Recent posts by issendorf on Kongregate

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Quick political question

Kasic comes from the United States of America I believe. Pretty sure what works in the USA will also work in the USA.

Kasic and jhco are even from the same state!

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Quick political question

Because of groupthink and group polarization.

End of thread.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Free speech vs. discrimination -- where do we draw the line?

So my question to everyone is—are her opinions appropriate and protected under free speech? Or are they out of line, and reflecting poorly on the college she represents? Are they discriminatory, and if so, should her military students be eligible for reparations and grades they feel they may have been awarded unfairly?

Depending on her contract, she absolutely can be fired as if the university continues to employ her, it comes off as looking as if they tacitly support her opinions. Now, I really hate when a prof is fired simply for having controversial views as universities are, allegedly, places where all views are supposed to be tolerated (clearly, there are some views that are thoroughly NOT tolerated, but let’s pretend universities actually live up to the standards that they’re supposed to fulfill shall we).

Offensive? Yes. Worthy of firing? Not in my opinion. Protected speech? Absolutely.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Spanking: yea or nay. -- Now expanded to include: How humanity uses physical force to ensure desired compliant behavior.

I never said it couldn’t work.

“It doesn’t instill better behavior or teach anything.”

“it doesn’t help anything either.”

: )

(and those were just on one page!)

Also, you are quoting the controversy. The findings of many others disagreed with those results, and the APA recommends no use of physical punishment due to that. Way to quote mine. Here’s what prefaced the reference of that study.

Ohhhhhhh, you don’t like it when I quote the parts that disagree with you. Got it. I’ll try not to do anything that refutes your point of view moving forward.

Try reading their conclusion. You seem to have trouble doing anything except cherry picking bits when the authors reference opposing/relevant studies, then taking that opposing/relevant study they referenced and completely ignoring everything else.

Sort of like when you ignored the conclusion of the article I linked and cherry picked the parts that referenced the opposing point of view?

It’s like having a tool that’s only good for one very specific job and saying it’s a good tool when you have a multi-tool capable of doing so much more and performing the other task equally.

Except other forms of discipline don’t work on some children. Your argument is to keep trying a technique that doesn’t work lest you cause any physical pain to your child.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Spanking: yea or nay. -- Now expanded to include: How humanity uses physical force to ensure desired compliant behavior.

American Psychological Association.

“In a meta-analysis of 26 studies, Larzelere and a colleague found that an approach they described as “conditional spanking” led to greater reductions in child defiance or anti-social behavior than 10 of 13 alternative discipline techniques, including reasoning, removal of privileges and time out (Clinical Child and Family Psychology Review, 2005). Larzelere defines conditional spanking as a disciplinary technique for 2- to 6-year-old children in which parents use two open-handed swats on the buttocks only after the child has defied milder discipline such as time out.”

Weird, that was my argument in a nutshell – that conditional spanking can work and isn’t quite the horror show you make it. Good one!

American Academy of Pediatrics.

“Paternal spanking of any frequency at age 3 and 5 and maternal low-frequency spanking at age 3 were not significantly associated with externalizing at age 9.”

Also from the AAP.

References repeated spankings and spanking babies as its benchmark which I’ve said I’m not a big fan of.

Your linked article didn’t even agree with what you’ve been saying. It only concluded that mild spanking between the given age range did not have negative effects. It did not advocate the usage of spanking as a disciplinary technique, or say that there are times when it is justified to do so. It in fact explicitly stated that alternative methods worked just as well.

Then you didn’t read it as it quite clearly said there are advantages to spanking, such as:

“In the MANCOVAs, youth who recalled age-delimited physical discipline described themselves as the best adjusted.”

“One unfavorable association persisted: youth who did not recall having been spanked by their fathers provided lower estimates of academic rank.”

There are other benefits within it. I’m the one who has been saying it can be good. You’re the one say it’s never good. Even your studies don’t make the black and white claims you throw out routinely – mentioning trends is really as far as they’re willing to go for the most part.

Yeah, aside from possible poisoning, choking, or allergic reaction, what’s the harm?

Oh silly me thinking about realistic negatives. Unless there’s an epidemic of children choking, being poisoned or developing an allergic reaction that the lame stream media isn’t reporting?

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Spanking: yea or nay. -- Now expanded to include: How humanity uses physical force to ensure desired compliant behavior.

What are your reasons for this?

My reason is my oldest brother would not listen to authority (he eventually had to go to military school). At all. Spanking was really the only option to get him to do anything. The perception that spanking is done by poor parents who don’t know what they’re doing/don’t care/are unable to perform any other parental techniques is garbage. Not to toot my family’s own horn, but we all, even my eldest brother, eventually turned out well.

I now ask you – under what reasoning should spanking be allowed when there are perfectly acceptable methods that achieve the same or better results without risk of excessive use and no need to define what it “acceptable” physical punishment?

Obviously making a hard and fast rule is foolish, but I’d say somewhere in the age 4-8 range would be acceptable. That’s the generally range of cousins/niece/nephew that were spanked.

I’m not, and if you’re viewing it that I am, I apologize for being unclear. What I’ve been trying to do, continually, is show you examples and comparisons along with reasoning that spanking is not beneficial and only carries harmful consequences.

Yeah, those are the sort of black and white phrases I’m talking about.

It may not be harmful, but that’s sort of like arguing it’s okay to make your kid eat soap when they do something bad and as long as they don’t eat too much they won’t get sick.

Another thing I have no issue with – I never realized my upbringing was full of risque parental techniques!

Anyways, internet should be working fine again by Wednesday, so I’ll give you as many links as you want then (it took me 5 minutes to navigate back to the SD part of the forum from a single URL).

Good old Comcast – I feel your pain.

I’m a voracious reader, so feel free to pass those links along at your earliest convenience. Best of luck with the internet!

To this I say, a parent/child relationship should not revolve on the notion of parental violence. Or in less “extreme” terms, a parent has no more right to physically hurt their child than a teacher. The parent/child dynamic should not have pain as an ultimatum – if all else fails, the answer is not to physically hurt your child, however “mild” that hurting is.

For starters, the parent absolutely has more right to discipline their child how they see fit – parents are for parenting; teachers are for educating.

I totally agree with the first sentence here and respect your opinion at the end. My quibble with your argument is the insistence that there’s no good to come from spanking. I’m in total agreement it shouldn’t be a frequent tool, nor is it appropriate all the time. You could probably get to me agree that it isn’t appropriate most of the time. But all of the time? I don’t think I’ll come all the way over to your point of view on that.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Spanking: yea or nay. -- Now expanded to include: How humanity uses physical force to ensure desired compliant behavior.

You think that it is justified to hurt another person (someone whom you have authority over) a specific amount in order to make them behave the way you want them to. Is this correct?

I think it’s ok for a parent to spank their child, correct.

They don’t have the experience to know that a spanking isn’t a huge deal and isn’t lastingly painful. Imagine how frightening it is for them and how relatively painful it is. How it actually is painful to them, except amplified because they’re so young.

That depends on their experiences. A child who broke their arm riding their bike is not going to be frightened, nor are they going to see it as being especially painful (I’m assuming that breaking your arm hurts worse than a spanking, I’ve never actually broken a bone, so correct me if I’m wrong with this pain assessment).

Basically, the studies unanimously found that spanking can have adverse effects when done too much or too hard, and that the “benefits” gained from it were equal to alternative methods that did not involve physical punishment.
Notice that pretty much everything here is exactly what I’ve been saying – spanking is not beneficial, is effectively dominating a child into behaving, does not actually teach anything alone, and can be harmful.

I’m… I’m just sort of face palming at this point. I’ve said it should be used as a last resort after trying other methods of discipline and that it isn’t appropriate in all situations. I’m just noting the wildly incorrect absolutes that you are. It’s an incredibly gray issue that you’re bound and determined to paint into the whitest of whites and the blackest of blacks. I’ve also said that a spanking needs to have a conversation with it.

One of these times, you’ll remember what my opinion actually is. Will it be in your next post? I eagerly await the answer!

I won’t be so mean as to throw a 35 page paper at you though Issen. I’ll just give you a bunch of links from various accredited sources.

Feel free to – I’ll skim the hell out of it (how I read everything).

…Or I would, if my internet was working.

Story of my life growing up in dial up country, USA.

Why is it right to do this same thing to a child in your mind?

Because it’s a different relationship. A parent is one of authority, a spouse is a partnership. A parent gets to ground their kids; the kids don’t get to ground their parents, on a basic level.

It’s the same faulty comparison when someone says, if a parent can spank their kids, then a teacher should be able to spank kids. It’s not the same relationship.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Spanking: yea or nay. -- Now expanded to include: How humanity uses physical force to ensure desired compliant behavior.

AND, if YOU aren’t grown up enough to show the courtesy to respond to MY input on it…
well, that speaks a lot about you….doesn’t it?

I suppose it’s only appropriate to tell you why I’m ignoring you: it takes a lot of time and effort to parse your posts and formulate responses when, in the end, it’s just greeted with unfiltered vitriol and hate from you. Quite frankly, I’d rather just play a few games of Hearthstone than invest the time in having a conversation that I know isn’t going to go anywhere. Really, I’m a bit surprised that it’s surprising to you that you didn’t see this ending coming.

Cheers, karma (go Shockers [unless they meet Bucky, in which case fuck the Shockers]!).

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Spanking: yea or nay. -- Now expanded to include: How humanity uses physical force to ensure desired compliant behavior.

I then asked you what if the slap across the face hurt no worse than a spank – would it then be appropriate?

I don’t really see how that can be possible considering how little force it takes to cause a large amount pain. I’m also uncomfortable because the potential to cause lasting damage in a slap across the face than a slap on the ass where the potential for lasting damage is about nil.

Since we’re discussing a pretty unrealistic hypothetical, sure – if the amount of pain and the potential for lasting damage is the same, I have no real qualms.

Let’s just leave it at there are other ways to discipline that do not involve giving a child physical pain. Agree?

Of course – we only got on to that tangent because you made the claim that you can give discipline without punishment which is simply not true since discipline inherently involves a punishment, no matter how tame or severe it may be.

And a lashing is a variation on spanking. As is using a wooden spoon, for example.

I’ll give you that.

A child who has their toy taken away is not being tortured. They are not suffering. They are not “in pain.” Taking away a comfort object (like a favorite blanket that calms them) causes emotional pain. Taking away a video game does not.

They don’t know that though. They haven’t had the emotional development through life experiences that you and I have had. That’s why assuming the sorts of appraoches that would seem logical to you don’t necessarily have the same affect on an emotionally developing child.

Here’s something for you to read.

And here’s something for you to read. Mine is a scholarly article from someone with a PhD in development psychology. Yours is a blog post.

I’m fairly sure you have never seen a child spanked or been in an authoritative position over a child. You probably don’t interact with children at all or in any meaningful way. Am I right?

You are not, on all accounts.

Yes yes. That wasn’t my question. Assume there was never an agreement that they could do that and the wife does not want to be spanked. Is it still okay in your mind?

Does she get to spank him when he doesn’t follow his rules and he doesn’t want to be spanked? If it cuts the same both ways, I have no issue.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Why american soldiers should not be allowed in ukraine?

Or maybe America is the only country which thinks that a military confrontation is preferable to negotiations followed by possible economic sanctions.

Even the hawks here for the most part don’t want military conflict. They realize that, since Russia has such a weak economy, that economic sanctions will be plenty to cripple them.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Spanking: yea or nay. -- Now expanded to include: How humanity uses physical force to ensure desired compliant behavior.

In other words, you’re okay with spanking as long as it conforms to your harmless version that causes an arbitrary amount of pain that isn’t “too much for you to tolerate.” What?

A spanking is on the ass with your open palm which is what I’m fine with. A slap across the face isn’t a spanking. Got it? I sure hope so, although I imagine your next response will once again try to conflate spanking with some other form of physical pain.

A punishment is when you have an action done to you that results in the loss of something, pain, or other undesired consequence because of a prior action made.

Being forced to apologize is an action. Enforcing certain policies is an action (your example of losing cookies) is a loss of something. Doing chores is a punishment that results in an undesired consequence. I hope I don’t have to go through your laundry list of examples that shows all your prior examples are in fact punishments.

It was a video of a 16 year old girl who was getting whipped with a belt in a “spanking” by both her father and mother because of something related to the computer (I think she illegally downloaded music or a game?).

I guess you missed it when I said: “A hit on the ass with a belt is a lashing.”

You support the very narrow definition of spanking that you have provided and then turn around to say that you support spanking while acknowledging that spanking isn’t exactly what you define it to be always?

I give it a narrow definition because it inherently has a narrow definition: a slap on the ass with an open palm. I’ll just keep giving you the definition until you stop conflating it with other verbs.

Spanking is using violence/pain in an attempt to make a child behave in a certain way, or prevent them from behaving in an undesired manner. The preventative means comes from fear of being punished and the corrective means comes by physically dominating them into submitting to the punishment. Do you disagree?

I disagree that pain that inherently bad. Pain, whether it be physical pain, emotional pain, or pain of embarassment for having to do something you don’t want to are all hallmarks of effective discipline. Everything in moderation, including pain, can be effective. I’ve said (granted on the first page, so it’s easy to have been forgotten) that not all parents should spank, nor is it appropriate for all kids. But in certain cases, it’s absolutely appropriate and effective for both the parents and the kids.

It’s even nicer of you to completely ignore that spanking of one’s wife for discipline is considered domestic violence/abuse by pretty much anyone with the moral fortitude of a spoon and yet you think it’s different when done to a child.

Really? I find it hard to believe a one-off spanking would qualify as domestic abuse. Very likely, any domestic violence/abuse expands far beyond a simple spanking.

However, a child can’t consent that way, now can they?

No, but I’d imagine many children, if they had a plethora of punishments to choose from for their action, would choose a spanking since it’s A) quick B) immediate and C) short-lived. Maybe that’s just me, but young issendorf would rather have had a spanking than losing, say, TV for a week.

Please tell me why it isn’t okay for a husband to spank his wife when she misbehaves according to his view, then tell me how it’s somehow justified to spank a child for the exact same reason.

I’ve said, if couples want to use a spanking as discipline on each other, I don’t have a problem with that.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Spanking: yea or nay. -- Now expanded to include: How humanity uses physical force to ensure desired compliant behavior.

What is the difference between a spank that the pain lasted five minutes and a slap on the face that the pain lasted five minutes and there was no physical harm other than pain?

Apart from the increased pain? Nothing. However, the amount of pain caused by a slap in the face is too much for me to tolerate and the potential to cause lasting damage is far, far higher than a traditional spanking.

A child being made to apologize. Not giving your child everything they ask for. Enforcing certain policies like not being allowed to eat two dozen cookies. Having them do chores/learn various skills even if they may not want to. Reprimanding them verbally for a wrongdoing but not doing anything other than scold. Do I need to continue? I wouldn’t consider any of the above to be a punishment, although they could be part of a punishment if so devised.

You may not consider those punishments, but they are. All those outcomes are essentially negative retribution for an action. You may have a different definition of punishment, but if we’re using the English language as our benchmark, then all those are in fact punishments.

Did you watch Karma’s video?

Unless he made the OP, I’ve stopped reading his posts altogether. Apart from that, I don’t watch videos that are posted – I much prefer to read. Care to give me a recap and I can respond to that?

I would like to point out that the definition is also not the important part here. It’s that you’re trying to justify using physical pain to control a child.

Of course the definition matters because that goes to what I am and am not supporting. You want to conflate spankings with child abuse when they are two separate things entirely. The more this conversation goes on, the more I’m starting to realize you’re never going to be willing to acknowledge that.

A socially sanctioned beating on a child’s bottom in order to dominate them into submission by using violence and fear.

You’re being overly dramatic.

Please tell me why the below isn’t okay, then tell me how it’s somehow justified when it’s to a child instead.

That’s nice you cut out the very next statement that says, “Today, spanking of an adult tends to be confined to erotic spanking between people engaging in other intimate activities, such as foreplay or sexual roleplay.” Essentially, the practice you quoted is also said to be incredibly rare.

Now, to your example, assuming we’re talking about the mild type of spankings that I’m discussing, I have no problem with a husband spanking his wife or a wife spanking his husband.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Spanking: yea or nay. -- Now expanded to include: How humanity uses physical force to ensure desired compliant behavior.

They also aren’t harmed from a smack across the face where the pain lasted what, 5 minutes?

From personal experience, I can tell you the pain being slapped across the face lasts far longer than a spanking. I draw the line at spanking because it causes too much pain, just as I don’t condone using a belt.

Discipline =/= punishment.

What’s an example of discipline that doesn’t involve a punishment?

And yes, they can fear the parent. Fearing the person who hits you is a pretty normal response.

Again, you’re conflating child abuse with a spanking.

There’s not a clear definition of spanking other than a hit on the rump.

It’s an open palm slap on the ass. That’s a spanking. A close fist hit on the ass is a punch. A hit on the ass with a belt is a lashing, etc. Vocab is tough.

You don’t get to cherry pick a very specific definition of spanking and then say spanking is harmless when that’s not what spanking is.

I’m hardly cherry picking – I’m mentioning the very definition. Spankings, by their definition are meant to cause temporary pain. You’re the one who’s struggling to grasp that.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Spanking: yea or nay. -- Now expanded to include: How humanity uses physical force to ensure desired compliant behavior.

There is no difference between a spanking that leaves no lasting damage and a hit in a different location than the butt that leaves no lasting damage.

As I’ve said, that’s simply not true. You’d prefer (I imagine) to be slapped on the rump than you would across the face. Neither causes lasting damages, but one hurts a helluva lot more.

However, the child is not harmed by this and while the child may get mad at the parent, they will never fear the parent. You will never see a child cowering or shielding their bodies from their parents (who are supposed to protect and love them) from a parent that doesn’t hit them.

They also aren’t harmed from a spanking where the pain last, what, 5 minutes? Losing a toy hurts for far, far longer. You’re completely discounting emotional pain that causes a tremendous amount of trauma in a child who isn’t emotionally developed.

However, the child is not harmed by this and while the child may get mad at the parent, they will never fear the parent.

They don’t fear the parent either with a spanking – they fear the punishment. As you’ve routinely done in this thread, you’re conflating a spanking with child abuse. The strawman is cute, but it isn’t exactly strengthening your argument.

You will never see a child cowering or shielding their bodies from their parents (who are supposed to protect and love them) from a parent that doesn’t hit them.

They’ll instead shield their property from their parents.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Spanking: yea or nay. -- Now expanded to include: How humanity uses physical force to ensure desired compliant behavior.

I’ll again repeat myself that spanking is just a way for parents to bully their children into doing what they want by using violence/fear. You can extend that to teachers if they spank too. That’s all spanking is once you really get down to it. Do what I say or I will hurt you. If people want to call that stance hardline, go ahead. There is no legitimate justification for spanking a child – not for discipline, not for punishment, not for teaching, and certainly not out of “love” or “empathy.”

The problem I have with this argument, that you keep repeating, is that you’re essentially claiming a spanking is unique in this regard – that only a spanking uses fear as a motivator. While the pain aspect is probably unique, all forms of discipline rely on fear. Whether the threat is a spanking or one my Legos is going to be taken away, the fear of pain (in the case of the Legos, it would have caused tremendous mental anguish for young issendorf) is the motivator. The same goes with society. I don’t go more than 5-6 MPH over the speed limit because of the fear of a speeding ticket, as a basic example.

You can argue that a spanking is a less effective means of teaching your children (as someone who doesn’t have kids and isn’t a child psychologist, I’m not in a position to say that’s right or wrong) or perhaps that a spanking is somehow barbaric (it isn’t, imo), but to have the crux of your argument being that spankings are bad discipline because they use fear is absurd. On a personal note, the losing of toys was always far more devastating to me and had me much more, as you would say living in fear, than the threat of a spanking.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Why american soldiers should not be allowed in ukraine?

1. The US is a net-import Nation of Gas.

That is not going to be the case for much longer seeing as we’re about to pass Russia as the world’s largest producer of natural gas and exports are about to go into full effect.

A big chunk of the country is pro-Russian anyway, so it’s hardly fertile soil for western expansionism.

A big chunk is also pro-Europe, or maybe you missed the protests in Kiev were due to Yanokovich rejecting a far-reaching accord with the EU. In fact, outside of Crimea and the far Eastern reaches of Ukraine, the vast majority of the Ukraine wants to be European, not Russian.

Now what else have I got wrong? Also I would be interested in your opinion about Crimea joining Russia. As that is the part of Ukraine that Russia is really worried about, do you think that letting it go would be enough to defuse the situation? Would that be enough for Putin to say that he got what he really wanted and leave Ukraine alone?

The perception (whether accurate or not), especially in Kiev, will be that the Russians fixed the election. Whether or not the majority of Crimeans legitimately want to be part of the Russian Federation, everything I’ve read would indicate that they do. That doesn’t, however, excuse Russia’s aggression and will almost certainly not satisfy Putin. He wants the entire Ukraine.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Why american soldiers should not be allowed in ukraine?

Issen, if you were a European you would probably wonder why the hell Europe should suffer another round of economic misery and widespread power cuts and fuel shortages just to keep Uncle Sham sweet.

Hey, it’s your continent. If you want an unfettered Russia running amok on the East side of your continent, by all means, keep supporting the spineless responses that leaders of Western European nations have already been pushing, as it seems you are.

And anyway, a bit of diplomacy is probably a better start than running full pelt down the sanctions route.


You mean, like what we did after Georgia. That sure worked out well as a deterrent for Putin’s aggression, eh?

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Why american soldiers should not be allowed in ukraine?

The problem the EU has, is 40% of the gas the entire continent uses, comes directly from Russia.

The EU’s reliance on Russian gas is more out of convenience, not necessity. The US is beginning to ramp up our own exports of gas, as well as an expansion of gas from nations like Qatar.

It’s also important that we’re in March, not November, so demand should be less than it would be heading into the spring.

Putin can really seriously screw up the economy of every country in the EU, by turning off the pipes.

It’s going to hurt Russia’s economy far, far more than it will the nations of the EU. Sure, nations like Germany rely on Russia for power, but again, there are other places they can import from. Russia’s economy is entirely petro-based. Without being able to export their resources to Europe, their economy crumbles.

That’s not to say that it won’t have some negative impact on Europe. It seems to me, Putin’s complete violation of the Budapest Memorandum for literally no reason, there must be something that should be done. Sanctions, were I a European, seem like a far better punishment than combat.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Why american soldiers should not be allowed in ukraine?

I don’t see the US trying to set up a vassal kingdom with Ukraine as the newest state. It’s ludicrous. I’m sure they’re happy to seed some amicable trade, but I think the US knows it is having a shitty enough time trying to get domestic affairs in order without invading eastern Europe.

You don’t have to invade Russia. You know what you can do to solve the problem:

1) Restrict access of Russian banks to Western markets.

2) Freeze assets of Russian bureaucrats in Western banks.

3) Trade relationships with Russia should immediately be reconsidered.

Will the US’s doughy foreign policy and the spineless members of the EU be able to muster the courage to implement these sanctions? Stay tuned.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Spanking: yea or nay. -- Now expanded to include: How humanity uses physical force to ensure desired compliant behavior.

BUTT, is spanking without merit?

It certainly has merit. It’s not appropriate for every child, but for some it’s absolutely appropriate. I’m quite amused this is even a topic of debate, tbh.

Spanking is for parents who do not care to teach their children a lesson other than making mistakes is wrong and results in pain if that mistake is discovered.

Most parents don’t spank because a kid made a mistake. They spank because they’re being horrible… repeatedly. Once they do the same thing over and over, and the parents have tried to tell them not to do that, that it’s bad to do that, etc. then it’s no longer a mistake, it’s a conscious decision by the child to do it regardless of whether or not his/her parents accept it.

Smacking them on the butt isn’t any different than smacking them anywhere else.

Of course it is. Which would you rather have happen: a smack on the rear, or a smack across your face? Or in your groin? I have a pretty good feeling what the answer is.

Being too scared to do anything isn’t any better than doing the bad thing in the first place for a child.

As someone who was spanked with a wooden spoon back in the day, I can assure you I wasn’t too scared to do anything. It gave me a clear definition of the boundaries that I could operate within.

Just as an adult I prefer definitive answers, apparently so did the child version of me as I had definitive answers of what and wasn’t allowed.

There are other ways to discipline that don’t resort to physically dominating a child with pain or fear.
It’s a parent’s job to raise their kid, not beat them into submission.

A spanking =/= child abuse.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / When Does A Human Life Begin?

Why must 1/3 of abortion clinics close because of a .00001% chance of death?

1) There are other outcomes other than “Clean Abortion” and “Death.”

2) Not all medical incidents are reported (how many aren’t is, obviously, impossible to say) so your stat is inherently flawed. Someone who’s performing an illegal abortion (likely later in the term when it’s more likely something will go wrong) aren’t going to report said botched abortion to the authorities.

Yeah, it’d be great if parents actually parented. But when you have crap like parents not teaching their kids about science, denying them medicine and going with herbal remedies and prayer, telling them to just not have sex, not having them vaccinated, and all sorts of other things, it’s a problem.

Ah yes, we need the almighty government to come to the rescue. Our proverbial knight in shining armour.

Not teaching them instead of letting them wonder about details and feelings they have and confusing themselves or making mistakes because of it in the name of “innocence” is ridiculously irresponsible and stupid.

No doubt you have a wealth of personal child-rearing experience needed to make that claim (and before you post some study defending your point that all our children will be better off if we teach them about sexual intercourse at the age of 11, I can just as easily produce something that counters it, so let’s not waste each other’s time with that step, shall we).

Legalizing abortion actually did have a drastic effect on crime rates. When abortion was legalized, crime rates abruptly began to drop 20ish years afterwards.

I personally think it had more do with the “Wild Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act of 1971 (since we’ giving credit for laws producing societal change 25 years after the fact).”

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Topic: Serious Discussion / When Does A Human Life Begin?

You must see my point though, because you didn’t say anything else.

It’s a really invalid reason because we have already required automakers to spend millions of dollars to make safer cars (safety standards, doncha know) and are now doing it with fuel efficiency standards.

This ridiculous puritan notion that it’s wrong to know about sex is quite frankly stupid and irresponsible.

And if parents want to teach their kids about sex at the ripe old age of 7, you know what they can do? They can teach them! Imagine that – allowing the parent to step up to the plate.

Likewise, it’s not a puritan notion – it’s the notion of letting a kid be a kid rather than accelerating them through childhood as quickly as possible.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / When Does A Human Life Begin?

Should we require automakers to spend millions of dollars to create ultrasafe cars that it’s nearly impossible to die in?

We’re actually requiring them to create less-safe cars because omg global warming.


When does obstruction become prevention, when does duress become control? What are the motives, the consequences? The idea that so long as an act is technically possible, as relates to our freedoms, it counts, is a spooky one.

There’s no hard and fast rule. Depending on the act, we’re willing to tolerate quite a bit. In order to board a plane, you can make a compelling argument that TSA is bypassing our Fourth Amendment right, yet the fuss regarding it is pretty muted. Now, compared to something like free speech which we, for the most part, value quite highly, we’re not willing to sacrifice nearly as much.

I think as long as a regulation can be shown to have a compelling reason other than simply blocking an act, then it can have merit. While there are doubtless many people who want these regulations in order to limit the number of abortions, there are other compelling reasons as well for these regulations that go beyond simply obstruction.

I think that may be a bit of a dated benchmark. I’m assuming we both agree that the goal for sex education is to, well, educate about sex before sexual activity. I’d suggest mandatory sexual education at roughly the age of sexual maturation. I don’t think we should be withholding vital health information to it’s most relevant parties to pursue a moral agenda based on obfuscation and ignorance of the body.

Fair enough – I was just sort of throwing it out there. If we want to make it 7th grade, fine.

What I had in mind are the stories of kindergarteners being taught sex-ed and the parents are required to opt-out. It’s the extreme example, but I think there should be a gray zone (perhaps 12-14 or so) where schools can either have it or not if they wish. Earlier, they can (but they must require an opt-in) and later (probably should be an opt-out provision).

I don’t care zilch about potential humans personally, I feel as bad about early abortions as I do about antibacterial soap or if a butterfly is going to start a hurricane.

Not universal, no, but the overwhelmingly majority of this country do see some value (otherwise, the number of people who support abortion at any time would be much higher) meaning there’s no real compelling reason to not have that burden.

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Topic: Serious Discussion / When Does A Human Life Begin?

Leafing through it, there seems to already be requirements in place that an abortion facility have a place to receive ambulances, trained personnel, emergency services, a surgical area, blood on standby for transfusions, etc. In other words, it’s unnecessary to require them to be an arbitrary distance from a hospital. They’re already held to standards capable of treating emergencies.

All the ones that deal with the things you listed say they were amended to be effective January of 2014 – meaning that they include the new bill. I can’t see where it differentiates which are part of the ‘09 bill and which are part of the new bill. For all I know, all those regulations you mention are only included because of the new bill (unless I’m missing something?).

Still think it’s unsafe?

How many times do you need me to concede that it’s not dangerous?

I’m just arguing for a safety plan when something goes wrong. You’ve won be over on the 30 mile radius thing being unnecessary, but not on the rest (yet).


I’ll get to you tomorrow Ung!

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Topic: Serious Discussion / When Does A Human Life Begin?

Yeah, because our adoption program isn’t already overburdened. The overflow of babies, cost of medical care, and conditions would be horrendous, and would have serious implications for our school systems and population growth. Not to mention other effects too.

That’s true of orphanges. It isn’t true, from my family’s experience at least, when the baby is adopted at the time of birth. The adoption agency that my sister adopted my nephew from had to close because they didn’t have enough babies. They are looking to adopt their third and are essentially in competition with about 7 other families because, again, of the baby shortage. Families are much more interested in adopting when the child is still a baby which would apply in all of these scenarios.

I’m still seeing this as a personal rights things before that point, though I’d likely waive it if we had the ability to realistically deal with the abandoned children…

No, I’m sorry, you don’t have the right to order that your fetus be killed even if it’s viable outside the womb. That’s why abortion doctors have been convicted of murder for killing viable fetuses. You got an abortion of a viable fetus – you’ve had plenty of “personal rights.”

So how can you keep asserting that these clinics don’t have the ability to deal with serious complications?

Because those were the arguments made by state legislators in defense of the bill. You’re the one insinuating they’re liars – I’m the one who has to prove they aren’t liars? That’s not how the burden of proof works, I’m sorry to say.