Recent posts by deathvonduel on Kongregate

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Topic: Reactor idle / Builds: Efficient Reactor Designs

3: need comma between early stage and shc, because it’s not “early stage shc”, shc wp 4ever
1. I’m using uhp for a bit in SHC, not because of heat balance, but because it opens a large chunk of land in the middle for office/bank. Due to my own stupidity and greed(in upgrade), sometimes I don’t have enough cash on hand and my cells halt in the middle of the night due to lack of upkeep, this helps a bit. Thou due to the way office scales, this is not viable for curium so i’ll ditch it eventually.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / * * * Bugs * * *

Originally posted by mapesken:

thought that was only for pipes

it also affect WP and GWP max water, WP and GWP cannot produce more water than their max water.
At the same time, if u were using pipes, the amount of water that can pass through it depends on the max water of the pipe, and if it’s undersupplied.
also, there is the matter of “water pressure”, if your WP/GWP have lower max water than the generator, then the generator might not get all the water because the other end isn’t high enough, pipe is balancing element only
so long story short, WEM is important

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / New heat cell maps.

Originally posted by wapnoziom:

it is worth to use gwp o ehc, you will get more from that with the same cost

what should be the WEM in terms of GWP on this?
The lower right corner blew up for me at +2, was stable on +3.
I tweaked it to be stable with +2 with 99.36 water utilization, I’m wondering if that’s actually stable on +1 and I just missed something

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / * * * Bugs * * *

turn off auto then turn it back on. sometimes the auto trigger does not display properly and it might actually be off.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Component Scaling Guide

Originally posted by Lechter5:
Originally posted by deathvonduel:

On a side note, lv2900 windmill is better than all other power source of the same upgrade cost. Fact is, windmill scales faster than the 1.25/1.78 cells in term of power:cost ratio. Granted, because power scale much faster, the saving in the water/generators are insignificant at that point…

are you saying windmill starting to get better at lvl 2900? because that level can’t be reached, and I doubt the numbers for it actually exists in the coding. a lvl 600 windmill upgrade costs ~5e270, while a 64 bit integral caps at e19 i think?

what made you think it’s an integer? I’ve seen saves that goes to e50s to prove it’s not. It’s probably a integer for the significant digits and then another for the e, like how double works. so it can go to e2^31

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Component Scaling Guide

This is very hard to read, I’d rather it be grouped by scaling.
Also, it’s VERY important to note that circulator and isolation are linear growth as opposed to compounding. Now, they are the only ones whose scale is a % value as opposed to a multiply factor larger than 1, but never underestimate people’s ability to get confused.

On a side note, lv2900 windmill is better than all other power source of the same upgrade cost. Fact is, windmill scales faster than the 1.25/1.78 cells in term of power:cost ratio. Granted, because power scale much faster, the saving in the water/generators are insignificant at that point…

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Builds: Efficient Reactor Designs

Originally posted by n_skid11:

@deathvonduel
There are holes in your logic, for one you require max water upgrades regardless of what your using, if your using GWP at all then they need to be a higher level than if your just using WPs. So there cost in a mixed system verse a GWP only system is cancelled out. Secondly the efficiency of how I’m using the water has nothing to do with the choice to use WP or GWP, it’s a design fault in the layout not taking into account a bug in the game. The layout assumes water to be balanced IE distributed evenly among the system, the game isn’t coded that way and the bottom right quarter is water staved, changing HOW I make the water will not fix this issue. Your comments regarding circulator and things are fair and my plan was not to upgrade them for a while anyway.



Total cost:
Cell: 1 quint eff, 5 quint life=6 quint
circulator: 3.1 quint
WEM: ~32 quint
GWP: ~343 quint
GWM: ~192 quint
iso: 5.55 quint
(excuse the heat outlet, that’s not relevant)
Total: 6+3.1+32+343+192+5.55=581.65 quint
Production 587.25 tri

Your build:
WP: 125 quint
WEM: 128 quint
GWP: 171 quint
GMW: 280 quint
circulator: 150-10 quint (-10 quint, for dropping circulator and upping GMW for optimization)
cell: 60-30=30 quint (I realized that you can reduce this cost, probably, by upping iso instead, 3 higher iso for 55.5T will require 1 lower level of cell, which costed over 30 quint)
iso: too low to care
total: 125+128+171+280+140+30=874 quint
Even if you had used 100% of your water, fact is you are making less money (1.302×400=520.8 T) and paying more.
Edit: forgot the 78T saving on upkeep, you only need to produce 509T to be as good as the 6:2:1. Good luck balancing water for that, as it current stands you are still producing less for higher cost.
Yes, max water is required regardless of build, my point is simply that 6:2:1 require LESS upgrade than your build (as shown in picture, that is stable with lower upgrade)

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / When is the third Research Center unlocked?

it’s the same cost as curiom, which means it’s only good for 4 researches, curiom, balduranium and their managers. And yes, I’d get R3 before curiom, chances are with R3 the time to "recollect“ the 125 is going to be significantly shorter than getting it the first time. Still… just 4 upgrades, and even slightly delaying curiom (about same for curiom manager I’d guess), so it only really speed up 2…. not the most useful thing….

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Builds: Efficient Reactor Designs

Originally posted by evilkellan123:

I see everyone here uses batteries, I don’t use batteries most of the time, only if my offices can’t sell my power, which happens rarely, also I have not used boilers and sinks, because I make more money by just using generators.

Office sells 2x for 10x price each step, at the high end you can’t keep that up (everything else grow roughly 2x for 3.5x-4x price), that’s why we switch to batteries, which is 2x for 2x price, eventually becoming next to nothing in the grand scale of things.

@n_skid
you are also sinking money into water elem max water, together with WP, this will be enough for an extra level of GWP. Specifically, 6:2:1 build is sustainable with WEM=GWP+1, so the last 3 levels of WEM would not be needed, those 3 levels cost over 100 quint of the 128 quint or so total. together with the total cost of WP, which is around 125 quint, it’s way more than the 171.8 quint of GWP next level

174 GWP from 29×6:2:1 at 1 level higher than 5.75B each is 1500B water(5.75*1.5*174).

You claim to generate 1302.56B water, but your power is only 411.99T, this is only 79% utilization, using barely over 1T water. Now, some waste are expected, but in 6:2:1 build, it’s usually under 5-10%, mine ML is currently at 98.27%. Unused water is as good as no water

So you are actually missing out on almost 50% water usage compared to 6:2:1, in other words, >150T per tick worth of income (1500B at 95% utilization is 570T, 570-412=158)
25 extra cell of 5.04 quad replacement cost will cost a bit over 125 quad per “cycle”. Given the lifetime 1 you have, this is 78T per tick
So, for the same amount of total investment, you are missing out on 80T per tick of NET income.
And you would save 125+100-171=50 quint of cash on the water system and a tiny bit(relatively speaking) on cell upgrade.

As it were, you need to up water utilization to 1230B actual(94.43%) to beat 95% 6:2:1 (1230*400+78000=570000). If we consider 98% or higher 6:2:1 like mine, you’d need over 1275B actual water usage(97.88%)
Network like yours is hard to get high utilization as it will likely require even higher WEM, which is money thrown to the wind.

Also, another issue, your circulator is irrationally high. Circulator does not grow compound, it’s (60+(15*lv))%. This means the increase from, for example, 6 to 7 is from 150% to 165%, or for each adjacent generator, from 250% to 265%, a 6% increase. On the other hand, GWM growth is compounding, 25% extra is just that, 25%.
To justify the 6 to 7 upgrade of 85.77 quint, the GWM must cost over 4x(6% increase vs 25% increase) that much, or 340 quint. In your metro, your circulator is lv 7 while GWM is only 139.47 quint, you are throwing money to the wind.
3 level lower circulator (lv4) would have saved you ~146 quint, for 120% instead of 165% increase. an extra GMW cost about the same, we would have 1.25*(1+1.2) instead of 1+1.65 water, or 2.75 instead of 2.65: you gain 3.77% water for 6 quint less.
Alternatively, 2 level lower circulator and 1 higher GMW, 13 quint more cost, 2.9375 instead of 2.65, a 10.85% increase.
Considering that you are using 32 gens instead of 58 gens, even if the 58 gens use up 50% more water in total, it’s 58:48 ratio. which, as it happens, will actually be roughly 2 level circulator down from where you are. so if you switch to 6:2:1, you could just not get the extra GWM with lv 5 circulators.
Given that, you are looking at 126 quint in saving.

Overall:
you are losing out on 70-100T per tick of income, you have spend 180 quint or more extra. partly on build, partly on bad circulator:GWM ratio.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / unable to build on certain spots

Despite the name being single “heat” cell, it can only have one producer period, not even extra windmill, which isn’t really a “heat” cell.
also can’t do research….
beyond that, what blimby said

The error is misleading thou, same error when you try to WP on non-costal.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Share your City build! :D

It depends on your iso level. Specifically:
at 19 cells, if each iso is 100%, you have 200%x19=3800% output, an extra iso will make one of the cell 300% instead of 200%, making it 3900%. 39/38=1.026, 0.026=2.6%
Now, the lower your iso, the lower this amount will be. Usually stable iso is somewhere between 50-75% for me, might be higher for you as cell gets higher. at 50%, it’d be 150%x19 vs 150%*18+200%, which is 1.75% increase, and at 75% iso, it’s 2.25% increase.

No it’s too hard to tweak. A generator requires minimal 5 spaces(gen, 3 gwp, 1 pipe), usually more(its own circulator etc) so plot of land is hard to find. I’ve tried to put one in on the lower or upper right corner of metro and failed for +1, thou +2 might work. The concept of extra gen/iso on selected cell might be able to be applied to other sort of build, but I haven’t really tried.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Share your City build! :D

The two pipe isn’t as much of a problem here because ideally there shouldn’t be flow between the two pipes and “two pipe” is only a problem when there is a flow demand between them from what I can see. Each gen here have its own group of 3 GWP that doesn’t go through the two pipes so it should be fine, and I think my test is “tight” enough for it, it would take quite a bit of work to find a higher % water utilization, if you know of one I can try it in the sandbox.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Share your City build! :D

Originally posted by wapnoziom:

without that change which you have made and on corrected build which I just posted I am running on wem +1, is you 2,5% earning enough to payback for extra wem? On my upgrades I need 35days to make this happen, so it is not worth that as I can buy something with shorter payback


now just +1
“proven” by(in sandbox save, cause I can’t afford the tweak on my own):
33 GWP
34 WEM
67 GMW
2 circulator
98 GE
18 iso (95%)
8 protactium
effect:
43.68 B water/GWP
130.06 B/gen (99.25%)
water remaining: 57.37m (0.05737B), Usage: 99.956% in gen, 99.21% produced
no water pressure change during observation (lv 5 life, a few k ticks)
Should be stable
Edit note: filled empty spot & removed unneeded GWP, water pressure on some unit decreased but still stable, also no longer using WP (which was 0, just super pipe)

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / At what points are bonus ticks not worth it?

the truth of the matter is, the dev wants you to be online 24/7, the bonus ticks is just there so they can call it idle game. Chances are, the dev is keeping our computers online so he can mine bit coin with our computers, why else would a simple game like this require hundreds of megahertz of CPU?

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Share your City build! :D

Originally posted by wapnoziom:
Originally posted by deathvonduel:


At the cost of almost half of the batteries, I’ve accomplished my goal.
Thou considering it’s at most 2.5% power increase while effectively requiring 1 battery level extra, it’s only potentially worthwhile if a set of power upgrade(including cell, gwp, water element, gwm) cost 10x that of battery.
Ignore the WP, that’s for all intend and purposes a pipe, just force of habit, I make all coastal pipe into WP

is the wem +1 or +2 to gwp?
one gwp is unnecessary (very clost to wp)

+2 and fixed, must be from when I was tweaking it.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Share your City build! :D

Originally posted by wapnoziom:

It might be a little bit short of space but I will give another try as I failed today, although I changed this build a bit as there was a water problem in left corner


At the cost of almost half of the batteries, I’ve accomplished my goal.
Thou considering it’s at most 2.5% power increase while effectively requiring 1 battery level extra, it’s only potentially worthwhile if a set of power upgrade(including cell, gwp, water element, gwm) cost 10x that of battery.
Ignore the WP, that’s for all intend and purposes a pipe, just force of habit, I make all coastal pipe into WP

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Share your City build! :D

Originally posted by wapnoziom:

I have similar with places for 7 batteries more, there are no water issues

I’m curious, given the cluster of batteries on the right side near center, is it possible to make that tad bit a 9:3:1:2 instead of 6:2:1:1? I’ve tried but can only get 2 GWP to feed the 3rd gen, but I’m not moving around a whole lot.
Granted, that would only work until your iso are lv 19, but for many, that will be quite a while since the cost escalate quickly, 500 sexitillion is no small amount.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / uneven heat distribution heat-outlets

Originally posted by Viivix:

Show the rest of the map and your upgrades and maybe we can work out the cause of this problem.

Heat favors upper right hand corner, when an outlet have 2 or more pipe(system) connected to it and those pipes(system) are not connect to each other, this happens.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Share Metropolis build

Originally posted by Auschil:

As I am converting to this, I noticed something odd.
On the middle right group of 12:4:2, the two gens on the right are fed by 7 gwp, why? It seems sufficiently stable with 6, thou I have yet to push it to maximal efficiency.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Share Metropolis build

you are doing it wrong. For example, if you were to calculate the so called theoretical of 4:8:1 it would would be amazing! However, that would require much more GWP upgrade. Specifically, if you go by what your generator capacity is, 4:8:1 would generate more than 8:8:1, which is more than 8:4:1 which is more than 6:2:1. However, the real issue is the cost, the lower the gwp:gen ratio, the higher the cost. If we consider the cost of fully feeding a 6:2:1 at some generator capacity to be “1”, then 8:4:1 will cost about 1.5, 8:8:1 will cost around 4.5 and 4:8:1 cost around 12! Note this factor is calculated using gen4, gen 3 have significantly lower “growth” as the GWP make up a smaller portion of total cost (specifically, more like 1: 1.2: 2.4: 5 instead of 1: 1.5: 4.5: 12)
So the real question is, does the increase in productivity justify the increase in cost. Take 6:2:1 and 8:4:1 for example, what you get is a ~31% increase in capacity (58 vs 76 gens) for 50% increase in total cost(note total cost take into account ALL previous upgrades) in order to feed said capacity. This is, actually, fairly close to the cost:return ratio of upgrading stuff, so the two build are actually fairly equal in strength. Again, this is g4. For g3, 8:4:1 is strictly better than 6:2:1.
Now, in the long run, GWP does climb faster. But the difference is small enough that it probably won’t be significant until you reach circulator which dramatically change your build anyway (20 level of GWP which is 1 million times price higher later, GWP:max water price will increase merely 10%, a trillion times later 22%). Thou this does mean that perhaps just before circulator, 6:2:1 will outshine 8:4:1 somewhat significantly.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Share Metropolis build

Originally posted by wapnoziom:
Originally posted by deathvonduel:

1. What’s wrong with 8:8:1:1? 8:8:1:1 gen 3 is a good transition before going 8:4:1:1 gen 4(research takes forever). Also, 2:2:1 Fusion becomes prohibitively expensive on cell upgrade as you get to >80B heat per cell. The choice at that point is either 8:8:1:1 thor or 1:1:1 Fusion, the latter really kinda suck. Note that while if gens can handle 40B heat(half of 80B), in theory you can build a 4:4:1 with lv 0 Thor, fact is Lv 0 Thor, even with lv 1 life, is bad return on investment due to rebuild cost, so 8:8:1:1 is superior to 4:4:1
3. Never UPGRADE two kinds of pump, you can use the second type instead of pipe at places for better flow and water management. The second type is just not meant for production is all.

1 If you calculate income generated from 8:8:1:1 minus upkeep compared to old fusion it turned up that fusion is giving more profit(not income!) than new build, that is why you should upgrade water and gen once or twice to run 4:1

3 I dont think you can use efficient wp for better flow and water management as they only can be put on the shore, so it is very low probability that you can have place for hem in build, but why not, I checked on my maps it didn’t change anything

You are right in saying that for the same generator capacity, 57 sets of 2:2:1 fusion will give more net income than 15 sets of 8:8:1:1 thor, this is in fact true until 108B generator capacity.
At that point 4:4:1 requires 32 sets to be better than 8:8:1:1, I have yet to find a 32 set, 29 being most I’ve found, but let’s say 31. (because 30 will always be worse, same output, higher input, worse if less sets. Also, I do believe 31 sets of 4:4:1:1 is not possible)
For 4:4:1 to be better than 8:8:1:1, heat per gen need to be 180B.
And then we have efficiency, matching heat to generator with iso to achieve high efficiency(% of gen capacity) is easy, matching gen to heat using gen effectiveness, on the other hand, can be costly. Furthermore, as I’ve mentioned earlier, Fusion gets expensive. So while the “theoretical” range where 8:8:1:1 is better is only 108-180B, in cost effective practical wise, it might be 80-220B.
Now, if there is a 32 set 4:4:1 build, the story is different, it will lower the point where 4:4:1 is good to 96B “theoretically” and 150B practically.
In any case, gen 3 220B is about where you will get gen 4, so unless 32 set 4:4:1 exist, 4:4:1 gen 3 will never see the light of day. instead, we’d be going into 8:4:1:1 or 8:4:1:2 gen 4 directly.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / City. 1 gwp -> 2 gen. GWP get expensive


4:4:1
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TtNjinO2EUGTikxIEgEReLP9XI1hx1IsPPlOo107oTM/edit
That contains a city 2:2:1, among others, different from the one I used to use but I can’t fine mine anymore.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Share Metropolis build

Originally posted by wapnoziom:
Originally posted by RadrickDaedric:

probably not very optimal but i think this is about as low level of upgrades you can do a viable thorium build on metro

Definitely open to any comments or critiques

1 you should not use thorium if you can not handle it 4 gen to 1 heat cell, stay with previous one and you earn more
2 to many pipes try to use build where there is only 1 pipe per gen (max 2)
3 never use two kinds of pump on one map, your upgrades will cost you too much

1. What’s wrong with 8:8:1:1? 8:8:1:1 gen 3 is a good transition before going 8:4:1:1 gen 4(research takes forever). Also, 2:2:1 Fusion becomes prohibitively expensive on cell upgrade as you get to >80B heat per cell. The choice at that point is either 8:8:1:1 thor or 1:1:1 Fusion, the latter really kinda suck. Note that while if gens can handle 40B heat(half of 80B), in theory you can build a 4:4:1 with lv 0 Thor, fact is Lv 0 Thor, even with lv 1 life, is bad return on investment due to rebuild cost, so 8:8:1:1 is superior to 4:4:1
3. Never UPGRADE two kinds of pump, you can use the second type instead of pipe at places for better flow and water management. The second type is just not meant for production is all.

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Optimisation or 4HC

Originally posted by Apocryphe:

I know my build has a flaw in the long run : the pipes. To carry enough water to the generators, it costs a lot… Also, circulators will be needed at some point…


This might be an easy improvement. Just replace the circled ones with GWP
Specifically, it would be ideal if the 4 of the 5 circled pipes NOT feeding any gen, instead let the WP directly feed them(usually, the game determines where the gen draws water, by doing this, you can force it) GWP functions fine as pipe when between pipes and/or WP, so the chain will function the same otherwise. The middle one is merely because extra water never hurt.
The same can be done with the other 3 groups.
Anything more complicated… well…. good luck with dat…

 
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Topic: Reactor idle / Optimisation or 4HC

Well, WP can be used for SHC before undergrounds, that’s about it. Because for the sake of even heat distribution, your gens pre underground will be near water anyway, so piping is not too horrid. At that stage, GWP will pretty much do the same thing for 2x the cost.
That said, for FHC, you’d can imagine having 4 smaller rectangles, and the center cross shaped borders will be best supplied by GWP. And as upgrading WP AND GWP for similiar production rate is 50% more expensive than just GWP, it’s probably better to just go with GWP alone. For similar reason, once you get underground and can put gens in more optimized location on SHC, switching to GWP would be a good idea.