Recent posts by Kholai on Kongregate

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Topic: Peacefree Tactical Warfare / Poll: Longer or Shorter Acts?

For Normal Maps, how long do you want them to be?

2. 1-2 hours of gameplay.
3. 3-4 hours of gameplay.

Boss Maps

For Boss Maps, how long do you want them to be?

2. 1-2 hours of gameplay.
3. 3-4 hours of gameplay.

I certainly wouldn’t mind a few either side for variety, (sometimes part of the fun is building up a base that can actually survive the endless hordes forever), but these would be the general sweet spot for me.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Card Design

Operative restocking bomb is a perfect addition, I’ll slap that in there.

Interesting to see a lot of these mechanics actually seem to be turning up in the upcoming herd changes.

A possible replacement
Underlings
Imposter
Image: A man staring at himself in the mirror. Except his reflection is holding a knife behind his back.
Rare
Cost: 6/5/4
Health: 1
Abilities: Whenever foe plays a card, 20%: Produce 1 skull. Cannot be targeted. Destroy when killed.

Cannot be targeted would prevent the use of any targeted card or effect, such as skulls, from being used against the Imposter. Non-targeted effects, such as “Attack” could still work, however.

Another card intended to force the opponent to choose between play and inactivity, an Imposter is awkward to deal with, even without protection cards on the field, and combined with an Assassin would offer a brutal suppression tactic on an opposing deck.

Originally posted by Silencian:

More random Metris ‘screw you’ cards sounds horrible. :/

Are there any non-“screw you” cards in Metris?

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Card Design

You’re right, I originally had it operating a universal coordinate effect, which is a potentially incredible effect that I think would have justified the cost. It should probably only be 5/4/3 cost instead.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Card Design

#3: Metris

At least I won’t be making anything particularly overpowered for these guys.

Core principles:

Espionage

Generate Skulls.
Enemy Card Control.
Resource Steal.
Resource Denial.

Underlings

Allies: 7
Generate Skulls, Damage, Cards.
Intercept.
Steal Resource.
Leverage skull generation into damage.
Card control – poison/recover allies.
Ally control – Seduce effect.

That’s 1 Espionage, and 5 Underlings to cover.

So….

Espionage

Mismanagement
Image: Wide-eyed accountant surrounded by scattered papers, clutching his head and laughing maniacally.
Scarce
Cost: 6/5/4
Abilities: For the next 3 turns: Whenever foe plays a card, 20%: Foe loses 1 resource. Destroy after use.

Resource denial, economic uncertainty, and a horribly unfair effect. Even one trigger a turn can cripple a starting economy, harsh the cycling mojo, and make Shrine of Rebirth users sad.

Underlings

Desperado
Image: Clean shaven gentleman sporting a rapier, a plumed hat, and a highwayman’s mask. Holding a chandelier for presumably nefarious purposes as people surge up a staircase towards him.
Scarce
Cost: 5/4/3
Health: 1
Abilities: On turn: Attack. If attacked, 50%: Cancel attack, attack source. Destroy when killed.

Riposte! Desperado is a pest, if nothing else. A Desperado on the field presents your opponent with a choice to ignore 1 damage a turn (and they add up), or spend resources to kill it (risking potentially much more damage as a result). Very Metris, though I’d personally love a riposting Vespitole duellist.

False Messenger
Image: Smug guy in a messenger uniform carrying a messenger satchel whilst looking out of an alley at the real messenger being surrounded by thugs.
Scarce
Cost: 5/4/3
Health: 1
Abilities: On turn: Foe loses 1 resource. Whenever foe discards a card, 10%: Draw that card. Destroy when killed.

The more your opponent plays, the more you get. Another card intended to put pressure on an opponent whilst driving your own economy.

Counterfeiter
Image: Guy holding a tiara and smiling, with the original tiara on a cushion next to him.
Scarce
Cost: 7/6/5
Health: 1
Abilities: When opponent buys a card, 10%: Gain a copy. Destroy when killed.

Yes, a Forger, forging stuff whilst boosting your economy. Moving on.

Body Double
Image: Man standing, orating to a crowd of peasants as his double watches from the shadows.
Common
Cost: 2/1/0
Health: 1
Abilities: Intercepts attacks. When attacked: Heal hero. Destroy when killed.

Basically a free floating apple, and some cheap, expendable fodder to confound your opponent.

Operative
Image: Scarred figure in some rafters hanging a satchel bomb as a meeting goes on below.
Cost: 6/5/4
Health: 2
Abilities: On play: Restock a bomb. On turn: Reduce random bomb timer by 1. Destroy when killed.

Yes, the name needs work. Operative could easily be given a counterpart for other effects, but hey, mad bombers need love. With two Ops on the field, any single bomb would detonate the turn after it was laid, which is pretty lethal.

Anyways, that’s about all I have on the top of my head, now to procrastinate on ever joining the official forums to transpose them.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Card Design

Vespitole have 10 allies have 1 health, and only 6 have 2 or more health (1 each for 3, 4 and 5).
Daramek are much sturdier, with only 8 allies with 1 health, and 10 allies with 2 or more health.
Metris have 4 allies with 1 health, 3 with over 1 health.
Endazu have 3 allies with 1 health, 4 with over 1 health (counting Conjurations as allies).

For Vespitole, yes, 2 health is beefy. Vespitole have the lowest health allies and the most protective cards (7 vs 1, 3 and 3).

Also note the card is currently priced to combine a Bureaucraft with a Wealthy Patron (aka 1 health each), whilst an Inquisitor is priced to combine a Militia with a Courtesan +2 Gold for the lethality of the combination. By raw design logic, the Privateer at current is underpriced, but discounted for the inherently limited nature of its ability. To increase its health to 3 would arguably increase its cost, at which point you’re paying the same amount for a card which will win the game for you as a card which will delay your opponent and accelerate your economy.

Supply Contract: You are forgetting the most important component of Vespitole, namely odds.

If you play Spice Route once, you generate 1 food and 1 card. And returns to deck.

If you play Supply Contract, it generates 0 food and 1 card. It then gives -1 gold and +2 food for three turns, during which it is not in the deck, and is not generating cards.

So talking odds, with a coin in your pocket, you have a 1/10 chance of drawing the only Spice Route in your deck with nothing but coins on your first draw. A 1/9 chance on your second, and a 1/8 chance on your third. That’s 9/10 × 8/9 × 7/8 chance of not drawing it. (7/10, or a 30% chance of drawing it).
With a second non-coin in your deck, that’s 9/11 × 8/10 × 7/9 chance of not drawing either (28/55, or just about 50% chance of drawing one of the two cards). When you play the non-coin, you have a second, mathematically significant chance of drawing the second card (with 3 coins and a card, that’s another 1/8 chance of getting that other non-coin).
With a thrd, that’s 9/12 × 8/11 × 7/10 chance of not drawing one (21/55, a 38% chance of not drawing a cycling card on your turn). When you play with 3 coins and a card (and that’s ignoring 2 cards and 2 coins for simplicity) you have a 2/9 chance of drawing one of the other two cards.

For Vespitole instants, the more cards you buy, the more your cards are worth, the faster your deck accelerates.

Moving on: Grim Shroud – What about a 20% counter chance? With 4 average damage reflected over 20 health, that’s nowhere near Frame quality (which protects allies as well as preventing the damage), and it’s pretty much entirely controllable by the attacking hero, making it more of a deterrent and a stall than a hard counter like the other damage reflects.

Rat Totem – I’m borderline certain that the core mechanic is balanceable, though pricing may need tweaking.
Remember that Shrine of Rebirth + Sacrificial Lamb gives Mogesh infinite damage potential already, and Shrine has many, many other benefits for the same cost. Meanwhile, note that multiple rat totems wouldn’t usefully stack for Mogesh and wouldn’t generate magic. They’d supply infinite fodder, not infinite magic. I do accept they’d be better than Boar Fetish for him.

What about +1 gold to match Shrine of Rebirth’s cost?

Scapestone – I thought this might concern some folks. Is irremovable, “free” damage cancellation a balanceable proposition?
It’s almost the same price as the shepherd for half the cancellation and no restock.
It’s mediocre against burst damage.

We have Golem for a chargeable version of this, and whilst it’s irremovable.

We have Rampart which is a cycleable version for 4 that could be replayed every single turn it’s destroyed and the Palisade which is cheaper for 2 fewer gold, does the guaranteed nature of the stone even favourably compare to either of those?

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Card Design

Alright, moving onto…

Daramek

Pricing and balancing may need help, since it’s a lot harder to cost out Daramek thanks to their focus on card combinations, and balancing a % chance effect is awkward.

Once more, core principles, we’ll ignore the two “full” segments.

Slaves

Leverage allies into damage.
Allies: 10.
Generate Gold, Random, Resource Denial, and damage.
Card Control – Ally, Rite.
Counter Attack
Ally Multiplier

Idols
Card multiplier, Damage multiplier, Magic multiplier/“Convert” Magic into Gold, Damage, Generate Random.

That’s 1 spot to fill in Slaves, 7 to fill in Idols.

Slaves

Ritualist
Image: Tattoo’d lass sitting in a bare circle on the dirt, surrounded by mountains of bones of all different species.
Rare.
Cost: 10/9/8
Health: 2
Abilities: Whenever an ally is sacrificed, gain 1 random resource.

The Ritualist makes a Sacrificial Lamb from every ally. Well worth the entry cost, and with two health, she’ll stick around through most sacrifices to give that bonus time and again. Even as the most expensive Slave, I’d be surprised if she didn’t end up in a wide number of sacrifice oriented decks.

Idols

Rat Totem
Image: A statue of a stylised stone rat with a small fire burning under its belly, with live rats crawling from its hollow eyes and ears.
Uncommon
Cost: 7/6/5
Ability: Feed hero magic: Create a Rat.

Rat: 1 health ally, destroy when discarded, destroy when killed, no abilities.

Truly a terrifying card in its own right. Rats fuel sacrifices, stampedes, and Mogesh, whilst otherwise just generally getting in the way.

Grim Shroud
Image: A mystic wearing a ratty fur cloak, still sporting ears and tails.
Cost: 6/5/4
Ability: When hero is attacked, 25% attack source.

Oh Tazin, I hate you. This effect escalates very well, combining with Serpent’s Altar for a brutally effective counter.

Vile Offering
Image: You don’t want to know. In a giant stone bowl, surrounded by flies.
Cost: 6/5/4
Ability: For each card you play: 10% Attack.

A Rite of Combat in Shrine form. Brutal long term escalation without the early and explosive payoff.

Scapestone
Image: A weathered rock with a creepy horned visage painted on it. It’s covered in scratches and surrounded by broken arrows and weapons.
Cost: 8/7/6
Ability: Cancel 1 Attack/turn.

Micro wall on an irremovable source.

Damned if I can think up any more idols right now. Brainstorming a bit, we’ve got a Rite of Brood effect, similar to Liet’s ability, though scaled down a tad. We’ve got potential for an ointment style mechanic, on turn for each “Animal Type” X% chance generate 1 resource, and maybe an ongoing shrine Resource Denial effect – Every card your Foe plays, ~10% Foe loses 1 resource.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Card Design

Originally posted by timeracers:

I think privateer should have 1 more heart but can’t be fed unless the enemy has resources. I like Supply contract but a cost more. Conscription wouldn’t be useful because militia cost the same as other allies, but if it changes coins to militia without the draw a card part then it would be useful.

Privateer: I’m not sure 3 health would be necessary, even with the no-feed-without-embargo (or injury, of course) restriction. 2 health is pretty beefy for Vespitole, especially a resource depleting Vespitole like Privateer, which actively works against the opponent spiking it.

Supply Contract: Its initial, maxed, purchase price is 7 gold over three turns, with an ongoing cost, every use, of 3 gold. Is there a particular reason it should be more expensive in your opinion?

Conscription: Wouldn’t be useful? I can think of several situations where I’d want nothing more.

Imagine that your economy is built up, you’ve got 20 gold sitting around, a field of Vintners, Serfs, and Wealthy Patrons. Too many Wealthy Patrons in fact, you have a bunch of gold now.

This is often an issue with Vespitole; once your economy amps up, you’ve got more gold than you know what to do with, and a bunch of allies that are basically doing nothing.

Conscription changes the content of your inventory, and it effectively changes your bank. Instead of restocking more, useless, Patrons and Serfs, you’re restocking useful Militia.

Imagine you’ve just used your economy to purchase a card that you’d rather your enemy not be able to kill. Say, a Privateer, or your hero. Conscription: You’ve replaced your Courtesan with an intercepting Militia that your opponent now has to kill to get at your protected target. Cycle a few times and you’ve got a defending army (just don’t accidentally conscript your Inquisitor).

It’s not a power card, but it is a cheap and versatile one, something Vespitole are sorely lacking in. You could use it to create a Serf>Militia army for Spy Network decks, as a potentially “useless” card for Metris to steal (or to convert your Warship into a Militia the moment you see them draw Seduce…), or when you have a bunch of food sitting around and a few enemy allies you need rid of.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Suggest balance changes

Originally posted by timeracers:

An extra heart won’t make a difference if you don’t damage the ally. So I was proposing to add a heart but increase the cost by 1, and make it trigger before other cards. You never did say anything about it seducing before other cards activate (Like brute or barrel bomb).

Units activate in the order played. Since she still produces skulls if she activates after your assassin, she’s still contributing. I see nothing wrong with making a seduce effect (one of the most powerful abilities in the game) actually require some tactical consideration, or at least require you not to already be in an advantageous board position (which, if you’re killing their allies with your own each turn, is certainly the case).

An extra heart is simply excessive. What has more than one heart? Assassins – Trained killers. Brutes – Trained bruisers. Mercenary, Inquisitor, and up – Highly trained, aggressive operatives… A barmaid is somehow beefier than a Courtesan? As I said before, there are multiple ways to protect your allies with Metris, and those ways apply equally to every ally.

Originally posted by Zabotinski:

Apothecary – A great ability (since the update), unusable.
I’m not discussing her poison resotcking, but rather her ally ability – It’s something that adds great depth to Metris strategies, or atleast could. At the moment, she can only defend Bodyguards – for any other ally she would simply be targeted first.

There could be 2 possible solutions:
1. Buff her up, make her healthier, have your opponent choose between having a 50% chance to let my Brute come back for 3 damage, or pay 5-6 damage for it’s definite diminish.
2. Let her have a ‘hide’ ability, which should work like the opposite of intercepting – She can only be targeted last.

Whilst I like #2 as a mechanic, I’m not sure how extensive this disadvantage is, particularly at her price. Personally if I had one skull and a choice between a Cutpurse and an Apothecary, I’d pick the former. Likewise with 3 skulls and a Brute/Apothecary choice. Apothecary’s 50% effect combined with Metris’ unreliable restock makes her an easy target to ignore in favour of more annoying, and obvious, targets, especially if there’s more than one of her on the field.

Even then, if you have fewer than X skulls, are you going to waste one on an Apothecary that may simply cycle back onto the field, or are you going to save up skulls to try and kill both, or just the brute? What if they have a Sabotage in the bank? She puts tactical pressure on the enemy.

At worst, Apothecary is a 1 HP Bodyguard for 1 Gold. I’d argue that’s actually pretty decent.

Also I’m fairly sure attack cards will just target anything in any order, so she can potentially recoup the lot after a malediction.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Card Design

Glad to see such positive feedback.

Originally posted by Basileg:

The devs really need to hear about this. Try posting on the official forums on the War of Omens website and these ideas might actually get into the game.

Maybe when I’ve filled in a few blanks on the other colours I may. Otherwise anyone, feel free to port them over in the meantime.

Originally posted by Zabotinski:

It’s been an interesting read. I especially like Privateer – Vespitole’s only “reasorce doublers” are Holy Wrath and Inquisistor, both doubling damage. It would be nice (and make sense) to have more of that, not particulary in the damage field.

Blockade might be too expensive. Most of the time this card won’t live to it’s full potential, I think 1 gold less would make more sense.

Yeah, I wasn’t sure about Blockade pricing. It’s potentially the most devastating denial card in the game, but with Spy Network you could probably just kill them quite quickly.

Originally posted by Gameguy602:

I’m not entirely sure about the usefulness of Judgment. Anyone who can get a significant effect from it are probably on the verge of going infinite anyway.

Yeah, it’s not supposed to be a super card. Generally if you’re playing it, it would probably be 1-4 damage, 1-4 healing (you can’t discard the card you just played). That’s actually a decently powerful effect – 2:1 efficiency on your coins, with decent healing efficiency. I’d argue it’s not a bad card by any means when you have a solid economy built up, since you’d be sitting on 4 damage + healing at the end of each cycle.

Originally posted by wbr17:

I liked supply contract.

I liked privateer as well but i don’t no if its fit to vespitole, would be better to steal 1 resource and turn it to gold, in the way you put it win 1 gold even if your opponent has no resource.

How would Conscription choose between vintner, wealth patron and courtesean?

Privateer, thematically speaking, is doing exactly that. If it were handled the same way as Bureaucrat (can’t feed if the enemy has no resources), then that would ensure that behaviour, though that’s a balancing issue (and Feed: Gold and Feed: Embargo are both very much a Vespitole mechanics).

Conscription would randomly select, much as Attack Weakest would.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Suggest balance changes

Why, exactly, are you talking about Bounty and allies in context of Serpent altar, which is entirely unrelatable? Again, gold does not equal damage, and different factions pay more or less for different resources.

Altar + Mogesh sacrifice of a cow = 1.25 damage from a single altar in one turn. 3 Gold, 1 damage. The rest just happens to be a huge amount of gravy, it is very unlikely that you will not gain full benefit from the altar rapidly and easily, and it certainly is not ineffective.

Tavern Wench, like any well defended Metris ally, can be all but untouchable if prepared right, and a surprising number decks do actually have trouble with board control.

Secondly, “Allies in your game deck” is hardly exclusive, since many decks do have allies, and the Tavern Wench in a no ally scenario is still a 1 Skull / turn generator, making her a permanent Recon, and the Assassin’s second best friend.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Card Design

What can I say? I was bored so I figured I’d play fill in the gaps.

To start, core principles:

Vespitole

Generate: Produce.
Leverage: Use an existing resource to create another, whether # of allies, # of enemies, or amount of a particular resource.
Convert: Turn an existing resource into another. Food, unless otherwise noted.
Card Control: Effect specifically dedicated to controlling or manipulating your card and bank draws.

Power
Generate all resources, primarily Skull and Resource Denial.
Leverage Skulls into Gold & Allies into Skulls.
Convert Gold into Damage.
Allies: 3
Generate/Convert into Skull and Resource Denial.

Prosperity
Generate Food and Gold
Leverage Food into Gold.
Allies: 4
Intercept.
Generate Food and Gold. Convert into Gold.

Faith
Generate magic, Leverage Allies into Gold and Magic, Magic and Enemy Allies into damage. Card control. Ally multiplier. Heal Allies.
Allies: 2
Generate all resources, Convert Magic.

War: Generate damage, attack denial.
Allies: 8: Intercept, Generate Damage, and Leverage damage. Ally multiplier.

Minor change: Inquisitor arguably belongs in the Power tab. He converts Skulls, and has nothing to do with Magic, so for mechanical purposes, I’ve popped him into Power in the above considerations.

That leaves 2 slots to fill in Power and Prosperity, 1 in War and Faith.

Power

Privateer
Image: Cool pirate ship I assume.
Rare.
Cost: 13/12/11
Health: 2
Abilities: On Turn/Feed: +1 Gold, Foe loses 1 resource. On Play: Draw a card.

Piracy is a big theme for Vespitole, but isn’t covered at all. Privateer isn’t a game ender like Inquisitor, but it’s still potentially brutal, converting its opponent’s loss into your gain.

Blockade
Image: Vast army arrayed outside a castle engaging in siege warfare.
Scarce
Cost: 11/10/9
Abilities: For each ally, foe loses 1 resource. Draw a card.

Another resource denial card, bringing it up to 4 Resource Denial cards compared to 5 Power cards.

Priced between Tithe/Spy Network and Liturgy, since Bureaucrat is priced the same as a Supplicant, whilst Embargo is priced the same as a Wealthy Patron/Courtly Intrigue.

Prosperity

Industry
Image: Smug noble looking at a hard pressed peasant doing all the work.
Uncommon
Cost: 6/5/4
Abilities: Activate random ally. Draw a card.

Junior version of Benediction and Marshal. Potentially great, usually decent. For a resource hero, it’s potentially a second resource generator of that type by targetting your hero. Priced to be 2 gold cheaper than a Marshall, given its one off, cheaper effect.

Supply Contract
Image: Two merchant guys shaking hands on a pier.
Scarce.
Cost: 6/5/4
Abilities: Draw a card. For three turns, lose 1 gold and gain 2 food.

Rather than go the Leverage Ally route, an “irremovable” permanent in the same vein as loan accelerates food production in exchange for gold.
For concerns of potency, note that Trade Company gives 2 food for free when drawn, and contributes to cycling, whilst Supply Contract costs 3 gold per use and cannot be accelerated, unlike the Vintner.

Faith
Judgement
Image: Holyfolk praying in a circle in front of a burning church.
Uncommon
Cost: 8/7/6
Abilities: Discard your hand. For each card discarded this way, heal hero and attack. Draw a card.

With so many cards being dedicated to storing up your hand for Vespitole, a card fuelled by dumping your coins (or unwanted non-coins) plays into the card manipulation of Faith-type cards and the holy flavour of Ysadora. Priced to be a gold cheaper than bounty, since it’s a much smaller, but more controllable, effect. This is the same price as Lead the Charge, but has a much greater operating cost to maintain.

War
Conscription
Image: Some old guy pointing out of the card like a Vespitolean “We need you!” poster.
Common
Cost: 5/4/3
Abilities: Weakest non-Militia ally becomes a Militia. Draw a card.

A utility card that would actually allow a Vespitole deck to shift gears. Conscription is cheap, since it does nothing on its own, but has a definite use, since it can be used to change an established economy into a military, or upgrade a Serf squadron at a bargain price once it’s got going.

Next up, probably Daramek when I’m feeling bored again.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Suggest balance changes

Serpent Altar: Invalid assertion. Gold does not equal damage. The Altar gives a 25% bonus to all skulls received, and a major boost to Mogesh, Boar Token, and Rites. It also stacks with itself.

The only wonky part about the Serpent Altar is that it produces sourceless damage.

Tavern Wench: The only balancing aspect of the Tavern Wench is that she does not, by default, activate on drop. Metris has Misdirect, Bodyguard and Frame, it is not difficult to protect the Tavern Wench, and reliable, permanent, skull generation and a card that heavily impacts on your opponent’s playstyle is far from weak for Metris.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Idea

Originally posted by kanzakill:

My idea is that for each card in deck, the player gets 2 more initial health points if it’s completely not upgraded, 1 if it’s been upgraded once.

This falls down when a player is including three of the same card in their deck, gaining a bonus in health and a significant bonus in reliability (three misinformations: +3 HP?)

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Leper Abilities Inconsistent?

Originally posted by Flint_A:

Here’s my opposition: More things working differently is good.

The way you want it, Lepers would work almost the same way as Frame and Bombs would work exactly the same way as any other attack card. Would it be worse, mechanically, on a position of fairness? I’m not sure. It’s a very small situation and I don’t think it would break things. It might be more fair, it might be less fair. Probably wouldn’t change much.

But it would be more boring. The whole point of this game is that the three factions play VASTLY differently, with only a few things in common between them.(And a few special cards that work like other factions.) Now, that is a risk, because balancing three different things is a lot more difficult than balancing three very similar things. But that’s the devs’ problem, and they seem to be doing a good job. Assuming it can be done though, more difference = more strategy.

Now, am I advocating that every single card should work in different and complicated ways so as to maximize strategy? Of course not, that wouldn’t be player friendly at all. But small details such as this that you have to remember and think around give players a little challenge and give an advantage to attentive players over those who are randomly throwing cards at the screen. If there was nothing to think about, the guy with the strongest cards would win 90% of the time. That is not the case in MtG, but it IS the case in a lot of online card games, such as the popular Hearthstone. It’s also not the case here. Okay, if one deck is full of rare coins that is a huge advantage, but other than that a smart player with an average deck has a decent chance against a dumb player with a good deck.

The current situation IS CONSISTENT. Inconsistency would be either something working randomly, or something being an exception for no defensible reason. We can easily define the rules as they are now. Some cards attack themselves, some cards give YOU the ability to attack. If the card attacks itself but it cannot be attacked back, it isn’t. You can’t say “But the player put the bomb, the retaliation should be to the player!” because the player also put the Brute or the War Rats or the whatever, should all those attacks go back to the player as well? What you want isn’t consistency, it’s uniformity. I’m not saying that is bad. I’m just saying it’s not simply inherently good. There are cases where more uniformity balances things, and certainly the game would be unplayable with NO uniformity. But there are also cases where a little break from uniformity makes things more interesting, and I feel this is one of those cases.

So you seem to be asking not “How does this work?” but rather “Why does it work the way it does?” and to that my answer is “Because it’s more thought-provoking and fun that way.” You might disagree. Different people enjoy different things. But unless the majority dislikes it(I’m pretty sure that’s not the case) or it causes a huge imbalance in the game(that is definitely not the case, Metris is powerful, but certainly not because their bombs bypass Lepers) there is no reason to change it just for simplicity’s sake.

1: The way I want it, Lepers will retaliate all damage to the damage source, just as I do now.

2: Bombs would continue to work fundamentally differently to other attack cards, as no other card is on a timer.

3: There is no additional entertainment value in a tiny number of cards behaving inconsistently with all other damage cards.

4: There is, equally, no strategy added or detracted by this inconsistency. One does not place bombs in one’s sideboard just in case of Lepers, nor Lepers hoping to intercept potential bombs.

So… Consistency: Something being done in the same way. Inconsistency is not merely doing something differently each time, it is doing a specific subsection differently.

Therefore constistently: All other non-ally card damage originates from the player, all ally card damage originates from the ally.

The reasoning behind this is simple; the hero is an entity, and allies are entities. Things with a life total are entities. Malediction is not an entity, Boar Fetish is not an entity, Rites are not entities. When a Rat attacks, it is the Rat attacking. When an unholy ritual is induced to turn gold into murder, it’s the hero attacking. When it’s not got a heart on it, then it’s not an entity to attack or otherwise, it’s something that the hero is doing or using to attack with.

The hero is detonating explosive devices, the hero is calling down thunder from the clouds, the hero is leading the charge… And, in case you want to try “but the hero isn’t present to detonate bombs”, it’s the hero that’s collecting their own Bounty. The fact that thematically they are sending an army with the promise of gold doesn’t divorce them from being the originator of every single attack.

Now I’m certain we do disagree that arbitrary and pointless advantages to a particular colour are thought provoking and fun, but I’m not sure it’s even a valid argument. Wouldn’t it be more interesting and strategic if Malediction and Holy Wrath didn’t provoke lepers? Because they come from the Vespitole god? Wouldn’t it be more interesting and strategic if Lepers only actually countered living flesh allies, and couldn’t be misdirected or blocked? It’s a value statement without mechanical value. Wouldn’t it be interesting and strategic if blue wasn’t the only colour capable of countering itsef?

But you are indeed quite right, as stated above, the majority are conservative, aren’t concerned with game balance or interested in solid game design principles, and would be arguing in the opposite direction if the situation were reversed.

This is, however, irrelevant. A solid, considered approach to consistency means that if a counterattack mechnanic can included in other cards without having to deal with a potential imbalance later, the actual work required to alter it is minimal, and the reasons against it are flimsy at best. There is little to no reason not to change it for simplicity’s sake beyond indolence.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Ysadora Change - Discussion

Different but buffed.

Old Ysa: 1 Food = 1 Attack.
New Ysa: 1 Skull = 0.75 Health.

A skull is a targettable attack, which makes it vastly superior (demonstrably; compare the price of Courtly Intrigue to Lead the Charge). With this change alone, 0.25 health would match the “price difference” between a skull and an attack, the only difference is that you’ll be producing skulls, rather than apples.

Instantly, that’s an improvement.

1: Skulls are easier to produce than food. Courtesan: Convert food into skulls. Spy Network: Instantly generate 1+Allies skulls. The best food producer is Trade Company for +2, and Vintner at 1/turn. Point to Neo-Ysa.
2: Skulls are inherently more useful than food: Skulls win games and provides card advantage, Food must be converted into something useful. Point to Neo-Ysa.
3: Food is more useful than skulls for allies: Another point to Neo-Ysa, with no need to force apples into her ample digestive tract, she may now use other, better, allies more effectively without wasting her own potential.

Skulls and Food both have gold producers, so that’s a wash.
Magic works for both of them, except Neo-Ysa uses it better. Again, targetted kill + 0.75 health versus untargetted attack at +1 health.

Moving outside of simple resource generation, we have something that Neo-Ysa benefits from even more, namely direct attack cards.

Old: Attacks and no heal? 100% benefit.
New: Attacks and 0.75 health? 175% benefit.

Lead the Charge: It’s still mediocre, since for a gold more you’re Balling, but hey, it is marginally better for Ysa.

Bounty: Turn all gold into 0.75 health as well as 1 damage per? BountYsa eats gold.

Malediction: Gain 0.75 health per enemy? MalYsa eats enemies.

Holy Wrath: Gain 0.75 health per magic you own. Then use it and get even more.

Allies: You don’t need to eat to be useful, feed your allies without feeling like you’re using a useless hero. Heck, even Inquisitors give Neo-Ysa 75% of her food as health once she cashes in on the skulls.

Merchant Guild: You don’t need to eat to be useful, cash in on a million golds without feeling like you’re wasting kill-time.

Military allies: Neo-Ysa: Eh, you can if you want. You have spare food. Old-Ysa: MY FOOD! MINE! OM NOM NOM.

There are two, and only two, downsides:

Marshal and Benediction: Advantage to Old Ysa! She attacks, new Ysa doesn’t.
Tribute: New: Gain 2.5 Health, targetted attack x2. Old: Gain 2 Health, attack x2, targetted attack x1. This of course doesn’t account for any allies converting the food, which puts it back into Neo-Ysa’s court.

Neo-Ysa has massively improved utility for almost every card in the game, at the cost of actually needing to use non-food cards. That’s a clear net gain in power.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / upgrading uncommons

Originally posted by Chrisstk:

From the stats I’ve seen, the distribution from the packs is pretty much something like:
70% – lowest rarity
25% – 2nd lowest rarity
5% – the other rarities combined.
(meaning that e.g for silver packs: 70% uncommon, 25% scarce, 5% rare + epic).

Therefore you would get on average roughly 0,75 uncommons per 300 silver spent on 3 oak packs, versus roughly 0,7 uncommons per 300 silver spent on one silver pack.

Obviously the samples are rather small and might be biased (e.g: people might rather post stats when they think they have especially good or bad luck), but I’m certain that it is nowhere near obvious, that silver is better for upgrading uncommons. (Even though it kind of should be. But whatever :D)

This is correct, assuming the given starting figures are right:

A 25% chance of drawing a particular rarity means that you have a 75% x 75% x 75% chance of not drawing that rarity.

That’s:
42.2% chance of not drawing an uncommon from all three packs. (So it’s more likely to get at least one uncommon per draw for a silver pack, but…)
42.2% chance of drawing exactly one uncommon from all three packs.
14.1% chance of drawing 2 uncommons.
1.6% chance of drawing 3 uncommons.

So per 300 Gold there’s an expected average yield of 0.75 uncommons versus 0.7 if 70% is correct. If it’s 75%, 20%, 5%, then silver is the better option at an expected 0.6 vs 0.7 cards per 300g.

Arguably if you don’t care about Exp, Silver packs are better overall since there’s a large chance of getting a non-exp giving card, but in the unlikely scenario of having all but uncommons maxed, Oak has an advantage over time.

Incidentally, Silver has an expected average yield of 1 Scarce per 1000 Gold at 70% chances, and 0.8 at 75%, so it’s better for scarces either way.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Leper Abilities Inconsistent?

@Kikix – Thank you for that sterling argument of “changing things is too hard and might cause problems”.

@BlazingRagnarok – I read your post, I merely absolutely disagreed with the core principle you posited; no card should be mechanically skewed based on flavour. Flavour is skin, mechanics are bone. Without skin, it’s ugly, without bone, it’s a floppy mess on the floor.

I’m not sure where I attempted to prove your opinion wrong, I do tend to conflate multiple responses to multiple posters, so allow me to lodge the same request directly at yourself: justify your entrenchment.

1: Clearly Leprosy is not restricted to any flavour whatsoever that one might identify as leprosy, hence it damages things that operate by an exclusively “long distance never even got involved” weaponry, is stopped by walls, and is somehow “misdirected” and the disease is directed towards another target by “framing” them for the attack.
2: Flavour is unnecessary to ensure unique behaviour with bombs and poisons in general, because they are already flavourful, and unique, in execution. For poisons, the same issue applies as for leprosy – the fact that they are breaking down solid walls of stone implies an immediate and necessary abstraction. Which I hope we all agree is not a bad thing. For Rites and spells in general, how exactly do these differ from a magical altar in the first place, even from a flavour perspective?

Flavour, therefore, is not a valid reason, because then you’re picking and choosing where to apply flavour to justify current inconsistencies in the mechanics.

3: Lepers, from a mechanical perspective, are intended to perform a role as a blocker card, much like a very limited version of Misdirect, working best against direct attacks (whether ally based or from a direct damage card).
4: Bombs are a direct damage card. So suggesting that they “were not intended to work against bombs” is questionable at best.

So, without flavour as an argument, there is one, and only one, issue:

Seven cards have an inconsistency in behaviour for no reason.

Yes, it’s “unfair”, as though that were a major issue (though ideally I would hope we can all agree that fairness is a reasonably goal in a competitive game in general). But generally my concern is that it is inconsistent for no reason.

So far I’ve had “Because the devs might somehow break their own game by changing well established code that clearly works from myriad other cards at their disposal”, “because it’s a lot of work to change a few lines of code”, and “because Lepers can infect ocean-going vessels and can be transmitted through lightning bolts”.

If it helps, consider our positions reversed:

Lepers counter everything consistently.

Why would you argue the game be amended to give bombs, poison, and Serpent Altars special treatment against the two direct counter-attacking cards in the game?

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Leper Abilities Inconsistent?

Yes, like MtG, the game should be balanced on stringent mechanical grounds. Flavour is not a sound means by which to base a game. Giving Metris an advantage because “BOMBS ARE TASTY” is not only a poor argument, it is entirely arbitrary. It neither significantly enhances flavour nor makes Metris play any differently whatsoever, because this is the only card currently affected except for an Epic hero.

Xion: I’m arguing that the game handles non-ally permanents inconsistently, and should be consistent as a core design principle. In fact, I’m fairly sure I’ve repeated this multiple times now.

Lob a grenade? Warship: Leprosy! Catapults: Leprosy! ZEUSBOLT FROM THE SKY: Leprosy. Everything except seven cards, for seven, terrible, reasons, comes from the hero. Rites, fetishes, holy armageddon.

But come, justify yourself. Why is it important to make bombs special little snowflakes? Is “deal damage after a timer” not different enough for you? Despite being utterly unique?
How about poisons? Is “Deal damage directly to the hero every turn” somehow not different enough for you despite, again, being utterly unique?
Why, in your opinion, do these gain anything over having an unjustifiable advantage over a two cards, whilst being handled fine by other blue cards?

The majority oppose change. Siding with the majority makes you conservative, not correct.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Leper Abilities Inconsistent?

The “METRIS CAN’T REUSE CARDS” horse is so far beyond dead even the Daramek don’t want it. Metris not (always) getting to reuse a card is wholly irrelevant in this case.

And yes, Kikix, I’ve approached this from the beginning that an inconsistency with lepers is due to an inconsistency with non-ally damage cards. Fix one, fix the other.

Originally posted by Zabotinski:

If you ask me, a weird, yet consistent measure, would be Serpent Altar. If it can be triggered (such as with rites), it’s a hero attack. If it cannot (such as with bombs), it isn’t a hero attack.

This may seem obvious, but I think it solves the problem at hand.

If the problem at hand is that a small subsection of cards are arbitrarily being given different behaviour, then determining a cause behind that behaviour I would argue merely identifies the problem, rather than solving it.

Every single non-permanent non-ally damage dealing card: Source: Hero.
Bantling Crown: Source: Hero.
Boar Totem: Source: Hero.
Rites (which are “permanent” non-ally damage dealing cards): Source Hero.

Overall difference between a bomb and Lead the Charge? Both deal their damage the moment they leave play, so the only real difference

Every single Ally card that attacks: Source: Ally.

Serpent Altar: Source: I assume Altar. Concerning triggering, “Attack with hero” is a definite trigger, a percentage proc doesn’t “altar” that.
Bombs: Source: Bomb.
Poisons: Source: Poison.

So we have seven cards, six of which are Metris, out of 22 non-ally based damage cards, (+10 attacking allies too, ignoring Stampedes) which cannot be countered.

Justify why Metris* should gain an additional, unwarranted minor advantage over Daramek (and Gretta decks, I suppose, at least until other counter cards are introduced). If there is no other reason than “just because”, why defend the status quo rather than simply agreeing it should be consistent and always come from the hero unless it’s an ally card?

  • And, technically, Serpent’s Altar decks, but considering Bombs are a Metris staple and Altars are a sometimes food, meh.
 
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Topic: War of Omens / Spacebar to End Turn

Hold C, hold LMB, drag cursor, changes camera angle.

Less Gimmicky, and more usefully, scroll your Middle Mouse button to undo the game’s automatic “Zoom out until you can’t see anything”.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Leper Abilities Inconsistent?

Originally posted by XionUnborn01:

The Rite isn’t attacking though, the hero is. The rite simply lets the hero attack for every card.

Actually that’s rather my point.

Rite lasts 1+ turns. It attacks (via the hero), it deals damage, leper counterattacks the hero.
Bomb triggers. It attacks (directly), it deals damage, leper does not counterattack the hero.

Yes, it’s minor, yes, it’s inconsistent. Either all permanents that aren’t allies should consistently originate from the hero (my preference), or none of them should.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Leper Abilities Inconsistent?

Originally posted by kikix12:

How do you want Lepers to attack a bomb that not only doesn’t have life (since it’s not an ally) but does not even exist anymore? It’s not inconsistent. At least, not where bombs come into question. It can only attack the source. It does not attack anything else but the source. It can’t attack a source that doesn’t exist or can’t be attacked.

So a magical Rite of Combat, which launches fireballs from the ether, is somehow less nebulous and unassailable than a fireball generated from exploding gunpowder? Because the Rite certainly doesn’t have life, and certainly doesn’t bypass lepers.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Leper Abilities Inconsistent?

Overall I’d say non-ally based damage was mildly inconsistent; with a single use card, “Attack” is always a hero unless otherwise stated, with a permanent it comes from this nebulous and immortal source of power. I can only assume because unremovable damage sources aren’t good enough on their own.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / AI Flaw

The AI has problems seeing Arson as an attack ability. I’ve sat for multiple turns on ~3 health and few to no resources, whilst my Metris opponent sat on an Arson in the bank, because I didn’t have enough resources to make it “worth using”.

 
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Topic: War of Omens / Who do you hate?

Originally posted by itztaytay:

My bomb deck does that Dan, lots of bombs with strata/coord, and honestly strata is nice and all but it’s never been op for me, and I’ve never seen anyone being able to get a constant lockout like that… how would you even get all those stratagems in a row? x3 +cp? that’s a huge amount of resources hogged just to extend turns which unless you have some on turn effect i just making you lose more resources, overall I don’t really think it’s overpowered, it’s just rng that lets you chain it a ton and rng is the driving force of this game, if you chained 2 courtly intrigues turn 2 into 20 skulls would it be considered op? (Granted that takes a lot more rng but still, I think you get my point)

I think you miss the point that Strategem is extremely powerful without chaining.

Metris has two major resources. 1: Gold. 2: The Bank.

More than any other faction, Metris depends on its bank. This is what limits its late game, where gold increases, but Metris is bound to 1 Bank restock a turn, so restock cards give Metris the resource it needs most, at the time when, without Strategem, it is typically at its weakest.

Strategem gives gold. It restocks the bank. It gives another chance to draw whatever cards you stole. It can, like everything, be recovered into your deck with clever planning. It damages your opponent, it multiplies everything. The fact that it is a boring fun-killer, and gives a skill-free autowin every now and then means little – every faction has a lucky autowin now and then. Being a Benediction/Synod combo with “Draw Three Cards” attached is already amazing. Turn a manageable 2 damage/turn from poison into a six damage spike with a lucky draw?

This is what I was saying above. On its own, Strategem is a decent card for Metris. Pay 1 gold, restock your bank. But it’s absolutely trivial for a human player to make a situation where Strategem is “Deal 4 damage, Draw 3 cards, Trigger all allies, lower timer on all bombs by 1.”. You can’t judge a card like this in isolation, you must consider its ability to combine with other cards (failure to do so presumably being why “double the value of all skulls received” is half the price of “deal 2 damage a turn”).