awesome stuff, thanks Gus. Looks I’ll have to update the wiki when I’m not feeling so lazy.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / [Guide] Math Strategies

1) Name: Charming smile; EC: void; AM: 0.01; S: charm
– Looks about right, 16k Atk deals 156 damage to 1-1.
2) Name: Sword of judgement; EC: void; AM: 1; S: stun
– Definitely correct.
3) Name: Ice blast; EC: water; AM: 1.2; S: freeze
– Tested and correct for #1, incorrect for Ice Blaster II.
4) Name: Flame fist; EC: void; AM: 1; S: burn
– Does not match either Kentaro’s or Lily’s damage multiplier. Does the spell number match theirs?
5) Name: Poison cloud; EC: void; AM: 0.8; S: poison
– Checked and confirmed correct on all levels.
6) Name: Dragon roar; EC: void; AM: 0.6; S: none
– Confirmed.
7) Name: Meteor; EC: void; AM: 0.3; S: none
– Confirmed with Meteor III as well.
8) Name: Rain of Arrow; EC: void; AM: 1; S: stun
– Incorrect.
9) Name: Thunder shield; EC: thunder; AM: 0.4; S: shock
– Dead on.
10) Name: Fist; EC: void; EC: AM: 1.5; S: none
– I believe this is Giant Fist, and eyeballed it to be correct on 1-1.
11) Name: Thunder; EC: thunder; AM: 0.8; S: shock
- Confirmed correct.
12) Name: Tornado; EC: wind; AM: 0.2; S: none

– Correct.

Thanks for these.

The oddball ones are Fiery Fist and Rain of Arrow, both of which fire multiple missiles at fractional damage.

Ice Blaster II is missing (It’s not a 1.2 multiplier)
Volcanoz is missing. (Should be around 0.6 I think)
Giant Fist X is missing (depending on whether Fist = Giant Fist, that may be missing too).

It’s a slightly different thing, but the Heal spells are missing as well.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / [Guide] Math Strategies

Although if someone wishes to demonstrate this position mathematically, they’re welcome to do so, I’m not so much interested in proving any theorem as resolving the issue that the given one does not work when applied in a real system given the data provided. To this effect, the fact that multiplying Attack is converging on infinity eventually is not relevant to my concerns.

The best ratio must surely be one that actually works in-game at level 9,999, with the absolute maximum possible statistics available in-game, to handle as larger percentage of the opposition than another possible build. 1/2/0 does not accomplish this, and I’m not convinced there is one in practice (though with Ranged Attacks being what they are, full attack is as close to it as we can expect).

The fact that an attack power of 0.6 means that x Attack Power is Scratched by 0.6(x) Defence means that at that point defence is worth more_, because 0.6(x_) defence is as valuable as 0.95x.

It’s harder to demonstrate this relationship, because 50,000 Defence is either worth 5 (if your opponent has 6 Attack), 47500, if your opponent has 50,000 Attack, or the full 50,000 if they have more than that.

Bring in variable aptitudes for Defence, and 50,000 Defence could be worth 5,000 (10% aptitude), 14,500 (10% aptitude against an Aeon with 14,500 Attack), all the way up to 45,000 at 90% aptitude, or 900,000 with Stat Immune/Elemental Modifier.

Likewise, whilst health is only ever useful once, Defence is always useful at least once.

This is why CoT3 Popo with 12,000,000 Health and 3,000 Defence is easier to beat than he would be at 4,000,000 Health and 1,000,000 Defence against all opponents with less than 1,000,000 Attack, and this Health isn’t as valuable as Defence.


For the things that haven’t been discovered yet…

1: Most importantly, I believe we need to recheck the Critical Damage calculation. It’s dealing a minimum of 0.15 x, not 1.65 x, and if it were dealing 3.15 x before Def, then 8791 modified damage should translate to crits over Scratch on both targets.

Eyeballing it I’d guess 0.15 + ~1.5 instead of 1.65 + 1.5.

2: We don’t actually “know” the attack modifier on spells. I’ve calculated Tornado at 0.2, Thunder Shield and Fiery Fist at 0.4, Thunder 3 at 0.8 and so on, but it would be good to have the information for the wiki, though for something like Tornado we don’t even know how many times it hits.

3: The attack power for the twelve new units as of last version. I’ve calculated Reapers to be 0.8, Fafnir and the ranged titans to 0.6 along with guessing the others, but code confirmation is always helpful.

4: Just remembered – how the heck does Lily’s Charm work? Is it keyed off another status effect or is it its own unique thing?

Cheers.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / [Guide] Math Strategies

Unrelated to our ongoing discussion, would you mind checking the Damage mechanics?

Whilst checking damage for Thunder Shield versus Thunder III, I was using Shield against 10-1.
My Atk: 6587, 0.4 AP = ~2634 damage.
Since its defence is 4733, this means I’m dealing the minimal 131-132 damage per Thunder Shield hit.

So far so good, but if the expected damage from a crit is 1.65 Damage + [1.5 Damage – Def] then the minimum Damage that comes out the end should be 1.65x 2634. As it is, Crits from the Shield are actually ~400.

Going against Reaper in 9-2, 3380 Def, so the regular damage is the same (132) but the crits were 1533, 1108, 1090, 1602, 1129, 1295…

So… yeah, any ideas? I’m leaning towards the idea that crits now only have a 15% minimum with a ~1.5 multiplier as my starting estimate.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / [Guide] Math Strategies

- See by this perspective: if you have a 5,000,000/100/100 unit, how many attack your enemy will need to one-hit kill? See, your enemy will need to have about 4,760,000 attack to one-hit kill your unit. On the other hand, having 100/100/5,000,000, your enemy only will need about 2000 attack to one-hit kill.

True, but if you have 5,000,000 stat points to throw around, then if you put 1,000,000 into Defence and 4,000,000 into Health, then against ~4,760,000 attack you’re ultimately the same as if you had 5,000,000 Health. Meanwhile how do the two fare against 1,000,000 Attack? 2,000,000 Attack? 3,000,000 Attack? Instead, if you have 2,500,000 Health and Def what then?

Against anything with less than 1,000,000 attack, having 1,000,000 Defence multiplies Health by 20. Against 2,000,000 attack, it’s effectively multiplied its worth by two. So if they have invested less than twice as many points into Attack as you have into Defence, you’re getting at least double the mileage out of your health points.

If you have 2,500,000/200/2,500,000 then you’ve got the same five million health you would have if you put it all into health. Except you also have 50,000,000 health against anyone with less Attack than you have in Defence.

- And the point is: instead use your skill points to (try to) null the enemy attack, why not try to delay your unit death increasing the HP? As you said, HP has the higher apt and Def the lowest, so that means 1 skill point invested in HP will be higher (not necessarily better, of course) than 1 skill point invested in Def.

If you invest 1,000 stats and get 1,000 HP, compared to 500 Def.
If that 500 Defence means that your Def is > 1/2 their HP then you’re doubling the value of all the Health points you have. If you have 2,000 Health and 500 Def, then your health will be effectively 4,000 against someone who’s invested 1,000 or less into Attack (pretending that Attack is a 1:1 exchange, which as I’ll go into below is not the case).

If you invested that into Health instead, your health is effectively 3,000 against everyone. You’ve got all 1,000 points, but you haven’t got the conditional 1,000 points. This has good points – You can now take a hit from someone who invested 2500 into Attack, and bad points – You cannot survive four hits from someone who has 1,000 in Attack.

- Multipliers (attack power, elements, immunities): it doesn’t matter, irrelevant.

Then this is the fatal flaw in your calculations.

1: Unit A will play only against Unit A.

Unless Unit A is void, your simulation has now effectively doubled unit A’s attack stat. This is inaccurate.

2: Because a unit will always play against the same unit, the attack power and immunities are mathematically redundant.

This also couldn’t be further from the truth, because Defence is almost a binary state of utility.

Why? Because Attack Power and Elemental Modifier are applied before damage is calculated, not after.

In your simulation, if you have A (2500/3000/1000) facing B (1000/3000/2000) then A will win – 3000 * 1.05 -2000 = 1050, instant kill.

In reality however, if you include Like vs. Like elemental, or a 0.5 Attack Power then B wins, despite having lower stats. 3000 * 0.5 = 1500. 1500 * 1.05 – 2000 = 75. 1500 * 1.05 – 1000 = 575. B wins in five hits.

To not modify any of the existing formulae, I’ve duplicated a page into your Simple Simulator to incorporate Attack Power only. Check the results:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjLI06iDaPmMdDdTNEdaUUxqUlhPSmlZdWFzUlJmbUE#gid=2

I’ve set it for 9,999 1:2:0 against 0:1:1 with Draws (same # of hits) noted.

The only one where A consistently wins against B is Dark Knights (which is why I keep saying they’re so great).

Whilst you might dismiss Elemental Modifiers for simplicity (assuming all equal relationships), you cannot dismiss Attack Power. The fact that the attack stat is consistently reduced prior to the attack calculation for most units in the game and expect to get accurate results; attack power is a direct modifier to base stats and aptitudes that must be accounted for.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / New Updated Tiers List

Originally posted by zaktan78:

Nice lists :). Anyway, a suggestion for the artlogic team would be to remove the “burn” status from Flame Devil’s attacks. This instantly makes him one of the best choices to kill the Wyrm. Might still not make him a “Ultimate Fire Titan” but surely more useful.

Not a bad idea, it’s certainly not helping him at that low Attack Power.

List now complete with Hero units.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / New Updated Tiers List

Intentional.

Originally posted by Kholai:

For certain notable units I’ll note them in italics where Element+ can shift them up tiers, and their basic state in non-italics. In this case assume something like Six Invisible Cloaks, Five Demon Swords et cetera.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / New Updated Tiers List

Updated unit tiers to account for the recent changes.

Since it’s hard to compare drastically different units to one another, this will be divided into three lists: Titans, Heroes, and regular, non-Titan units.

For certain notable units I’ll note them in italics where Element+ can shift them up tiers, and their basic state in non-italics. In this case assume something like Six Invisible Cloaks, Five Demon Swords et cetera.


Regular Units

Tiers are determined based on:

Tier 1: Good for most missions, against most units, in most situations.

Tier 2: Good in a particular role, viable for end game use, if not the best choice for all situations.

Tier 3: Perform a valuable and versatile role in a line-up, not really suitable for most end-game use or are subsumed by other units that perform the role even better.

Tier 4: Viable early game unit, but subsumed by later units, or unable to keep up for later game challenges except for highly specific uses.

Tier 5: Units that are quickly outclassed by other units, giving them a very short term value.

Tier 6: Units that do not fulfil a viable role regardless of opposition. Typically this infers that they are not functioning as intended.

Tier 1

Pegasus Knight, Angel Knight, Ninja Assassin, Dragon Rider, Dark Knight

Tier 2

Dragon Rider, Dark Knight, Mermaids, Lamia, Masked Brawler, Dragon Warrior, Warg Rider, White Tiger, Phantom Beast,

Tier 3

Hobbits, Elite Hobbits, Catapult, Templar Knight, Dark Warrior, Cursed Pirate, Ninja Assassin, Goblin, Gorilla, Fire Succubi, War Tank, Holy Matriarch, Witch,

Tier 4

Centaur Lancer, Centaur Archer, Fairy, Fire Succubi, Boomerang Man, Clown, Beast Rider, Puppy Dragon, Valkyrie, War Tank, Elder Wizard, Mystic, Harpy, Mad Bull, Ork Bomber, Holy Matriarch, Lava Golem, Skeleton Archer, Turdzilla, Troll, Totem, Witch, Phantom Knight, Yeti

Tier 5

Dwarf Sharp Shooter, Blood Sucker Vampire, Elf Protector, Anu-ki Warrior, Shark Men, Elf Ranger, Elite Dwarf, Elite Knight, Failed Experiment Creature

Tier 6

Stone Guardian, Terror Bajaj


Titan Units

Since Titans are nowhere near so diverse, it’s easier to tier them.

Tier 1

Twin Diablos, Twin Salamander, Fafnir, Great Wyrm, Reaper

The best of the best.
Twin Diablos with Element+ are almost literally unstoppable and have one of the best Defs in the game combined with a 0.7 Attack Modifier.
Twin Salamander are more easily taken down, but with such huge stat boosts available, they outdamage almost anything.
Fafnir, with boosting isn’t quite as brutal as the above two, but since it shocks (one of the most useful abilities) and has a decent range that’s a serious bonus.
Great Wyrm is simply epic, a ranged titan with triple hits. Burn immunity, so it’s Strong against almost every useful fire unit ever, and it’s weakness against Freeze just doesn’t really come up considering all of three units have it, all of which take full damage from the Wyrm.
Reaper would be tier 2 if it weren’t for four things: Fire units are everywhere, they’re the cheapest titan in the game, they’re self-healing monstrosities…. And you get two of them. Burn weakness isn’t actually that bad, it just means they take 50% damage from Fire Units instead of 25% (and take 200% damage from Centaur Archers. Oh no.)

Tier 2

Sea Serpent, Twin Diablos, Twin Salamander, Fafnir, Aeon, Black Dragon Zero, Flame Devil

Sea Serpent gains a huge advantage by being ranged, but compared to the Great Wyrm it’s harder to hit with, has a bigger blindspot in its attack animation, and isn’t borderline immune to its elemental weakness. Still a very solid Tier 2 though.
Aeon suffers from the Void disadvantage. Titans more than any normal unit benefit from Element+; even Leviathan and Great Wyrm. It would be lower, but its Melee through Magic attack animation is pretty badass.
Like Aeon, BDZ suffers for being Void. It’s not as good, but it’s still just about a tier 2. For both of these however, you’re not going to keep them once you have some decent element+ gear, a single Thunder Cloak and Fafnir pretty much beats both of ‘em.
Flame Devil, with double the stats, is basically equal to Twin Salamander without double the stats. His ultimate problems – a 0.3 attack power and vulnerability to both freeze and stun – will stop him from ever really having the same “oomph” as a regular titan. He’s great against weenies though.

Tier 3

Earth Dragon, Fire Dragon, Arch Angel

Nothing wrong with these guys, but they just don’t compare to the glory of the Twins.
Arch Angel: Void, the other major penalty to the Arch Angel is that he’s pretty much the slowest Titan except for Diablos, only Diablos is the juggernaut bish and can’t be stopped ever, and can be pumped with Element+. Arch Angels totally can be shock-locked and attack once in a blue moon.

Tier 4
Flame Devil

>:(


Heroes

As with regular units, the higher the tier, the more situations they are suitable/optimal for. Since there aren’t many heroes, I’ll explain most of them.

Tier 1 – The best choice for the majority of missions, arena and CoTs.

Frei The Sky Princess – The ultimate tactical hero, Frei’s almost complete reliance on units and utter dominance with unit summoning and support means she’s pretty much the best hero for any time when units are the answer – which is almost always. Only the CoT really gives her trouble.
Queen Succubus – Lilith, when appropriately boosted, is pretty much able to kill anything in the game in one or two Fiery Fists (twenty hits at 0.4 power). This everything does indeed include Caves of Trials missions, the one major area where Frei has trouble.
Since there’s no Water hero and even the fire heroes usually aren’t fire heroes, Boosted Lily’s usually two Fiery fists away from killing anything and everything.
Sir Kholai – Kholai is an absolute monster when properly boosted thanks to his aptitude and spells. Thunder III is 15 hits at 0.8 power (about 6 of which hit any particular target if you aim well), with a range of over half the screen, whilst Thunder Shield is close range (unlike Fiery Fist), but hits multiple targets at once with 25 hits at 0.4 power.
Since Earth is such a weak element generally, Kholai is at a major advantage in most settings, and Angel Knights are a viable counter to earth units most anywhere else. He’s not much for Arena farming though.
Steel Armoured Popo – The “weakest” tier 1, SAP is simply a solid hero in all respects without any frilly tricks. He has a great damage spell, he has Rage, he has Heal and he has Shield. SAP is good for missions with Shadow Goblins, and sometimes beats missions faster with Ice Blast II than Frei can hope to do with a rapidfire army of units. Good all around at almost everything you could want.

Tier 2 – “Specialist”. Incredible in a particular field.

The Mighty GhatotKacha – Whilst Invincibility is always useful, it’s not always needed, which is the main issue that stops Ghato from being tier 1. He’s not great at arena farming, he’s not great for regular missions. He is, however, freaking awesome at Cave of Trials and any other “super hard” mission. Nobody can beat CoTs as easily as Ghato and his invincible army.

Khobbit the Spartan – The king of low level farming, with enough Atk, Khobbit is the only hero in the game capable of a seven second win, something he can pull off all the way up to 6-2 or so. Khobbit’s also the king of cheesy tricks – any slow moving group of melee units can pretty well be bypassed by Khobbit, whilst he can even use his triple hit combo to get into that sweet spot just on top and to the right of the enemy hero, meaning they attack to the right, missing his troops. Combined with Rage, Heal and Shield, he’s solid everywhere else and should have no trouble staying out of harm’s way, but you have Steel Popo for that.

Tier 3 – Not ideal, but suitable for a decent number of situations or missions with decent aptitudes.

Power Go Goblin – Transfer is always awesome, but no Rage means that the gobbos just plain can’t compete with Frei for utility. Thunder Shield can be optimised with Hero+, but ultimately Element+ is easier to come by. Meanwhile Heal 3 is nice, but 4 mana is pretty awkward to accumulate during combat. Overall Gobtron is decent at most everything thanks to Transfer, but doesn’t really have the offensive oomph.
Popo the Epic Dwarf – 85% Defensive Aptitude, Tornado and Rage. Regular Popo is still one of the better heroes in the game.
Queen Succubus – Without boosts and at lower levels, Lilith’s low defence is a serious flaw, but she’s still a healing rager, with Kiss to break up enemy formations to boot.
Sir George Lancelot – Ultimately he’s a slightly more offensive, slightly less defensive Popo that moves faster. Lancelot is pretty much capable of handling all the same types of missions as Popo is, with slight style differences.

Tier 4 – Pretty much “Low aptitudes and/or meh skills, but Rage”, making them suitable for most low level quests and basic arena farming. Lutea and Omni Knight sneak in by virtue of their decent aptitudes and spells, though their lack of rage makes them fairly low in the tier.

Rhino the Executor, Grullborg Grimtooth, Lutea the Summoner, Omni Knight, Oni the Brute

Tier 5 – No rage, not optimal for general play.

Jasmine Timberlake, Joey the Skull-Splitter, Robo Jack Mk. II, Viegraff the Red

Tier 6 – Dragonzord

Dragonzord

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / [Guide] Math Strategies

So…. Multipliers.

The most obvious and immediate is Aptitude.

Taking an average from all non-hero units, the “average” aptitude is:

75/44/33

If you strip out starter units (anything with nothing better than +25) you get:

100/55/42

So roughly speaking, you get 100% of your Health stat, 55% of your Attack stat, and 42% of your def stat.

Next comes another obvious multiplier: Elements and immunities.

In every case in the above example, it was assumed to be a void element target or two unrelated targets. This is rarely the case, and whilst you should expect a unit to win against its elemental weakness, that’s not the case against equal elemental strength.

So against the same element, A2 loses the use of 29,998 stat points.

This means even with full attack investment any attacker is dealing scratch damage against 29,998 defence.

In the case of same elemental multiplier, this makes C one of the most viable builds – Against D2 it receives ~1100 damage a hit, and deals ~4,000 damage a hit. Against D3 it deals 666 damage a hit (16 hits), and only dies after 24 hits.

Against their immunity, they deal a fifth as much damage.

The more points you have invested into attack, the more you suffer.

Third multiplier is Attack Power. Approximately a tenth of units have an actual 1.0 attack power, if that. For the most popular ones, we have about 0.6.

If you account for a 0.6 Attack Power in Mr Average, the 100/55/42 guy, this means you have an effective 33 aptitude and Attack is the hardest to pump meaningfully. If you account for this average, then investing 5000 into Def (2,100) is enough to induce scratch damage from someone who has invested 6,300 into Attack. That gives you a profit of 1,300 stat points over 5,000.

Finally, you have items. As indicated, Def can only really be added by items in small amounts, health can be added in great quantities, and with the ultimate Galaxy Sword x6, for the standard 100/100/100 guy in the above post this makes base stats of 17,200/20,800/14,800, a huge difference.

With this all in mind, a 1/2/0 pattern is not necessarily the right choice. You can compensate for a large proportion of that with equipment, but you cannot really compensate for a low defence.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / [Guide] Math Strategies

The problem with calculating ratios on infinite variables is that this does not apply in a closed system, or account for attack modifiers.

For the sake of calculation, assume that the unit in question has 100 in all aptitudes, and Base Stats of 1/1/1.

At level 9,999 they have 10,000 Health, 10,000 Attack, 10,000 Defence before stats.

You have, at most, 49.995 stats to assign. Assume that energy and action are irrelevant.

This means the maximum possible stat is 59,995.

Possible stat loadouts:
A: 1:0:0
B: 1:1:0
C: 1:1:1
D: 2:1:0

A may have:

1: 59,995/10,000/10,000
2: 10,000/59,995/10,000
3: 10,000/10,000/59,995

B may have:

1: 34,997/34,998/10,000
2: 10,000/34,998/34,997
3: 34,997/10,000/34,998

C has:

26,665/26,665/26,665

D may have:

1: 43,330/26,665/10,000
2: 26,665/43,330/10,000
3: 10,000/43,330/26,665
4: 10,000/26,665/43,330
5: 26,665/10,000/43,330
6: 43,330/10,000/26,665

0 Atk isn’t really viable, so let’s look at the top 2/3 of each.

To begin, ignoring modifiers:

Looking at A2 we can see that the absolute highest minimum damage that can be dealt is ~3000 – four hits to kill any target with no points invested into Health. However A2 has the disadvantage that they can be one-shotted in turn by B1, B2, C, D1, D2, D3 and D4, and their units can be killed instantly by any critical hit, so it’s pretty much rocket tag.

Comparatively, B1 against B2 and B3 deals minimum damage: ~1750. Twenty hits to kill B3, six hits to kill B2. Conversely, it only takes two hits to kill another B1. Defence multiplies the value of health. B2 > B1.

Against C, B1 deals 10,000 damage a hit – three hits to kill. C only takes two hits to kill B1 since it hits for 17998 a hit. B1 < C
Against C, B2 deals 10,000 damage a hit – the same three hits, but C only deals 1333 damage a hit – eight hits to kill B2. Twenty-six to beat B3 – but nobody’s saying 0 Atk was very viable. B2 > C

Against D1, B1 kills in two hits, and dies in two hits. B1 = D1. Draw.
B2: Still kills in two hits. Dies in eight hits. B2 > D1.
Against D2, it’s Rocket Tag. B2 and B1 both kill D2 in one hit, D2 kills B1 and B2 in one hit. B1 = D2 & B2 = D2. Draw.
D3: B1 kills and dies in one hit, same for B2. B1 = D3 & B2 = D3. Draw.
D4: B1 deals minimal damage. D4 kills B1 in two hits. B1 < D4
D4 deals minimal damage against B2 as well, so B2’s minimum damage wins the day. B2 > D4

C against D1: C hits for ~18,000, 3 hits to kill. D1 retaliates for 1,333 – ~20 hits to kill. C > D1
C against D2: C hits for ~18,000, two hits to kill. D2 retaliates for 18,832 – two hits to kill. C = D2 / Draw.
C against D3: C hits for 1,333, eight hits to kill. D3 is still a two hits to kill. C < D3.
C against D4: Both hit each other for 1,333, C wins from having more health. C > D4

D1 against D2: Two hits and it dies, two hits before it kills. D1 = D2. Draw.
D1 against D3: Two hits and it dies, still, but eight hits to kill. D1 < D3.
D1 against D4: Three hits and it dies, still eight hits to kill. D1 < D4
D2 against D3: One hit kill on both sides. D2 = D3.
D2 against D4: Five hits to kill D4, dies in two hits. D2 < D4.
D3 against D4: D3 wins; higher scratch damage. D3 > D4.

A lot of draws and trade-offs. We enter a metagame situation. If everyone has a D2 build then the smart player gets a D4 build. If D4 builds become popular, smart players go for B2 builds for a net advantage in this situation. There is no build that isn’t beaten by another of these builds except one (B2 beats or draws against every other viable build listed. Its weakness? 1:1:2 – more health comes into play when both participants have enough Def to set the opposition’s damage to 0.05)

Defence is what makes the difference, not health. Defence exists to multiply the value of health by up to 20x its standard value. In your example, you have a 100/100/5,000,000, and you’re hitting on the exact same thing: Enough Defence effectively multiplies Health by 20. There’s a reason why Defence is consistently the lowest aptitude, and health the highest – Defence is potentially worth more than either.

As a trade-off, you’re quite correct – surplus Defence is wasted, it’s only ever a 20x bonus to health, but up to that point it’s one of the biggest deciding factors.

I assume Kong’s about at its legible post limit, so I’ll start in a new post about multipliers.

 
Flag Post

Topic: Epic War Saga / So I heard you like Kholai?

Originally posted by nazimui:

How do you manage to get a hero after your name?

Primarily for my work making the wiki, I requested a cameo everyone could enjoy and sent a quick rough design draught. The talented devs did the rest.