Recent posts by Kholai on Kongregate

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Topic: Realm Grinder / [Suggestions]

1: Remove clicking.

Only without clicking do autoclickers do not matter. In place of clicking, while the cursor is above the treasure, gain Click Rewards at a rate of 4 ticks per second, upgradeable to 10 ticks per second via trophies based on how many income ticks have been gained.

Abilities that multiply click income such as Holy Light, Charged Clicks and such instead multiply how much clicks per second occur.

2: Autobuy Upgrade.

Unlocked with buying 2,000, 5,000, and 10,000 buildings in a single game.

Only by being able to advance while idling can idlers hope to begin to compare. Buy buildings as soon as you have enough money to afford them at a 100%/50%/0% markup, with priority given to lowest tier first.

3: Gem purchases.

Purchases that cost gems to acquire. For example:

1e4 gems: Start with an additional 100 gold. (Max: 100,000, price increases every purchase.)
1e5 gems: Start with an additional 1 Faction Coin of each type. (Max: 500, price increases every purchase)
1e6 gems: You may unlock an additional “click” per second. (Max: 10, price increased by a factor of ten for every click).
1e6 gems: Gain an additional 0.1 mana/s. (Max 2, price increased by a factor of ten every purchase).
1e6 gems: Gain a permanent assistant. (Max 10, price increased by a factor of ten every purchase).
1e12 gems: Buy 1 ruby. Price increases by the same 1/2n(n
1) formula.
1e20 gems: You may unlock two factions in a single play through, must be different alignments. (May be purchased twice, second cost: 1e30 gems, giving the ability of one of each alignment).
Reset: Once per day, reset all purchased upgrades to restore lost gems.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / Two Tier Prestige System

I like the basic idea, though I do have a few reservations.

Prestige Tier 1: This actually seems to be the stronger of the two. Twenty-seven combined abilities and three alignment spells? One problem is how skewed this would make the factions. Calculating it out, Prestige Neutral stomps all over Good which stomps all over Evil.

So as a minor suggested tweak, what about slowing down the acquisition and giving a motive to play all three alignments anyway?

Prestige Tier 1: Ancient factions must be once again unlocked by getting ~1e12 gems. They’re going to be better, may as well just lock ’em out.

You may select any Faction Treaty of that alignment at any Tier. Angel Trade, Fairy Friendship, Elven Alliance.
After selecting each three tiers, an additional three tiers may be selected at escalating prices, allowing two Trade Treaties, two Friendship Pacts, and two Alliances total. This would work out at 2,500, 10,000, 50,000, 250,000, 750,000 and finally 3,000,000 Faction Coins to unlock every faction and upgrade, while the cash prices would increase factorially.
For each Trade Treaty, gain the Faction spell of that Faction.
When all three tiers for all three factions are unlocked, gain “Alignment” heritage.

Then with all three alignment heritages you can then progress to any alignment/faction combo with the ability to unlock more than 9 total treaties with gem count or something.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / Undead and Assistants

Originally posted by Sapreaver:

I know kholai and slammer thats why i’m asking for undead buffs you totally ignored the last part of my statement where I said " as someone said in chat you get combos that give you that really quickly and get get more gems faster."

Except I wasn’t talking about combos or overpowered factions (If I was, I’d be talking about “hourly” growth, not “daily” growth), I was talking any faction capable of even doubling gem total in a day, which is pretty doable for most factions, at least at lower levels of play.

The problem isn’t combos, which are Angel and End Game exclusive, and it certainly isn’t faction coins, the problem is inherent to the very idea of undead. The game is designed that Gem Cost increases twice as quickly as Gem count. The longer you play, the faster gem cost climbs, and the more production you are forsaking in the form of gems. There’s no time based bonus that makes longer games viable on any faction, you get to your sweet spot, you get your gems, you get out.

So the problem isn’t just power, it’s execution; we need a faction that focuses on what Undead promises: A Steady Flow of Production that Increases Drastically as time passes.

So as one potential option, change the time based abilities to be: “Increase Assistant Production based on the number of gems earned this play through compared to the number of gems you already own”. A bonus based on the number of gems Undead have earned as a percentage of their starting amount. Being Assistant only allows it to be a bigger bonus than it could be if it were something abusable like overall production or click production, and it ensures that Undead become the quintessential assistant faction.

The longer they play, the more gems they get. The more gems they get, the higher their assistant production increases, letting them earn more gems. They still have to reset eventually to multiply all their production (and thus give a higher base for their assistants to work off), but until they do, they reap some of the benefits of their long games.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / Undead and Assistants

Originally posted by Sapreaver:

Realistically undead are really insane around 17 days in. someone posted in the active gameply thread might have even been the OP about 40000% production during the spell combo undead reach that at 16.66 days as just their regular production and at 25 days it’s up to 90000% It just takes time but as someone said in chat you get combos that give you that really quickly and get get more gems faster.

Realistically, by the time undead get “insane” at 17 days, you’re comparing 90000% production with 6553600%, because if you hadn’t been taking a break with undead you could have been doubling your gems every twenty four hours.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / Ultimate factions

As an alternative, what about an alignment based set of prestige upgrades on top of your existing faction? These prestige upgrades would contain abilities related to each of the aligned factions specialities (For example, the “Good” Prestige faction would include Mana Generation, Powerful Clicking, and Strong Farms/Inns/Blacksmiths), and offer a fifth spell.

The non-neutral versions could offer more powerful upgrades to equalise the three alignments.

Ideally the way these prestige factions interacted with the existing faction would mean you didn’t just have three “ultimate” factions, but that each of the nine factions would be massively boosted in slightly different ways, letting people enjoy variety of play without punishing them for it.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / New hidden trophy upgrades

Originally posted by NormaTheNorman:

I’ve tested now it too, and it really doesn’t help early game.

Here’s the problem:

You do GB, wait for a bit for the extra GB time to get used up, then add CtA. Then you wait to add Grinder. But you have all this lost time waiting for Grinder, because GB/CtA combo alone is weak. Turns out it’s usually better to just to CtA and Grinder as normal – which you can do fully in Druid fairly quickly if not immediately upon getting the Stone Pillars upgrade. The time switching it around and waiting for Gem Grinder to catch up is better used just continuing to do the normal double casting of GG/CtA, and then waiting for GB to catch up. And thus again extra GB time is totally wasted. You don’t even need to bother clicking when GB is up alone as it’s comparably worthless.

I think this is either: 1] A simple oversight on the Dev’s part OR 2] An early set up for another upgrade that will make the extended GB useful. But right now it’s utterly useless under all circumstances I can conceive of.


It depends what you consider early game. For me, anything pre-heritage is early game druid, it can take awhile for them to earn the 25,000 faction coins necessary to get heritage up and their triple combo growth gains active.

Early Game Druid (Tier 3 upgrades, no Druid Heritage): 2200 Mana with ~9 mana/s.

Cast GB. Mana is 1200.
Wait 4 seconds: Mana is 1236.
Cast Gem Grinder: Mana is 236.
Wait 18ish seconds: Mana is 400.
Cast CtA: 1 second of triple combo.

That 1 second of combo time is worth 50 seconds of double combo. This lets you buy more Stone Pillars, letting you get more up time, letting you progress faster.

If you buy 5 more Pillars, that’s 2210 mana, almost 3 seconds of triple combo overlap – Still 21 seconds to charge CtA, so still no overlap without it.

Buy 5 more Pillars, 2220 mana, still no triple combo without Halls of Balance, 4 seconds triple combo with it.

It adds up, and because you’re getting full combo casts thanks to HoB, you’ll get pillars faster, and grow faster, and get buildings faster, and so get stronger GB casts… until the point that you can afford a full triple combo without the extra time, the extra 4 seconds is worthwhile.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / "Best" Faction

Originally posted by UeberBob:

You know, it would be a much better measure of comparison to use total gold for a run, rather than gems. Gems are constantly increasing in cost, so if you double your gem increase two runs in a row, the second is significantly more impressive because those gems cost a lot more. The more gems you’re doubling, the more impressive it is.

So comparing the ability to double your gems alone is not the best way to compare factions. A better solution would be to look at gold coins per gem, because they have a stable value.

Neither has a stable value. If you start with 1,000,000,000 gems, each gem is around 5e26 coins or so. Double your gems, it’s around 2e27, or four times as expensive.

Likewise, assuming you can unlock and purchase every upgrade every game, then your income would be doubled with twice as many gems, then the extra coins you can get with your doubled income is spent on more buildings.

Also, for the record my last Titan run was 1h 36m, and doubled my gems. 1.65e17 up to 3.302e17. I’m currently waiting for Druids to get their heritage, which I expect to take about twelve hours total, before I can start getting full mileage out of them and see how long it takes to do the same.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / New hidden trophy upgrades

Originally posted by NormaTheNorman:

I have to assume Halls of Balance upgrade is geared towards early game people who don’t yet have 2400 or more in their Druid mana bar. Because it’s utterly useless once you have close to 2400. Those extra seconds are completely wasted since the other two spells you use with the notoriously weak GB don’t match it.

I’d really like to see this readjusted so that it’s useful for all people playing Druid, and not just early players. How about a small percentage boost to GB instead, or something even more clever that fits this special? Seems the other two neutral faction upgrades are useful throughout the play through of their respective factions, so why not for Druids?

Perhaps the aim of Halls of Balance was to smooth out Druid’s early game? They’re certainly powerful enough when they get going, but they’re dreadfully slow getting there. This lets them start being useful earlier, and thus grow faster, reaching their maximum rate sooner.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / Titan Help

Originally posted by slammer303:

I am not saying that it is or isn’t better to not get some building types because I haven’t done the math so I have no opinion on the debate as a whole, but Kholai is wrong when he speaks about the severity of the fairy heritage bonus loss. +37.5% puts income at 137.5% and +112.5% puts income at 212.5%. This is a significant difference but it doesn’t even cut your production in half, and it is nowhere near triple like Kholai said.

Quite right, I wasn’t accounting for it properly, it’s “just” another 1/3rd lost. Still significantly worse, just less so. 6.31% versus 9.09%.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / Titan Help

Originally posted by Atombender:

At which point should you stop doing royal exchanges and save for heritages?

After the first couple. It shouldn’t take more than a few Strikes to get basic Heritages, and until you get Druid’s Heritage you’re not going to pile on the income anyway even with the exchanges.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / Equality Achievement

While I feel your pain, given my predilection for angels, pre-equality, if we give this achievement away on the cheap, why not the other, 30 day play time achievements?

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Topic: Realm Grinder / Titan Help

Originally posted by Shirahago:

You really don’t lose that much if you only build Blacksmith/Mines/Monastery/Stronghold/Pyramid/HoL, the other thread mentioned less than 1%. Also the chance for Lightning Storm is 1/2 for hitting a good building, 1/3 bad and 1/3 very bad. Compared to having 5 more buildings on which Lightning Strike is flat out wasted this is much better.

You need to either pay more attention to your upgrades or learn2maths.

Fairy Heritage: +0.075% per Farms/Inns/Blacksmiths.

500 of each: +112.5% from Fairy Heritage.
500 Blacksmiths only: +37.5% from Fairy Heritage.

You’ve just divided your production, and Lightning Storm, by 3.

Oversized Legends: Reduce Hall of Legends building cost multiplier and increase assistants production by 1% per Hall of Legends you own.

500 Halls of Legend: Say each Assistant is worth 5 times its normal (Which is about ~1% of your production normally, each).
11 Buildings: 15 Assistants: 75% of your production again.
5 fewer buildings: 10 Assistants: 50% of your production.

You’ve lost 33% of your total coins/sec from assistant, or a 15% reduction in overall income.

Cyclopean Strength: Each assistant increases the production of all buildings by 0.25% per Hall of Legends you own.

On top of being beefy, beefy, assistants, Cyclopean Strength turns each assistant into an additive multiplier with those Halls o’ Legend.

15 Assistants: 125% each, 1875% production.
10 assistants: 1250% production.

You’ve just knocked another third off your production.

Forget the 1% loss in income, 100%/6 = 16.7% average building power for 6 building Lightning Strike.

16.7% x 1/3 × 0.85 × 2/3 = 3.15%

Enjoy your crippling self-imposed handicap.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / When do you soft reset?

Depends on full production of the faction versus the set up time needed to reach full production for that faction.

Assume a fast faction. An hour of setup time. +100% of starting gems produced per hour.

Here’s the gems you’d get after 24 hours, assuming constant gain and rebirthing:
Every 2 hours: 12 games. 2^12 x4,096 your original gem count.
Every 3 hours: 8 games. 3^8 x6,561 gems.
Every 4 hours: 6 games. 4^6 x4,096 gems.
Every 6 hours: 4 games. 6^4 x1,296 gems.
Every 8 hours: 3 games. 8^3 x512 gems.

So the sweet spot would be after tripling your gems – 1 hour down, 2 hours up.

Second, assume your downtime is longer – two hours setup time, but you get +500% gems per hour:

Every 3 hours: 8 games. 6^8 x1,679,616 gems.
Every 4 hours: 6 games. 11^6 x1,771,561 gems.
Every 6 hours: 4 games. 21^4 x194,481 gems.
Every 8 hours: 3 games. 31^3 x29,791 games.

Here, the sweet spot is 4 hours. 2 hours setting up, 2 hours getting the most out of your gems.

Finally, assume a slower faction. After eight hours of setup time, +500% of starting gems produced per hour. I’ll stretch gains over a three day period this time, since the maths is easier, so bear that in mind if for some odd reason you wanted to compare this with the above.

Every 9 hours: 8 games. x390,625 gems.
Every 10 hours: 7 games. x19,487,171 gems.
Every 12 hours: 6 games. x85,766,121 gems.
Every 18 hours: 4 games. x6,765,201 gems.
Every 24 hours: 3 games. x357,911 gems.

Here, the sweet spot would be twelve hours. 8 hours down, 4 hours up.

Now, do bear in mind that gem acquisition slows down the more gems you get, that you can unlock new, accelerating upgrades, and all sorts of other complicating variables, but as you can see the “ideal” time varies enormously, depending on uptime versus rate of acquisition.

One consistent observation is that longer games are less valuable than shorter games. This is because each game is a multiplicative increase. A three-day game gaining x170 your starting gems is less valuable than three one-day games gaining x10 your starting gems (10^3 = x1,000 gems).

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Topic: Realm Grinder / 600x faction buildings

Originally posted by littlefuzzy01:

How many gems are suggested for 600 buildings?

Goblins – ?
Demons – ?
Angels – ?

Too many confounding factors, activity level, gem count, time you’re willing to put into it and so on.

Goblins can achieve it from 0 buildings to 600 of each building at more or less zero gems, just takes 3,300 casts of Goblin Greed, which is around 4.5 days solid play. With every building you purchase with coin, that time falls by just under 2 minutes.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / Titan Help

1: Reset early.

Titans are a short term faction. They reach their maximum production very quickly, but they don’t product as much in the long term. Plan accordingly. If you get your current gems every hour of active play, you’ll have x10 your starting gems after nine hours of play. If you reset every three hours instead, you’d have x64. Don’t get lured in by upgrades or a trophy you “just need a few monasteries strikes” to reach, you can get them next reset naturally when you’ve quadrupled your income.

2: Royal Exchange early.

Lightning Strike will give you thousands of faction coins per cast. Buying 2 each as soon as you unlock them isn’t going to noticeably slow them down, and it will double your income early on, which means peaking even faster.

3: Don’t sweat the RNG.

Lightning Strike will eventually hit your farms. It happens, and a 900 mana “35% increase” is never fun. Try to ignore it. Long term Lightning Strike will average out at 9.1% of your total production x4(5) of your Strongholds. 9.1% with 500 Strongholds and the Lightning Storm upgrade is an x227.5 multiplier, four times better than Gem Grinder.

4: Be active and combo.

Just like Druids, you’re not going to get much out of Titans if you’re AFK (though they’re surprisingly one of the better idlers thanks to their bonuses). You might not be able to get to 6,000 buildings yet, but even with 5,000 you’ll have 4.6 mana/s and 1,250 mana. Lightning Strike, see what’s casting, and maybe spend your faction coins. By the time you’ve recharged enough mana to cast Call to Arms you can either ignore it and get your next Lightning Strike a minute and a half sooner, or if it hits any of your five power buildings cast the combo and enjoy nine seconds of x7280 multiplier.

Even when you can afford to cast both spells at once, it’s still worth waiting a second or two. If it’s farms, you’ve just saved 30% of your mana, getting to your next Strike that much quicker versus losing ~10% of your combo time, a net improvement.

5: Ignore anti-building heathens.

Aka: Don’t forget that Titans are more than just Lightning Strike. Without Druidic Heritage, the advantage to Lightning Strike is about 1% overall improvement if you don’t build any Stone Pillars, Alchemy Labs or Labyrinths. Any fewer building types and you’ll be worse off, since you’ll be sacrificing sizeable Titan multipliers to get them.
With Druidic Heritage, sacrificing those same building types is going to cost you 3 Assistants, quarter your overall multiplier, and easily 90 maximum mana or more.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / Lightening strike

Originally posted by demonwonders:

What if you went with 6 buildings relying only on clicks to get that first blacksmith? That is if you are willing to do the crazy math again.

With 6 buildings, a Lightning Strike averages at 16.5%.

Without farms, Fairy Heritage is at 33% effectiveness.
With 5 fewer assistants your bonus is 1000% compared to 1500% (Accounting for the two new assistants). That, again, is 66% effectiveness.

I don’t even need any further calculations here, the equivalent effective bonus gained by 6 building Lightning Strike is 3.7% compared to the basic 9%.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / Lightening strike

Originally posted by wooli:

If you can’t reach it then its worth it to just build inns/farms/blacksmiths/Deep mines, Monastery, Iron stronghold, Ancient Pyramid, HoL

You’re right, I did miss Cyclopean Strength, thanks for catching that.

Let’s review 8 buildings versus 11, no heritage:

With 11 Buildings, Lightning Strike averages at 9% per cast (simple maths, 100% / 11 = ~9.1%).

With 8 Buildings, Lightning Strike averages at 12.5% per cast (99.5% / 8 = 12.4375%)

12.5/9 = 39%, rounding up, so Lightning Strike output averages out 39% better over time.

With 8 Buildings, your Cyclopean bonus is a 1000% increase instead of 1300%.

So full buildings: 9 × 14 = “126”
8 buildings: 12.5 × 11 = “137.5”

And there’s one more thing that Assistants do that isn’t included in Coins per Second, which is, y’know, be Assistants. Each Assistant, with all clicking upgrades and Trade Union, produces around 1.5% of coins per second, so again, that’s:

137.5 × 115% – 158.125
126 × 119.5% – 150.57

A ~4.78% difference during Lightning Strike.

Is it worth it?

Assume that it takes 200 seconds to regain the mana for Lightning Strike. 20 seconds of this will be Strike time, the other 180s will be base time.

100% x 14 (Cyclopean) x 1.195 (Assistants) = 16.73/s, or 3,011.4 of Arbitrary Equivalent Production over 180 seconds.

99.5% x 11 (Cyclopean) x 1.15 (Assistants) = 12.58675/s, or 2,265.615 AEP over 180 seconds.

Now 20 seconds of Lightning Strike time. Assuming 500 Strongholds, that’s x2000.

100% x 9% x 2000(LS) x 14 (Cyclopean) x 1.195 (Assistants) + [16.73 *.91] (Remaining, unboosted base production) = 3026.6 AEP, or 60,532.48
99.5% x 12.5% x 2000 (LS) x 11 (Cyclopean) x 1.15 (Assistants) + [12.58675 * 87.5%] (Remaining, unboosted base production) = 3,157.7 AEP or 63,154

60,532.48 + 3,011.4 = 63,543.88
62,933.75 + 2265.615 = 65,419.6

And just in case:
Maths without rounding: 9.0909090909090909090909090909091% vs 12.4375 is 136.8125% better, not 139%. The actual result is therefore:

64,151.945454545454545454545454545 total AEP for 11 buildings.
And 65,105.121709375 total AEP for 8 buildings.

Conclusion: You’re 1.47% better off, purely autocasting LS, to go with 8 buildings rather than 11.

And while I was writing this, a bunch more Assistants became available with the update, so the difference is probably even more in favour of buildingless again (but never 6 buildings).

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Topic: Realm Grinder / Lightening strike

Originally posted by NormaTheNorman:
Originally posted by Sapreaver:

the trick to titans is to only ever build blacksmiths strongholds monasteries pyramid and halls. nothing else
this gives it 2/5th chance of getting something good and a 2/5th of something kinda good and a 1/5 chance of something dreadful

How does this work in relation to Druid Heritage, and your lack of a mana pool since you have far fewer buildings? Are you talking mostly active, or mostly idle play? Dual or triple casting still available? Clicking much or at all? More details please. I’d like to try out a reasonable strategy next time I play Titans. I’d love it to be an idle or semi-idle strategy if at all possible.

You sacrifice less than 1% of your total production if you only get Smiths, Deep Mines, Monasteries, Strongholds, Pyramids and Halls of Legend, except losing 2/3s of your Fairy Heritage multiplier drops your production to 33% what it could be, and and you lose 5/13 assistants.

If you sacrifice Deep Mines as well, you’re sacrificing 14.3% of your overall production on top of an extra lost assistant, and a proportionally higher chance that Lightning Strike will hit your Blacksmiths from 1/6 to 1/5.

In terms of production comparison, you have a 1/6 chance of hitting a building versus 1/11. Slightly over double the chance. You have a 1/6 chance of hitting 14.3%, 2/6 chance of hitting ~8%, 1/6 chance of hitting 26%, 1/6 chance of hitting 43%, and 1/6 chance of hitting 0.25%. Your multiplier will hit an average of 16.6% of your overall production

Comparatively, with 11 buildings the average value your multiplier will hit will be 9%.

It goes without saying that you can’t combo CtA in the former case, but even without it, the loss of Fairy Heritage bonuses means that 16.6% is only actually worth 5.5% adjusted. Not worth it in my opinion.

  • Disclaimer: Values given are not percentage of total for the building limited, but as their percentage of my current, regular Titans game. Actual building numbers may vary slightly.
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Topic: Realm Grinder / Max Mana Upgrades

I concede the point regarding Angel buildings, however do note that lower mana/s skews things further in favour of Druidic Heritage.

However your major problem seems to be the assumption that you must either autocast, or you must cast constantly without cease. This is not the case. Note that in each conclusion I state: Active Play. Druidic Heritage is a large bonus to active play.

When you are not engaged in active play – and you may choose to engage actively at any particular time – then the benefits you gain during that period of time are potentially astronomical. When you are not engaged in active play, you are autocasting and gaining just as much as you would anyway.

Being able to combo Lightning Strike with Call to Arms gives you the opportunity to gain five times as many gems in a period of time, and at almost five minutes a cast, that’s hardly “ogling the mana bar”, that’s “check in every now and then”.
And if you forget to check it and don’t cast anything for a few minutes, so what? The Lightning Strike you didn’t cast is paid for four times over by the one you cast with Call to Arms active – and if you’re feeling particularly dedicated, you can even cast Lightning Storm first, and only use Call to Arms only if it lands on, say, your Monasteries.

So taking your fifteen minutes of active playtime, Druidic Heritage improves your potential gain during those minutes by what, five? Fifty? Assuming you sacrifice a single autocast of your favourite spell in order to multiply your next spell by 16, then you’ve just turned one spell into eight. Assuming that extra mana lets you multiply that x50 God’s Hand and x16 Call to Arms by your x15 Holy Light, you’ve just turned one minute’s progress into fifteen. Do that four times through the day, you’ve gained an hour, an hour you could then spend using Tax Collections to boost your Determination instead. Druidic Heritage opens up a tactical option that simply doesn’t exist otherwise.

And when you’re done, autocast goes back on, and you’ve lost nothing.


1: There is nothing wrong with you not being able to use Druidic Heritage. You can double your gems in a day and you have at least a billion gems, you will be able to use it eventually. That is not a reasonable argument to change it.

2: There is no need for Druidic Heritage to surpass the other heritages, but it doesn’t matter. Much like clicking upgrades, Druidic Heritage supplies a bonus for active play. For particularly active play, this can be astronomical, an x100 overall multiplier over the course of a day far outstrips any other heritage. For particularly inactive play, it may not grant any benefit whatsoever. This does not mean that it needs improvement, any more than clicking upgrades should be 10,000% of total production each because I happen to only click once a day.

3: Whatever improvement you can imagine to make Druidic Heritage more powerful so that more people can use it will be vastly more powerful in the hands of those already able to eke massive gains from its current state. 1 mana per building? Gem Grinder + Lightning Strike + Call to Arms for a full minute out of every 30? The last thing this game needs is to widen the gap between active and inactive even further.

As per your original post, Max Mana upgrades are extremely useful, powerful, and valuable, whether for Druids, who are widely considered to be the best faction at present, or anyone else. It does not need to be buffed or changed.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / The Goblin Central Bank Nerf

No way, forget it. Goblins are terrible. By the time you have a few gems under your belt Goblins Greed is only useful for earning trophies, they get no mana bonuses so they’re worse at comboing CtA with BF than either other evil faction, and it’s only their multipliers which barely allow them to be better than Undead.

So no, in my opinion don’t take anything away from Goblins, just give them back their interest rate and keep the free Tax Collection. If you’re lucky it might propel them from 4th place in faction power all the way up to 4th.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / Max Mana Upgrades


5,000 buildings.
500 Cathedrals. 0.0075 each = 3.75 mana.
400 Royal Castles. 0.01 each = 4 mana.
400 Heaven’s Gates. 0.015 each = 6 mana.
4 mana, base = 17.75 mana * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 34.6 mana/s, assume 35 mana/s.

Call to Arms = x16
God’s Hand at 35 mana/s *150% = x53.5
Holy Light is hard to quantify, since Clicks don’t translate back into production per second, but let’s assume x15 for simplicity, though it’s probably a little less.

Since Angels gain mana so quickly, and will be comboing anyway, I’ll ignore all but their comparative fill times.

300 + 900 + 800 = 57 seconds of mana gaining.

Max mana takes 29 seconds to fill.
W/heritige, Max mana takes 36 seconds to fill.

No heritage, combo cast Call to Arms > God’s Hand > Holy Light.

Assuming you’re maximising gains over a single combo, then:

Cast Call to Arms. 1000 – 300 = 700.
6 seconds to restore to 900 mana. Cast God’s Hand.
22 seconds to restore 700 mana. Cast Holy Light.
9 seconds to restore 300 mana. Recast Call to Arms.

CtA = 6 × 16 = 96
CtA + GH = 22 × 16 × 53.5 = 18,832
CtA + GH + HL = 2 × 16 × 53.5 x 15 = 25,680
GH + HL = 8 × 53.5 × 15 = 6420
HL + CtA = 5 × 16 × 15 = 1200
CtA = 25 × 16 = 400

Total = x52,628 total gain.

Or: Cast Call to Arms.
9 seconds to restore to 1,000 mana. Cast God’s Hand.
18 seconds to restore to 700 mana. Cast Holy Light.
9 seconds to restore to 300 mana. Cast Call to Arms again.

CtA = 9 × 16
CTA + GH = 18 × 16 × 53.5
CtA + GH + HL = 3 × 16 × 53.5 x 15
GH + HL = 6 × 53.5 × 15
CtA(2) + GH + HL = 1 × 16 × 53.5 x 15
CtA + HL = 5 × 16 × 15
CtA = 24 × 16

Total = x73,311 total gain.

Heritage, identical combo, Call to Arms > God’s Hand > Holy Light.

Again, broadly aiming at maximised gains.

1250 – 300 = 950.
5 seconds to restore up to 1125 mana. Cast God’s Hand.
14 seconds to restore 700 mana. Cast Holy Light.
9 seconds to restore 300 mana. Recast Call to Arms when it expires.


CtA = 5 × 16 = 80
CtA + GH = 14 × 16 × 53.5 = 11,984
CtA(1) + GH + HL = 11 × 16 × 53.5 x 25 plus
CtA(2) + GL + HL = 4 × 16 × 53.5 x 25 = 321,000
CtA + GH = 1 × 16 × 53.5 = 856
CtA = 25 × 16 = 400

= 334,320 total.

And 12 seconds of downtime to repeat the combo.

Assuming the whole combo takes a minute – two 30 second casts of Call to Arms (it actually takes a little longer without heritage, but meh) – that’s 65 seconds without heritage, 72 seconds with heritage. 90%.

Total Adjusted Production: x300,888.

Six times better with 250 greater mana total.

Yes, the gap narrows the more mana/s you get and the less delay between spells, but this opens up a perfect fifteen second overlapping combo by the time you have a measly 35 mana, something easily achieved within around twelve hours of play.

Conclusion: Active play with Druid heritage is 410% better than it is without, thanks to the greater ease of chaining casts together.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / Druid or Faceless?

Faceless Heritage offers a scaling bonus to production based on # of times you’ve been faceless, and it’s a little less dependent on higher tier upgrades than Druids are.

And seriously, it takes three solid days to unlock, get it first.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / Max Mana Upgrades


- Call to Arms with Lightning Strike.

5,000 buildings (If I recall, I had closer to 6k after eight hours of AFK setup time, but 5,000 is easier). We’ll assume 400 of these are Strongholds.
This gives an x16 multiplier for Call to Arms and +250 mana from Heritage.
400 Strongholds gives an x1,600 multiplier. Assume it always hits an arbitrary building that’s worth 1% of total, that’s another x16 multiplier.
4.4 mana/s because screw simple, we’re in it for the moneys.
All other passives will be ignored. Tax Collection will be ignored, because it doesn’t take into account click based income.

1250 mana takes 285 seconds. 80 seconds longer than 900 mana, and given the extra 12 seconds needed to charge up for, and cast, Lightning Strike rather than getting to charge straight after casting, so let’s add that on top.

Total Combo Charge Time: 297 seconds vs 205 seconds. I’m lazy, so 300 vs 200. 50% longer, or 2/3s as often. Because it casts 2/3s as often, output will be multiplied by 2/3s to compare.

No Heritage, single cast, Lightning Strike:

x16 multiplier for 20 seconds.

20 × 16 = x320 total gain

Heritage, cast Call to Arms. 12 seconds later, cast Lightning Strike.:

x16 multiplier for 12 seconds.
x16^2 multiplier for 8 seconds.
x16 multiplier for 12 seconds.

12 × 16 = 192
8 × 16 × 16 = 2048
12 × 16 = 192

2432 production.

Multiplied by 2/3s time penalty.

x1621 total gain.

That’s five times better, including time penalty.

For completion’s sake, though, let’s compare single cast, no heritage gem grinder.
228 seconds to cast.
1e9 gems is 20,000,100% multiplier, gem grinder makes this into a flat 1,000,000,100% multiplier, or x 1,0,000,001 versus x200,001. Not quite x50, but close enough as not to care.

20 × 50 = x1000

Compared to 300/230 mana, that’s 1.3 times, or about ~77% the speed of the combo, so:

2432 production x 77% = x1864. 1.8 times superior.

Conclusion: Titan active play with Druid Heritage is 80% more effective than it is without, or 500% more effective comparing the same primary spell.


- Gem Grinder with Call to Arms. Assume Brainwave will be ignored as being useless and weird, which is usually true.

5,800 buildings. Probably around half of which are Labyrinths.
This gives an x18.4 multiplier for Call to Arms and +290 mana from Heritage.
Mana Gain: 8 clicks per second. 1.6 mana/second, not boosted by Angelic Determination. 6 mana gain total. (# of clicks the game is “balanced” around)
Gem Grinder: x50
1,000 mana takes 167 seconds to charge.

No Heritage, single cast, Gem Grinder:

50 × 20 = 1,000 total gain.

Heritage, Call to Arms + Gem Grinder combo.

19 × 18.4 = 349.6
1 × 18.4 × 50 = 920
19 × 50 = 950

= x2,219.6 total production.

It takes 215 seconds to max 1,290. Add 19 seconds from comboing into Call to Arms. 167/234 = 71% multiplier.

  • x1575 total gain.*

Conclusion: With 1 second of overlap Faceless active gain is 57.5% more with Druid Heritage than it is without.

Druid with Druid Heritage versus no Druid Heritage:

Assume 500 Stone Pillars, and 5,000 buildings.
18 Assistants – total 8 mana/s.
Assume Grand Balance is an x20 multiplier, because life is too short and it hardly matters anyway.
Call to Arms is x16.

No Heritage: Gem Grinder + Grand Balance.
2k mana with all max mana bonuses and no heritage takes 250 seconds to fill.

20 × 50 × 20 = x20,000 total production.

Heritage: Call to Arms + Gem Grinder + Grand Balance.

2,250 mana takes 282 seconds to fill, and 19 seconds to recover the 150 mana from Call to Arms necessary, so 301 seconds.

19 × 16 = 304
1 × 16 × 50 x 20 = 16,000
19 × 50 × 20 = 19,000

For a total of 35,304.
x83% = 29,302 total production.

Conclusion: Active play with Druid Heritage with 1 second of overlapping triple spell coverage is 46% more effective than it is without, and about a thousand times better than it would be without increased maximum mana.

Note that in every case I have rounded and fudged in favour of the non-Heritage, and that 5,000 buildings is not a huge number. Suggesting to massively buff an already powerful heritage because you haven’t progressed far enough to utilise it is like asking angels to be buffed because you’ve only got enough gems to get up to 15 mana/s.

Speaking of, I daresay I’ll cover angels next.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / What faction to use?

Undead are terrible.
Elves are worse.
Goblins are bad.

Fairies are supoib.
Demons are great.
Angels are god tier, but only really get great later on, and you need to be at least semi-active.

So yeah, assuming you’ve unlocked all the heritages on the terribad factions, try one of those three. Demons might suit an idle playstyle better.

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Topic: Realm Grinder / Charged Clicks bug

Most likely cause here I would suggest is that:

a) You misread Charged Clicks as 900%, rather than 800%.
b) When you switched tabs, Lightning Strike activated on, say, Farms. When you got back, the amount of coins gained by clicking fell to 18% from 20%, easy to happen in your first half hour.
c) When you switched tabs again, Lightning Strike activated on, say, Ancient Pyramids, and the amount of coins gained by clicking fell from 18% to 10%.
d) While writing it fell to 9%, and your Charged Clicks rose to 910%, then again to 940% a minute later.

Again, all very easy to see happening in your first half hour of play, where a single good Lightning Strike can potentially double your revenue.

It’s also worth noting that small numbers are more volatile in terms of percentages.

I have 100 gold, and 20 gold of that is from clicking. Click% = 20%, Charged clicks = 800%.
I gain 100 more gold, no extra clicks. Click% = 10%, Charged Clicks = 900%.
I gain 200 more gold. Click% = 5%.
I gain 50 more gold, and 50 more gold from clicking. Click% = 14%.
I gain 5,000 more gold, Click% = 1%.

The longer your game progresses, and the more spells and multipliers you’ve cast, the less dramatic changes to income become, in terms of percentage.

As was stated, the only things that matter are your click gains as a percentage of production, whether that percentage is correctly calculated, and what percentage your Charged Clicks is at.