Recent posts by multifails on Kongregate

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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Lets listen to music instead https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg5E2pCAWKI

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by player_03:

I agree. But that isn’t really Kongregate’s fault. And in fact it isn’t limited to games.

No, not really, just like it isn’t a goverments fault if its businesses do all kinds of fucked up things just to increase their profits and yet (I make the relatively safe assumption that) we both agree that it’s its responsibility to govern the consumer laws. Kongregate is no different in its role as the channel through which these developers interact with players. Both ‘responsibilities’ can also be dismissed through similar arguments (“the consumers makes their choises by themselves and are completely responsible for their choises in that regard”, “its not stupid to sell shit as gold, its stupid to buy it” and all the other cliches that businesses in general would like people to believe in order to justify doing whatever they want.

I don’t claim the above to be perfectly on the spot, just that its a fitting (even if hyperbole) parallel.

• I tentatively accept that it had the effect you described, at least for a month or three.
• I might believe that they intended the effect you described.
• I absolutely would not believe that they willingly waited six months.

And you know what? PvP is a huge deal. PvP makes players play more than normal. PvP keeps players from leaving. PvP can convince non-paying players to buy their first item. PvP makes paying players buy even more.

In short, PvP brings in more money for the developer than “hype for PvP” possibly could.

Exactly. The feature would be ready when it was ready, no amount of promises in any direction would change this, thus the situation is not “promise of pvp vs actual pvp” but “promise of pvp coming soon vs. not” and I think we both agree that a player is more likely to keep playing the game longer and spend money on a game if they believe that an important update is “coming soon” rather than “planned but developement halted at the moment”.

The third bullet point has nothing to do with the issue.

Hype of pvp brings in more money to the developer than not hyping for it ever could (due to all the things you mentioned about players naturally losing interest and such – the developer needs to keep the players engaged with updates if they want to keep them playing longer, but if that cannot happen, hype still increases the time before they naturally leave the game).

That helps, but… if I was going to make an estimate, I’d at least prefer to be able to see a record of the complaints and recount them. I wouldn’t trust my memory on this, and I certainly wouldn’t trust my memory of an estimate I made months ago while annoyed.

:/


It’s good to see that you’re willing to admit it when a prediction turns out wrong. Is it safe to assume that you adjusted your mental estimates accordingly?



Did… did you just try to justify scope insensitivity?

Just saying that I won’t say something is ok just because its done to a smaller number of people. It may affect the methods used to correct the problem, but in this case I do not think the methods I’m proposing have any significant effect on kongregates finances.

I’m also not posting this because of a single event in a single game and I have not recorded every single event where I have observed something similar to it happen just in case I had to argue about it. If you want to use that to dismiss the argument, feel free to, but I’m not one to whine about a problem unless I have a reason to think (like encountering it on a regular basis [my experience] and having a valid reason to believe its intentional to a degree [common behaviour in business when money is involved]).

It’s never effortless. Even if they’ve already written most of the code they need, they still have to do extensive testing to make sure the new feature works correctly. You wouldn’t want it malfunctioning and failing to give a reward that was promised.

But that’s not all. We’re discussing software for moderating humans; the software isn’t the complicated part. Before you can even start on the software, you need to figure out how you’re going to get the humans in question to do what you want.

It’s tougher than it sounds. Incentives often don’t work the way you hope they will.

.
Of course its not something that can just be slapped up in a day and have it miraculously work. Still, we both know this is not a major undertaking for kongregate.

For instance, a second monthly contest would likely not cause developers to try and improve their games. Instead, the games that won the first contest will tend to win the second. And if you disqualify the first ten winners, then the ten runners-up will tend to win. You’ve already commented that players are slow to rate a game down; the same applies in reverse.

I’ll repeat the workings of the proposed 2nd contest: The games that did not win the first one were eligible for it (and only those). They would get the same prize money as the 10th place IF they managed to raise their ratings to that of the 10th game or above. Every one of them could win if they did that, but I would say its safe to say rising a games rating to that of the monthly top10 is a task that only the borderline games can achieve (ie. games that are ’good but not great).

Penalizing developers for lying… well, even if there was a good way to distinguish lying from being honestly mistaken, the developers wouldn’t like it. Kongregate is not the only option they have for distributing their games; they’d at least consider taking their business elsewhere. (Yes, that is a thing that can happen, and Kongregate is not at all happy when it does.)

Same applies to business everywhere, but I do not take it as an argument to allow them to be dicks. I also don’t propose it would be a nazi system where anyone missing their promises of an update by a day, just that they would be held accountable in terms of not using cheap tactics to increase profits (ie. “we were so busy that we could not find the time write 1 line saying ‘the developement of this update is halted due to other issues we’re having’. in fact so busy we couldn’t find the time in 6 months!”. and yes, i like to use this one as an example because of its so absurd). This is also why it requires human moderation instead of cold machine logic (nothing prevents me from proposing a system where the devs have to input features into dates when making promises of updates, being penalized immediately if they missed it by a certain margin. But I don’t, because that too, would be absurd).

Notifying players of updates? Ok, yeah, that one should be fine. Which may be why it already happens.

Blanket updates on the first page (which does not touch games that are fairly new) and a feature in playlist that doesn’t seem to be listed anywhere and not alot of people seem to know about (there are even posts in the forums asking why games they’ve had there pop back into their playlists). I still think there should be a button for that next to the rating buttons (for all intents and purposes, it could put the game into your playlist and not have it show up until it gets an update).



…And this is another reason I prefer to go for the “core” point of disagreement. Otherwise these posts get way too long. Don’t be too disappointed when I go back to short posts.

Just because some say size doesn’t matter doesn’t mean it doesn’t – it has a psychological effect. The saying refers to size not helping if one doesn’t know how to use it :)

Anyway, its ok, I don’t think anything will change based on anything we discuss here regardless of how we do it.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by player_03:

Instead what I’m trying to do is figure out which of our unstated assumptions are in conflict. Because then there’s at least a chance of resolving the argument.

In that case I would propose than the best way to do this would be to ignore the OP at first and begin at the other end of the chain: Are there things kongregate can and/or should do in order to increase the quality of the service it offers players (through improving game quality and dialogue between developer and player or other things) and game developers (through the platform [eg. apis, platform support, etc.] and carrotization of game developement [eg. rewards from achieving high ratings or alot of plays/playtime])?

My experience here gave me insight into the problems that the average player encounters here – eg. abandoned games that had huge potential (in my opinion) due to the only carrot continuing developement of said game would only show as increased revenue from ads and thus developers are more encouraged to rather continue their efforts in new projects; In other words, the current system encourages abandoning games in favour of new projects regardless of their potential. To begin fixing this, I thought a good starting point would be to begin with games that are good enough to get near the monthly top10 games in rating but still missing something and so I came up with the additional monthly thing that would encourage those developers to further refine those games.

This problem does not extend to games which monetize through in-game shops, where completely different problems arise – problems that are complex and hard to find fixes to, which is why I separated parts of this issue into all 3 points of my post: 1. fucking with players through creation of hype through lies – hype is fine, lying is not, 2. monetization through creating an annoying setting for the player and releasing them from it for as long as they kept paying and finally 3. seeking ways to force the player into visiting other websites in order to generate hits, which is just another – smaller but surer – way to generate revenue through annoying the player. Number 2 is many a times the industry standard for games with in-game-shops and number 3 is not that common and probably not counterable by kong anyway and thus I left those beehives un-poked for now (I can already imagine the amount of stupidity I would encounter with proposing that kong had some kind of standards for in-game monetization) but still wrote what I did in order to make it clear that I do think there are big problems with them as well in case someone agreed and had insights or wanted to discuss ways that it could be improved.

Yeah, ok, that is kind of unfair. Gameplays are so spread out across Kongregate’s games that making a list of enough individual games would take way too long.

Instead, I’ll be happy to accept categories, as long as you demonstrate that those categories are prone to having this problem. (Take a random sample or something to demonstrate it.)

The lying problem mostly affects mmos (eg, the two I mentioned), I would even go as far to say that if we agree that the Hofstadter’s Law applies in general (even though it is kind of stereotypization and in the way it is presented at times), then it is a general problem that games in general suffer from (altough there are always exceptions in those who realize this and do not hastily make promises they cannot keep).

Like so! This does indeed count as “a number of games with more gameplays than Magic Barrage.”

However, I looked at their forum posts, and I didn’t find any promises of the sort you described. All their promises as of late seem to be of the “coming soon” variety, rather than giving an exact date.

In this particular case, the featured PVP was deemed as “coming soon” (reinforced by in-game advertisement of said feature as “coming soon”) for at least 6 months (probably longer, but that is when I was playing the game). PVP was implemented this month. While I see nothing wrong in using “coming soon” when there is no clear date, but there are limits to how far ambiguous lines such as that can be drawn and I find it being the qualifier of 6 months to be nothing but a big fat lie made in order to make players think that the feature could be coming any day now to keep them playing and paying.

Apparently there was this, but that doesn’t meet my second criterion because the players didn’t seem very upset. (Not even in the threads posted before that announcement.)


By the way, another way to gauge the number of players affected by this sort of thing would be to post about it in the forums. If a lot of players posted in support, you could extrapolate and conclude that a large percentage of Kongregate’s players are affected.

If not very many players posted in support, extrapolating would lead to the conclusion that the issue doesn’t affect very many players overall. And if no one posted in support… you’d want to step back and ask yourself if you were falling prey to the false-consensus effect.

Just saying.

Personally I can testify to players being very annoyed by this in both kongregate chat and in-game chat of the game, unfortunately I cannot recall what the topics were at the forums as I was not whining about it there either (personally I already knew edgebee does not react to that kind of stuff at all).

As for statistics as proof of any of this, I have none to offer. Before using the forums to extrapolate anything, I would first need statistics on how many players bother to do that rather than letting it go and/or moving on to another game. I am surprised though to find no topics whining about the lack of the PVP update as people were not pleased with it in chat.

Originally posted by multifails:

Keep in mind what I said about gameplays and moneyflows earlier.

Keep in mind what you said about choice earlier. If your contest proposal is ok because developers can choose whether to participate, then games making money is ok because players can choose whether to buy anything.

Personally, I don’t care about money made, I care about players affected. Gameplays are a decent way to estimate the latter.

The reason I would not use the gameplays statistic alone is because I would say that in the case of games with in-game shops (which are the games mainly affected by the hype-lying), players who use the in-game shop can be said be the player most affected by the hype-lies (worst case scenario being investing money [by buying in-game things] in a product [the game] that is being sold to him with fraudalent advertising [by promises of which are not true]) while those who do not are mainly just annoyed by it. But ok, we can stick with gameplays for the sake of the argument. I would still say that even if a game had 10k gameplays in a year, it would not have the right to try to mislead people.

I’m having trouble parsing this. Are you saying that if the problem was bigger, we’d get less payoff from solving it?

No, I mean that the cost/benefit ratio doesn’t get bigger even if the problem encompassed every game in kong (which it obviously doesn’t) as the efforts needed to create the framework by which it works doesn’t require much effort due to that feature containing features kong already has implemented.

It’s also quite obvious that the problem is hard to map even to the point of being able to give a proper statistic on it (I am basing the need for it on personal experience as a frequent and critical kong user) and the point of this is that even if my estimate based on that proved to be bigger than the actual problem, that would only mean that upkeeping it would be less taxing (while the benefits in moderated cases are clear at least in my opinion).

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by player_03:
Originally posted by multifails:

PS. Tell me honestly, are you discussing this with an open mind, or have you already decided how things are and actively try to find anything you can use to dismiss it?

Wow… that… actually kind of hurts.

That was meant as an honest question as from my point of view so far, you have made many counterarguments questioning the OP, but even though I (can only assume I) have properly been providing my reply to most of them (I’m excluding the part we are still debating on), you (at least seemed to) have ignored most of those and kept on arguing about the things that I may have been wrong on. In my experience this usually means that the discussion will always have the same song of me vs. the next argument the other person can find and it usually has ended with them thinking that finding one thing – however remote – not perfectly on the spot (or proven strongly enough for their liking, which usually means demands of presenting proof of massive proportions of something far fetched simply for the sake of argument [I should rather ask why the examples I provided aren’t enough for you – comparing kongergates unique users to the number of plays mean shit, as even the most played games don’t do that much better than s&p 2 – and what kind of logic you use to determine how many games need to be presented in order for something to exist]) in my argumentation means that everything I said is wrong and everything they say is right.

I did not mean it as a hurtful thing, sorry. I was confused because the way you debate is very high quality, but you have a very anti -attitude on this, purely concentrating on finding something wrong with what I said when you clearly have the intellectual capacity to come up with the solution to fix the argument even in the case that the argument was wrong.

The core point of the disagreement (funny to use that word as it doesn’t even become a disagreement until you disagree on something, in which case you should know what the core thing is that you disagree on, otherwise its just argumentational fishing) is that kongregates quality control of games and the effort they put into carrotizing devs to produce higher quality games (less bullshit and more polish (especially polish of things that most players find badly done in a game) = higher quality). That is 1). Then there’s 2) and 3) which are more complex problems by far.

Now for that “core of our disagreement” thing…

As I said, I don’t believe this is a serious issue. I arrived at this conclusion based on the math: Kongregate has over 21 million unique monthly users, and your best example was a game that only has 13 million gameplays. And it got those gameplays over an 18 month period.

As always, I am willing to reconsider. All you have to do is demonstrate the following:

1) A number of high-profile games made promises that they didn’t follow through on. (Look for at least as many gameplays as Magic Barrage has. Preferably more.)
2) A significant fraction of the players cared. (Look for highly-rated comments on the subject.)

Before I start wasting time on doing something as pointless as that (I have the feeling that no number of plays on a game that did that is going to be enough for you – either the game I present doesn’t have enough gameplays (eg. even the most played game on kong “only has 60m plays in 30 months”, which is only roughly 3 times as many as with s&p2 which has the same amount of plays per month as the highest rated game in kong) to your liking or you’re going to single it out as ‘just one game in the face of 21m unique visitors monthly’ and start demaning I screen every game in kong to create a statistic for you out of them), I’m going to ask: Are you really challenging my argument on the basis that this doesn’t happen in games in kong? Even after using Hofstadter’s Law in your argument? Are you sure? Really really sure?

Keep in mind what I said about gameplays and moneyflows earlier. Also, as you were arguing that the payoff isn’t big enough to consider things such as these, you do realize that the more games there are out there doing this, the more work it is going to be for the same effect and vice versa?

(If you really want some more games, just look at any game made by EdgeBee, the developer of s&p 2, they’re very good at fucking their customers in the ass). In other words, I already brought examples on to the table and you’re going to have to do better if you want to ‘assign me some more manual labor’.


Guilty as charged. Sure I was trying to get at that “core of the disagreement,” but I should have at least acknowledged the other points you made. Sorry.


Do you have anything constructive to say about anything then?

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by player_03:

In some cases, I agree that developers could use a little encouragement to spend time improving their games. In other cases, their time would be better spent working on the next game. Applied indiscriminately, your advice would hurt as much as it helped.

For this one I’m going to want a little more explaining as to why it would hurt anyone.

It would be 100% the developers own choise wether or not they continued developing the game or moved on to the next project. The whole point of adding a second-month prize was to give devs who made good games that were lacking in polish or content an extra reason to spend a little more time on that particular game. That part would not even be able to hurt anyone.

As for penalizing lies and empty promises, I don’t see why the dev couldn’t simply say they are unable to give a release time for updates and just say they are working on them if that is the case. Again, this part can only hurt those who actively lie to players – how this could be a bad thing… I’m eagerly waiting for the explanation.

And in any case, the developers who need encouragement are not the developers who promise updates. Usually if a developer promises something, they really are working on it. The fact that sometimes it takes ages to deliver is Hofstadter’s Law in action.

Putting a pretty name to people pulling dates from their asses when they do not have an estimate doesn’t make it ‘ok’. Incapability to say “TBA” instead of “oh it’ll be done in 2 weeks” when one doesn’t have a clue is not something that should be enabled.

PS. Tell me honestly, are you discussing this with an open mind, or have you already decided how things are and actively try to find anything imperfect about it so you can pretend that one thing can be used to dismiss everything? I don’t think blanket arguing leads to anywhere (ie. moving from one thing to the other with arguments while evading/ignoring any counters to the previous ones in hopes of finding one argument that you get right).

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

I would like to ask anyone partaking in this discussion to refrain from simply trying to dismiss the the OP using any, however small maybe-possibly-imperfection and try to type in some constructive input instead – if you think it’s wrong, FIX IT instead of dismissing it, the amount of time you’ll waste on the matter will be the same regardless.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by player_03:

The same thing I thought of the ones I did comment on. Too much work and not enough payoff. You haven’t yet convinced me that this is a serious issue.

Games lose players if they don’t update regularly, and they get low ratings if they aren’t good enough. This is true no matter how many promises they make.

Magic Barrage, for instance, only has 360k overall gameplays. In the world of money-making multiplayer games, 360k gameplays is a rounding error.

What exactly should the payoff be for it to be worth checking on a few games every now and then by a few mods? Also the ‘seriousness’ of this issue is quite debateable, as nothing related to kong is truely serious when we really put things into perspective.

Personally I think less bullshit from certain devs who are prone to that kind of behaviour and the ‘margin’ devs (who are hovering somewhere in the gray area between great and not so great) spending a little more time developing their games based on player input is enough of a payoff.

Also, I would not use overall gameplays as a measure of anything. If we really wanted to compare them, we would need to see the monthly money flows of each game, otherwise we’re just pulling incomparable figures out of our butts and using them as basis for argument.

If you really want to keep arguing with the numbers, feel free to say the same for the other game I used in the example, which has 13m plays in 18 months. which is comparable to other mmos in relation to the time they have been on the site.

Originally posted by saybox:

<

This is true and I’m not sure how you can point that out while claiming that devs should be punished for not putting in continual effort to a game that’s already had its strongest time in the spotlight. What you’re suggesting doesn’t make it more appealing for devs to continue working on a game, it just means that it makes more sense for them to say “this game is finished, no updates ever, see you.”


Personally I wouldn’t keep playing a game I didn’t like just in case it was updated eventually. And if I do like the game as it is, then updates are a bonus, not an obligation.


I did not claim that, quite the contrary, I claimed devs should be given additional carrots to keep developing their game past the first month. Penalizing creating ‘hype’ in order to keep players playing and paying through lies has nothing to do with the proposal that would give additional carrots for devs to keep developing their game past the first month.


This wouldn’t work simply because there’d end up being massive backlogs of eligible games. Let’s say ther’s ~900 games uploaded in a month: only 10 of those can win the monthly prize, and everything else ends up with a rating lower than those. So 890 games are now competing with the next set of 900 games on the list. You’ve just doubled the number of games trying to win one of ten prizes, making if less likely that any individual game is going to win.


Also, many MMOs (who are the games that talk about updates, Kreds, etc the most) are ineligible for the monthly contests in the first place. The money involved for a contest prize is irrelevant to them compared to what they make from MTX.

I’ll explain what I meant in more detail: Those 890 other games would not be competing with the next months games in any way, but rather would be given the same prize money the previous months 10th place game got if they managed to raise the ranking of the game above that during the next month. Money wise this is pennies to kongregate regardless of how many games managed to do that (and its not easy enough to do that very many games would anyway). The current competition for the 10 prizes wouldn’t be affected by this in any way.

The problems with monetization inside a game are under 2), which I haven’t put any effort into trying to fix, as its a very complicated matter and I’d rather raise ideas through discussion.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

As for rinky999, I agree that I should simply explain to him in detail why he is wrong, but considering all his arguments are strawmen to the OP, my trolldar is going off on him and I don’t think he really wants to have a discussion about it, just troll, so I’m not wasting time on it. Call it my human failing. Also, there is a difference between “you are an idiot and thus your argument is bad” and “your argument is bad and thus you are an idiot” – the other is an ad hominem, the other one is just an observation/insult.

Originally posted by player_03:
Originally posted by multifails:

I would expect them to be “moderated” by players ‘flagging’ or ‘reporting’ them in the event of gross violation

I guess that could work.

Except… didn’t you say that not very many players check back? If they don’t come back and rate it down, would they really come back and flag it?

Or if the system requires only a few flags, what’s to keep players from abusing the feature? I wouldn’t be surprised if a small group of players went through the Idle games list and flagged everything there.

Not in every case no, just as with any other flagging function in kong it may be left unused in some cases due to human conditions, but not every case would be as important to catch either – the important part is to catch gross violations like with magic barrage or s&p 2 [both which made all kinds of promises to players in order to keep them playing and paying (as far as i know, both succeeded in that regard) while not delivering on them[in s&p 2’s defense, it DID come come through after about 5 months or so, but still the initial promises on it as a ‘coming soon’ feature was a huge lie clearly made with profits in mind all the while deleting people’s accounts after being gone from the game for a few months].

As for people going around flagging games for nothing:
I think the same can be said about any function that kong (or should I say internet) has where a user can do something that has an effect on other users and while there will most definetly be stupid people doing stupid things with them, I don’t think that’s a reason not to do it; I can come up with similar scenarios for any function from the rating system to the forums and while there are certainly trolls running around doing all kinds of things and not enough mods to moderate everything, things still mostly work.

Also, it would be very quick to ‘unflag’ games which were flagged but where the developer did not make promises in (hence why we would need the third tab containing said promises and updates in non-editable form), which would further make it harder for people to go around trolling games, though the flagging function should probably have a way for the user to include a message with the flagging to explain why the game was flagged that way (which in turn would both increase the efficiency of the system and the ways that trolls could abuse it).


If a game is in your playlist, you’ll receive update notifications from that game.

I did not know this, not even after thorough searching for how the playlist works before posting the above (and for a feature reminding a user about being notified on game updates too). No proper information but I did get people going “WTF games I have removed from my playlist popping back in there”, so I would say kong failed in introducing its inner workings to most of the users – this would need to be rectified.

Edit: What do you think of the proposals you didn’t comment on?

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by player_03:

Meta commentary: This thread contains too much meta commentary.

On topic: Kongregate is already short on moderators. How do you expect them to moderate games too?

By the way, there already is a “remind me to play this game later” button: the Playlist button.

I would expect them to be “moderated” by players ‘flagging’ or ‘reporting’ them in the event of gross violation (eg. Magic Barrage – Bitferno would fall into this category where the dev made alot of promises of updates in order to keep people playing and paying, yet as far as I know, to this day the dev hasn’t delivered on them).

As for the playlist, I don’t think it shows you wether or not said game got any updates or not, which was the whole point.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

I must admit, I was wrong.

The problem with kong is that the players are idiots (amazingly good at trolling though); See above (eg. rinky999 thinking he is above basic human psychology).

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by Tetsuo_Shima:

Well, you want to keep on going, lets keep on going. :D

No, I want you to decide wether you want to discuss it or not. If not, then just go away.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by Tetsuo_Shima:

Erm, I never claimed that if a game was not fun to play from the start, that it couldn’t be made such. I simply said that it shouldn’t have been released yet if it wasn’t really finished and that I wouldn’t bother visiting it again if it bothered me that much from the start. There are plenty of alternative options, there is no point hoping against hope a game becomes what you want it to become.

Neither did I say every player of every game would get reminded about every game they played now did I? Only those who chose to be. Why would you choose to argue from a hyperbolic point of view on the other hand implies you do not wish to actually discuss this as much as dismiss it.

Even AAAAAAAA and A rated game companies release poorly finished games all the time, in fact, I would argue that there are no games released at all that don’t have bigger and smaller bugs, balance issues and other oversights. Perhaps because player feedback is very valuable in pointing out the things that get caught in the way of players enjoyment.

I also never claimed to be speaking for anyone but me. I said I disagreed with your post. You decided that bothered you enough to attack me personally instead of commenting on my opinion if you wanted to. I don’t think you’re going to find anyone anywhere that speaks for everyone and the chance of finding anyone that can always speak for the majority is slim to none.</p

If this subject was only about things relating to you, then considering nothing but yourself is fine, but if you cannot comprehend anything outside of your own existance, then perhaps it is best you do not take part in public conversations. It is fine to bring out your opinions and your subjective view on things, but basing everything in your arguments on those alone is just being self-centered.

If you’re only looking for people to give you general remarks that apply to everyone and not have any opinion of their own or can’t have an opinion that doesn’t coincide with your own, this thread is going to die a lonely death. ;)

See above. Also, wether or not this thread will die a longely death means absolutely nothing to me, I’m simply bringing up my observations in hopes that those interested will converse on the subject (based on your argumentation style, you are not one of these people) and perhaps bring some changes that are helpful for both players and devs alike in the long run.

If anything kills it, it will be you with your dismissive style of convo and perhaps it is what you seek to do all along.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by Tetsuo_Shima:

Do explain to me how a solution to a problem doesn’t use the problem as the basis for its argument. ;)

By not being the main problem? Even the little part you commented on shows how self-centered and small minded your argument is; Simply because you think all games are black-and-white, either playable and enjoyable or beyond-repair does not make it so, nor does it make everyone else not want to be able to re-visit a game where the dev has updated a game the player deemed good enough to re-visit with some changes. YOU don’t have to if you don’t want to, that button would clearly not be for you.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by Tetsuo_Shima:
Originally posted by multifails:

I see you didn’t bother to read the part where the player of the game would have to press a button next to the rating buttons to be reminded if he wanted to be. But hey, why bother reading when you can just skip to the part where you throw whatever superficial thoughts you have at the moment in the air. Also, you replied to “1)” yet you only talk about a part 1/5 in lenght of the actual “1)”.

I’m not going to even answer the rest of your post until you read mine with thought and reply with it as well.

Actually, I did read the entire thing, however, since if a dev fails to develop a game that’s properly working from the start, I’m not interested in revisting it. Once that becomes clear the rest of your post becomes meaningless, so there’s no point in replying to every single one of your proposed solutions. ;)

Reading and understanding are two very different things, as we learned from your previous post. Also, your argument about rest of the post becoming meaningless is complete bullshit, as the proposals don’t use each other as a basis for the argument.

Why dont you take your own advice and stop talking about something you obviously dont want to talk about.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by Tetsuo_Shima:

Hmm, I disagree with all three of your points really.

1. If a game is as poorly made as to require such significant updates to make it enjoyable and/or playable, it simply shouldn’t have been released yet and revisiting is not one of the things I’d do, there are plenty of alternatives available. I’d definitely wouldn’t want to be reminded about it by some automated message.

I see you didn’t bother to read the part where the player of the game would have to press a button next to the rating buttons to be reminded if he wanted to be. But hey, why bother reading when you can just skip to the part where you throw whatever superficial thoughts you have at the moment in the air. Also, you replied to “1)” yet you only talk about a part 1/5 in lenght of the actual “1)”.

I’m not going to even answer the rest of your post until you read mine with thought and reply with it as well.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Tukkun, see the last section of my post. You nailed it.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

1) Many games make big promises about bug fixes and future updates but never deliver their promises. These often-empty promises end up increasing the ‘hype -factor’ of a game, perhaps increasing ratings for the game at first, but in the long run simply frustrate and drive players away. Why are they made? first of all, most usually players rate a game once. If they rate a game poorly because of bugs / lack of content, or highly due to ‘hype -factor’ and initial impression, that rating is likely to stay that way unless the game manages to get on the first page of any of the commonly browsed lists. Secondly there is no ‘carrot’ for the dev to increase a games rating after the first month rather than concentrating on making another game unless the game is a very big hit.

Proposed solutions:
Make the devs responsible for their promises (ie. such promises should not be allowed to be made in instructions or description part of the game, should not be modifiable after been written and should be directly tied to the updates of the game – perhaps by adding one more tab along the previously mentioned; ‘updates’ which contained said promises and updates with dates on them).

Promising and not delivering should then be penalized by decreasing the profits a dev gets from their games (be that via monthly contest or advertisement) as far as kong is involved. Unless of course you would think that outright lying to the players is a good way to conduct business (it is the way of the world though, so I’m not surprised if kong wants to ride the same ship on the stream of shit).

Monthly contests should also be divided onto multiple months so that the devs have an additional ‘carrot’ to keep polishing & fixing their game after initial release. Making it so that if a game released the previous month that didn’t get a monthly prize raises their rating past the rating of the 10th game in the previous months ‘competition’, they are rewarded as if they got to the 10th place. This promotes the dev to spend more time polishing a game that is good but only lacking in polish or content and thus, we get better games.

The players should also get the chance to be reminded to check a game again after a period of time if they rate a game low because of bad polish or bugs – adding a small ‘remind me to check this game later’ button near the rating buttons is not a huge deal, games marked this way would then be shown to the player in a special list when they were updated. This also promotes devs to increase the effort put into polishing & fixing after release and thus, better games.

2) Monetization in many games comes at the cost of game quality (ie. spending money is not a luxury good or a game enhancer or prolonger, its a necessity and in many cases only speeds up the players progress through the game, not enhancing it in any way. Thus in many cases we don’t pay for extra content in a game we like, we pay to get to the end and stop playing quicker / not be annoyed by what can only be called “annoying the player by design to make them pay for the annoyment to stop”.

3) Website hit phishing is common in games (ie. placing links / link popups where player would click to play the game in order to get an accidental click on it). This goes almost hand in hand with the “annoy the player to make more money” that happens with 2) and it’s not a healthy business technique.

Kong should not take a stance of “dont hate game, hate the player” (game being kong, player being a dev), as the devs are human and do this for money, so as long as there’s nothing stopping them, they will use whatever means are at their disposal to get more of it.

 
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Topic: Swords & Potions 2 / Where did my shop go?

You can see from your achievements where you approximately were before (I had 15,539 item sales, 18 adventures / 24 quests cleared, 598 furnitures (i assume that’s cellcount), 31,900,352 lifetime sales). These numbers could be very easily used to re-create an account – gold can be given straight up, sale numbers can be used to distribute compensation exp to workers [getting back even a fraction of exp go a long way in getting back players who won’t be coming back because of this, I might be one of them – as it currently stands, this game can go to hell], furniture cellcount can be used to approximate shop size.

Some devs do recreate accounts of players when they are lost due to an oversight of the dev (take Tiny Dice Dungeon for example, they would recreate your account if you told them what you approximately had), but LazyBee is not one to think about customers, so none of the above can be expected to happen even when they could easily give back certain things we can see we had from achievements.

Welcome to the world people, this is how business is done.

 
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Topic: Swords & Potions 2 / Where did my shop go?

Way to fück people in the a$$, GreedyBee.

Originally posted by notwillard:

They probably did this to make the servers run faster:

less data—>faster look-ups

IDK if that makes you feel better tho…

No. Even if every kong user played the game, you would not have a noticeable speed-down from this – database programs are extremely well optimizied and unless the user is a total idiot, most common queries in games will execute at O(1) or in some cases O(log n), there should be very little or no O(n) or O(n^2) queries in normal game play.

This was done to ‘keep the house clean’, an oversight by someone who is bad at positioning themself in the position of a player and seeing the effects of the decisions one makes.

PS. I lost my progress too, sucks.

 
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Topic: Magic Barrage - Bitferno / how much time now?

Originally posted by heff420:

Empty promises of content + gullible players = $$

This is how all business works in the world. Hype your product to raise its value and sell it, the better you do this, the more money you make.

No-one really thought that anyone who makes alot of money actually does something to produce anything of equal value did they?

 
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Topic: Magic Barrage - Bitferno / how much time now?

Originally posted by Tons_of_fun:

What’s the reasoning in decided to really slowly implement small stuff and wait longer to implement larger stuff simply because you don’t want to take the servers down for a bit? I’d rather the game be down and be patched completely than have to continue to wait and wait on things that should have been fixed ages ago.

Let me translate his last message for you:

“We overestimated our skill and motivation towards continued developement of this game. We will fix things and implement them immediately as they are done. Creating new content is a pain in the ass and we will do it when we do it – the louder you whine the more it annoys us and the longer you will have to wait for it (as nobody works faster if the customer is yelling at you and calling you names).

Enjoy the game – if you need a new tier of items and a dungeon every day to be content, get a life or at least go fck yourself, playing that much is not healthy for you."

 
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Topic: Tiny Dice Dungeon / It seems like Poison Dice miss more often than other dice.

Sure, more damage but it takes a crapload of time for that damage to get done. Later on you’ll just go “why the hell bother when I can just cannon them down in 1 go anyway?”

 
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Topic: Epic Arena / Suggestions / etc whine.

1) Combat needs speed changing options badly, nobody wants to waste time watching the computer do its slow turns.
2) This game is not tactical or strategy, its puzzle.
3) This game is very bad at being a CCG too, there’s literally nothing you can do about the regular cards you have, they’re always the same and the levels I’ve played so far gave me zero opportunity to use the powercards i got from the shop – the tiny, tiny, tiny speck of change you can make in your available actions.

Visually pleasing but as a game, this one requires alot more work before it will even begin to entertain – it feels like a visually polished pre-alpha release.

 
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Topic: Tiny Dice Dungeon / Stealin Dice Back... does it work for you?

Seen the button just fine, but never been able to find the opponent, even if they stole my dice 30 seconds ago.

 
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Topic: Tiny Dice Dungeon / why difficult is auto-increase?

Originally posted by Misaky:

I just unlocked the mage and hunter, and its very hard to train them at start <_<
they start at lvl 0 and the monsters arent shared(so.. 0 monsters at start).
even on the tutorial maps appears rare monsters that make me fail the map.

Items dude, items :) Get items from the Adventurer (your first character) and you’ll be crazy litte mage/hunter :P