Recent posts by Orakio on Kongregate

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Topic: Reactor idle / New heat cell maps.

Originally posted by lronEyes:

when im at ur point ill start thinking about using wps on main ;)

Not sure how that will work. Seems ambitious. But of course, now it must be attempted…

EDIT Not sure how the math works out. The ML build I’m using has 176 gens. You can only put 10 more WP than on the HC maps. I leveled pipe a few times, tinkered with placing batteries, I can only get around 50-60% of what I was getting with 8:4:1:2 build, unless i wanted to spend all my current savings, which wouldn’t really prove any point.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / NEW STUFF

I was happy to see an update, and still interested to see how the new features are going to work in the big update. And I realize no dev is obligated to keep pumping out new game features, so it’s definitely appreciated. :)

It would’ve been nice to also get some sort of boost in progress for us late game people, though. Up until you get to Protactium, you always had something to look forward to getting to help you speed up progress. I’ve been playing the same grind now for probably most of the time I’ve played. It’s just getting slower and slower, saving days for a round of upgrades, taking weeks for gains to pay off upgrade costs.

I’m 6th on all time ticks played, and I’m still not using curiom on anything but SHC. Lowering the cost to place it is helpful, but newer people still don’t need to unlock it faster. Lowering the research cost of curiom and adding a new cell that’s much higher than curiom, without adding any upgrade to other existing features to help late game progress are disappointing changes to the people who have played the longest.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Share your City build! :D

Yeah, for city I’m still going with Iron’s build. I tried them all and went back to Jonnu’s on ML because the lack of ISO really hurt with the same amount of cells.

On City, the extra cells help offset that, but I think the extra ISO will still hurt enough to go back to the old build once upgrades get really high for Prots. For right now though, the 2 extra levels of cell on Iron’s are worth it to me to get .4q more with less pipe.

And if I wanted to split the difference, I can lower cell once and raise ISO to 17 on Iron’s build and still make .12q more.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / New heat cell maps.

Originally posted by lronEyes:

with pipes that high pipes cost more than pumps, dont see how thats worth the 25% more water ur makin

Nah, pipe level equal to WP or 3 levels above GWP is still less cost than pump for next upgrade.

Not sure how worth it it is. I guess that just depends on the build that requires it. Everything is super expensive for me now. I’m open to small changes for small gains that come before saving up 10’s of sextillions for the next round of upgrades. I’m also not huge on constantly calculating ROI for upgrades tho.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Water pumps vs Ground water pumps

Originally posted by Wulfston1:

You can direct water from GWP’s much easier then you can from regular water pumps.

That doesn’t matter so much as WP can only be placed by the water, and automatically move water to whatever gen touches it. Using GWP you have to come up with a more elaborate layout plan, and take extra space to direct your flow, and the further your water flows, the more pipe you need.

Originally posted by Lechter5:

another thing to consider is more gens in WP build (52 max with no circ) while in GWP you can get to 48 max, with a decenterlized UHP build.

The comparison isn’t which is better to use in a ring around the outside. Obviously WP wins in that comparison, as they put out more water for less upgrade cost and act as their own pipe. The comparison is which is better to use on a 1/4/8HC map bewteen a ring of WP, or a different layout with GWP, which can have well over 100 pumps.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / New heat cell maps.

Originally posted by GrosJohnny:

GWP 31 and pipes 34
That’s the issue, I need high level pipes or else kaboom

That’s still on par with a WP build tho. You need about 3 less levels in WP to make more water, and I’ve had pipes within a level or two. Using circs on the WP build, I’m currently at 36 WP/pipe, which is about the same as 3 lvls higher than GWP.
 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Water pumps vs Ground water pumps

It will change the outcome some, as would adding in the cost of upgrading UHPs.

Iron had estimated before that 64 WP were better than 100 GWP, so I’m guessing it’d be somewhere between 2:3 and 1:2.

But the extra space used by pipes, and extra levels of pipes needed when connecting more pumps to one gen is what keeps wp ahead longer.

Thanks for all the effort in the graphics. :)

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / New heat cell maps.

Still mixed on the variations. Some of the results of testing just have to do with which build you’re upgraded for. If you posted a build with upgrades, and I loaded my cheat save and tried the WP build with the upgrades you posted, it’d probably fail. Just as loading any of these builds with my current WP upgrades makes them fail. But it does seem like there are some GWP builds with the potential to be better.

On 4HC, using the regular WP ring build with lvl 36 pump, I’m currently getting 1.27q. I can get 1.34q using the 18 circulator version, but I have to add a level of pipe to go up one ISO.

Trying Johnny’s 2nd build with 33 GWP and 10 Circ (essentially making it a 32:12:1 build), other upgrades equal, the best I can do is 1.21q. Add in another level of GWP and I can get the same 1.34q without raising gen upgrades, but adding another level of GMW I’m able to get 1.41q without raising GWP again.

I have less to upgrade with the WP-ring build, and it’s cheaper to upgrade to max output per WP level, but I get the least with it per pump level against some of the other good builds. To me, the closeness of most of them makes me want to just stick with WP ring if no other reason than simplicity. I’m making the same on all 3 HC maps, using the same build, just with cheaper cell costs on 4/8 with a 4-cell diamond in the middle.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Single heat cell map

Originally posted by Baumstumpf:

Orak – you can remove like half the heat-exchangers in your build.
And as i said the picture is of the build that i use till now, nearly as efficient, but mostly used for the huge amount of space i could use for offices.
Made a new design now based on the previous, with the inside housing some extra gens.
But gotta see how many upgrades are needed and how it works.
So far i get 130t, but need to tweak it a bit more, cause for those 13% extra income i currently have 32% higher costs.

Yeah, you don’t need them all, but I’ve long since stopped using offices. I’ve tweaked mine a little since this pic. If you position batteries or whatever properly in the middle you can reduce stress on middle pumps enough for another level of ISO. But still better results this way, and cheaper, no matter how many EH in the middle, than what I got with UHP build.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / New heat cell maps.

I tried to do a couple different 18:6 builds with not much luck. Where I’m at, I have to use ISOs, But something like this could work for a bit once I decide to change to curiom. Still, even when you don’t “need” ISO, they are useful to get the most optimal output from each level of cell. No time to try this one out. Lotta hours this week.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Four heat cell builds

Originally posted by dirtyourface10:
Originally posted by Orakio:

there’s already a thread for new heat cell maps.

Can you link it?

Here, also at the top of the new post lists.
 
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Topic: Reactor idle / New heat cell maps.

Originally posted by GrosJohnny:

Oh I’m sorry I didn’t realise we were allowed to state things without evidence and treat people like garbage. I’ll do that too then.

Hey guys I just found the most perfect design for 4HC. But you don’t get to see it. It’s the best one and it’s a fact. If you don’t believe me then you can’t read.

Posted again personal test on the other thread. The ring of WP can handle more heat than Baum’s build with the same upgrades… If you want to challenge results of a test, test yourself. You don’t disprove a claim with sarcasm.
 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Single heat cell map

Originally posted by Baumstumpf:

Barry – i think tomorrow i will shatter your delusions once and for all, but right now i need my money for the next mainland upgrade :)
Be warned, from the first rough estimates i will generate roughly the same as you do now – with far lower total upgrade-costs :)

Nobody is being delusional but you. You just need to try out something and see if someone else might be right. Now that I’m home from work and have a few minutes to play, I made it easy for you to see the comparison.

I loaded cheat save to have money, and because the new maps on it will not have been touched. I leveled the map to what you posted earlier were your upgrades. Then I raised Prot and inlet one level, and lowered ISO to 13. I took the following picture right before it blew up, your build unable to handle 103t.

Upgrades.

Now, the other build by Ironeyes. Without changing anything at all from the above picture other than raising ISO, you can see that this build handles more heat that your build.

I’m not passing opinion as fact. I did test this previously with my old build, and I’ve tested again with your upgrades here. I’m not being delusional nor is Barry. And the build is way better than “horrible at best.” If you doubt the legitimacy of these pics, then I suggest anyone interested in this debate just simply go and try it yourself with whatever upgrades you have.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / New heat cell maps.

Originally posted by GrosJohnny:

Oh I’m sorry I didn’t realise we were allowed to state things without evidence and treat people like garbage. I’ll do that too then.

Hey guys I just found the most perfect design for 4HC. But you don’t get to see it. It’s the best one and it’s a fact. If you don’t believe me then you can’t read.

But it’s only those arguing against the simple build who are doing that. I tested it on my game and found it better. But you can see the build and you can try it yourself as I did. Facts are facts regardless if you have seen the evidence first hand. Just test it before insulting like the other guy was.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Single heat cell map

Originally posted by Baumstumpf:
Originally posted by Orakio:

You just stated you’re both limited by pumps. Then you claim you can double your income by sacrificing offices. That’s only possible is your current production is gimped by your use of offices, in which case anyone not using offices is better off than you.

No, what i said and mean is – that with our both designs, we are limited by the water production of the pumps at the outside.
But with the design i’m using i have the space to place GWPs too to produce more water and make more money – if so desired. And cause of the cost-scaling of water production for both pumps, a lower-grade GWP are more cost-efficient than one more Pump-upgrade.

When you build a layout using WP outer and GWP inner that out-performs Iron’s build for little cost difference, let us know.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / New heat cell maps.

Originally posted by GrosJohnny:
Originally posted by Orakio:
Originally posted by Baumstumpf:

Yeah yeah barry – keep being angry :P

Other will just make far better builds than yours and keep progressing faster =)

But others aren’t far better. Go to SHC thread and dispute points made there. UHP are unnecessary. Tested fact.

Most saying otherwise are arguing on first impression. Try the build.

As to the new version with Circs, I haven’t found them worthwhile yet.

Please stop calling thing facts without proper proof.
What I mean by proper proof is the “income to total investment” ratio (see my posts on the mainland thread). Until we see that number, what you are showing are only opinions

If you had read what I posted on the SHC thread you would know that I’m not just stating opinion as fact.

By changing from Shadawn’s old build that I’ve shown earlier in the SHC thread to the new simple layout we’re debating, I was able to get better results.

You don’t need UHP to have a good build and crapping on a build just for not using them is ignorant.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Single heat cell map

All you really have to do to know, is try the other build with your uprades and see which gives you more for less…all the bickering and name calling is as u necessary as UHP and offices. :p

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Single heat cell map

Originally posted by Baumstumpf:

Already updated my post – but great way to show just how stupid you are.
Your conversion is limited by how much water you can produce.
With only normal pumps i have half the map empty and can use offices there to get some base income for replace-costs and never worry about running out of money.

And simple math shows you that you can not, under any circumstance, convert more than i do, simply cause we both are limited by the number of pumps we have at the outer line.
Unless you want to use GWP to push your income. Btw – i could easily double the income of my setup by sacrificing the offices – can you? :P

You just stated you’re both limited by pumps. Then you claim you can double your income by sacrificing offices. That’s only possible is your current production is gimped by your use of offices, in which case anyone not using offices is better off than you.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Single heat cell map

Originally posted by Baumstumpf:
Originally posted by BarryMc:

I tweaked Ironeyes’ layout a little since the new update added Circulators. It will be easy to modify this for FHC and EHC as well.

Why does anybody think that is a good idea? It is horrible at best.
Get rid of all the exchangers and use UHP. Now you have half the map free and still produce the same energy – either use some offices or place more gens/pumps for more power.

I explained pretty well why it IS a good build compared to the other one many of us were using.

There’s nothing else to put in the space. Offices are obsolete by the time you’re making good use of SHC and UHP are not necessary.

Originally posted by GrosJohnny:
Originally posted by BarryMc:

It isn’t horrible, but by all means feel free to just ignorantly dismiss it. Even with 8 inlets UHP gets expensive. With this layout I don’t have to upgrade UHP at all. If you bothered reading Orakio’s post or having a little common sense then you might understand why this is far more efficient than UHP layouts. It’s hilarious that you call this horrible and recommend using offices instead. Show me what your layout and upgrades are and then we’ll see what’s really horrible.

“Having a little common sense” makes me say that filling 80% of the map with exchangers, just to avoid upgrading UHP, is a huge waste.
I know how expensive UHP upgrades are: still less than pumps and gens upgrades.

Only thing I changed in my comparison was more pipes and UHP in the old build. No way this one is more expensive.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / New heat cell maps.

Originally posted by Baumstumpf:

Yeah yeah barry – keep being angry :P

Other will just make far better builds than yours and keep progressing faster =)

But others aren’t far better. Go to SHC thread and dispute points made there. UHP are unnecessary. Tested fact.

Most saying otherwise are arguing on first impression. Try the build.

As to the new version with Circs, I haven’t found them worthwhile yet.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Four heat cell builds

there’s already a thread for new heat cell maps.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / New heat cell maps.

I just used my latest shc build and went with this build for now on 4hc.

My SHC and 4HC now both make 1.18q. The only difference in upgrades is 4HC is 6 lower Prot and 1 lower ISO than SHC. Which is good because prot is my most expensive upgrade now on SHC. About to change it over to curiom.

I tried a couple different things, but it’s hard to even out more water and gens with an isolated ratio build in the space provided. I also tried this same build with alternating level 10 Circs, but couldn’t quite get the same amount before a gen would blow. Doesn’t seem worth it to me to spend extra on more pipe and Circ to be able to get the same as this build.

I’m off to bed, no more time to tinker for now.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Single heat cell map

I’ve been using this last design for a few days. I’m kinda surprised nobody has commented on it yet. I showed it to people in room 1 game chat and it was met with the same kind of hesitation I had at a first glance.

But the main thing people forget with Shadawns build is just how low the GMW is. You have 88 gens with less than .75 pumps each. With 5 GMW levels, which is affordable due to how low it is, you can get the same water conversion with 1/3 the number of gens.

This build still has more than 1/2 the gens of the other, with more than 1 pump each (about .5 pumps per Gen more than the other).

I leveled them both up to handle 1.28q where one more level of ISO would make either explode and the old build needed 2 more levels of pipe and level 37 Inlet transfer. Both of which then cost more to uprade again than GMW.

So it’s cheaper, simpler, and the gains from getting more out of each gen far outweigh the loss of additional gens with low GMW.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Run for Continent, improved builds

Originally posted by BarryMc:

Petty neat layouts. It’s especially impressive how even the heat distribution is on SHC without any UHP. I’m still not sure if it’s more efficient than the layout that Orakio posted earlier. The question is: does having to level GMW more compensate for not having to level anything UHP related?

And the answer is, I’m using this one now as well. It’s significantly cheaper, and definitely simpler.

I was making 600-700t and now I’m over 1q now on SHC using new design, and all I’ve upgraded is 1 level of WP and 5 levels of GMW.

I swapped in the old build on a different tab and got them pretty evened out at 1.28q. With lvl 16 Prot, lvl 14 ISO and same level GMW, both builds blow with one more level of ISO. The old build requires level 37 inlet transfer and 2 more levels of pipe to handle it. That puts the cost of next UHP transfer and water pipe each more than the cost of next level GMW. So there’s no way that more pipes and less GMW could do more or be more cost effective.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Mainland build

The numbers I gave above in my personal trial were at GWP 33 and 34. The hardest part about being precise in comparison, is that we all have different levels of other components and no way to delevel everything and conveniently try different combinations. My current upgrades are inefficiently focused on maximizing water utilization rather than ROI, cause that’s just what I felt like doing. And It’d take me a week or more to raise certain upgrades up to balance my build to be closer to what many others are doing.

ISO are cheap, so at first it kinda makes sense to level them up. But they’re not the most useful until your cell upgrades become really expensive, and they can actually prevent you from being able to upgrade your cell ASAP and make a little extra. So for others, based on what I found in swapping builds, I’d probably recommend turning ISO way down and optimizing without them, then add what you can with them to use up any extra water you have.

And in either build, if you’re at a point where you have to raise gen eff along with GMW in order to handle the cell upgrade, you can lower ISO to be able to raise cell with just GMW until you can afford another gen eff and raise ISO back up.

@ perlorat: disagree about the lower reactor advantage. in order to get more money out of 6:2 build in my test, I had to level cell higher. The whole advantage of 6:2 is that you can get more water, thus cell level, out of the same level of GWP. The big disadvantage is that you have to buy more GMW to do so.