Recent posts by player_03 on Kongregate

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Topic: Kongregate / [New Feature] Introducing Kongpanions!

I’d say it’s time to let it go. Enjoy Kongpanions for what they are, and stop bugging the staff about what they turned out not to be.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / [New Feature] Introducing Kongpanions!

At this point, Kongpanions are for collecting, showing off, and carving into pumpkins. They aren’t going to show up in many more games, if any.

 
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Topic: Game Programming / OPEN SOURCE PIXEL ART

Like this?

 
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Topic: Game Programming / Flash vs. Stencyl vs. Unity ( 2D games )

Originally posted by Darkscanner:

I will say it’s horrible for making browser games from a performance standpoint.

I think it depends on your computer. I’ve seen quite a few complaints like this, but I’ve never experienced the issue firsthand.

Originally posted by Darkscanner:

It also isn’t getting an export to flash option which means users have to download a second plugin to use it online.

Most people here already have the plugin.

Originally posted by Darkscanner:

I also think it uses C++ which if used correctly is faster than actionscript could ever hope to be,

C#, actually, so… not so much.

Originally posted by Darkscanner:

It’s a free to use programming language which is basically a better version of AS3.

Fixed that for you.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / kreds

I assume it was someone at TrialPay who sent the email? Double-check their email address to make sure that it’s from a legitimate domain, and also double-check the “reply-to” address if there is one.

I’m not surprised that they want proof of purchase, but you should be able to get away with whiting out some of your account details. However, I am neither a financial advisor nor a security expert, so it might be best if you consulted with someone at your bank before responding.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by multifails:

“we were so busy that we could not find the time write 1 line saying ‘the developement of this update is halted due to other issues we’re having’. in fact so busy we couldn’t find the time in 6 months!”. and yes, i like to use this one as an example because of its so absurd

Even if the delay wasn’t their fault, and they weren’t intentionally lying when they made the first statement, you think there should be a penalty for the lack of communication?

Originally posted by multifails:

If you want to use that to dismiss the argument, feel free to, but I’m not one to whine about a problem unless I have a reason to think (like encountering it on a regular basis [my experience] and having a valid reason to believe its intentional to a degree [common behaviour in business when money is involved]).

I know it seems unfair. And perhaps it is. But nonetheless I’m not going to trust any one player’s judgement of what the community thinks. If a sizable fraction of the community thinks something, one would expect to hear it from more than one person.

Fortunately or unfortunately, I’m not the one whose opinion you need to worry about. You need to convince Kongregate’s community managers; if you manage it, my opinion won’t matter.

Keep in mind that they have access to more information than I do. If you’re confident that this is an important issue affecting many players, they should be able to confirm it for themselves. Why don’t you contact Kongregate’s Game Master and ask how often he sees this sort of complaint?

Originally posted by multifails:

Just because some say size doesn’t matter doesn’t mean it doesn’t – it has a psychological effect.

I was complaining about the time investment required to write long posts. Nothing more.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by multifails:

In other words, the current system encourages abandoning games in favour of new projects regardless of their potential.

I agree. But that isn’t really Kongregate’s fault. And in fact it isn’t limited to games.

There’s a reason that major games (and other products) go through test markets; if there’s something wrong with the game/product on release day, a good number of your players/customers won’t give it a second chance.

Plus, games naturally lose players over time. A large number of people play the game immediately after release, but then interest dies down. The game continues to get a trickle of new players, but many developers prefer to ride that initial wave of players.

There are, of course, ways to hold player interest. One of the big ones is – you guessed it – updating the game. And this is something that Kongregate can help with, because the update by itself isn’t enough. You have to let players know about it. You may have noticed that Kongregate is already doing this for MMOs.

So there already was a “carrot” encouraging S&P 2 to finish their PvP mode: they had a spot on the homepage waiting for them.

Originally posted by multifails:

I find it being the qualifier of 6 months to be nothing but a big fat lie made in order to make players think that the feature could be coming any day now to keep them playing and paying.

• I tentatively accept that it had the effect you described, at least for a month or three.
• I might believe that they intended the effect you described.
• I absolutely would not believe that they willingly waited six months.

Even leaving aside the explanation they posted, even leaving aside the fact that they had a spot in the feature roll waiting for them, I’m familiar with the basics of MMO development and monetization.

And you know what? PvP is a huge deal. PvP makes players play more than normal. PvP keeps players from leaving. PvP can convince non-paying players to buy their first item. PvP makes paying players buy even more.

In short, PvP brings in more money for the developer than “hype for PvP” possibly could.

Originally posted by multifails:

Personally I can testify to players being very annoyed by this in both kongregate chat and in-game chat of the game

That helps, but… if I was going to make an estimate, I’d at least prefer to be able to see a record of the complaints and recount them. I wouldn’t trust my memory on this, and I certainly wouldn’t trust my memory of an estimate I made months ago while annoyed.

:/

Originally posted by multifails:

I am surprised though to find no topics whining about the lack of the PVP update as people were not pleased with it in chat.

It’s good to see that you’re willing to admit it when a prediction turns out wrong. Is it safe to assume that you adjusted your mental estimates accordingly?

Originally posted by multifails:

I would still say that even if a game had 10k gameplays in a year, it would not have the right to try to mislead people.

Did… did you just try to justify scope insensitivity?

Originally posted by multifails:

the efforts needed to create the framework by which it works doesn’t require much effort due to that feature containing features kong already has implemented.

It’s never effortless. Even if they’ve already written most of the code they need, they still have to do extensive testing to make sure the new feature works correctly. You wouldn’t want it malfunctioning and failing to give a reward that was promised.

But that’s not all. We’re discussing software for moderating humans; the software isn’t the complicated part. Before you can even start on the software, you need to figure out how you’re going to get the humans in question to do what you want.

It’s tougher than it sounds. Incentives often don’t work the way you hope they will.

For instance, a second monthly contest would likely not cause developers to try and improve their games. Instead, the games that won the first contest will tend to win the second. And if you disqualify the first ten winners, then the ten runners-up will tend to win. You’ve already commented that players are slow to rate a game down; the same applies in reverse.

Penalizing developers for lying… well, even if there was a good way to distinguish lying from being honestly mistaken, the developers wouldn’t like it. Kongregate is not the only option they have for distributing their games; they’d at least consider taking their business elsewhere. (Yes, that is a thing that can happen, and Kongregate is not at all happy when it does.)

Notifying players of updates? Ok, yeah, that one should be fine. Which may be why it already happens.


…And this is another reason I prefer to go for the “core” point of disagreement. Otherwise these posts get way too long. Don’t be too disappointed when I go back to short posts.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by multifails:

it doesn’t even become a disagreement until you disagree on something, in which case you should know what the core thing is that you disagree on

It takes two to make a disagreement. Unfortunately, we take many of our beliefs for granted, and simply state our conclusions based on those beliefs. Our real disagreement lies in our foundational assumptions, the things we aren’t saying.

Obviously I can pick out conclusions of yours that I disagree with, as I did at first. But we could go back and forth all day that way without getting anywhere, constantly moving the goalposts.

Instead what I’m trying to do is figure out which of our unstated assumptions are in conflict. Because then there’s at least a chance of resolving the argument.

Originally posted by multifails:

I have the feeling that no number of plays on a game that did that is going to be enough for you –

I went ahead and came up with a hypothetical situation which I would consider to affect “enough” players.

Hypothetical: A problem that affected many Unity games, along with evidence that a sizable fraction of Kongregate’s users play Unity games. (Yes, the latter seems obvious, but that doesn’t allow you to skip the step. Fortunately, it is not hard at all to find such evidence.)

Originally posted by multifails:

even the most played game on kong “only has 60m plays in 30 months”, which is only roughly 3 times as many as with s&p2 which has the same amount of plays per month as the highest rated game in kong

Yeah, ok, that is kind of unfair. Gameplays are so spread out across Kongregate’s games that making a list of enough individual games would take way too long.

Instead, I’ll be happy to accept categories, as long as you demonstrate that those categories are prone to having this problem. (Take a random sample or something to demonstrate it.)

It would also help if you could point to a developer who’s prone to this.

Originally posted by multifails:

If you really want some more games, just look at any game made by EdgeBee, the developer of s&p 2, they’re very good at fucking their customers in the ass

Like so! This does indeed count as “a number of games with more gameplays than Magic Barrage.”

However, I looked at their forum posts, and I didn’t find any promises of the sort you described. All their promises as of late seem to be of the “coming soon” variety, rather than giving an exact date.

Apparently there was this, but that doesn’t meet my second criterion because the players didn’t seem very upset. (Not even in the threads posted before that announcement.)


By the way, another way to gauge the number of players affected by this sort of thing would be to post about it in the forums. If a lot of players posted in support, you could extrapolate and conclude that a large percentage of Kongregate’s players are affected.

If not very many players posted in support, extrapolating would lead to the conclusion that the issue doesn’t affect very many players overall. And if no one posted in support… you’d want to step back and ask yourself if you were falling prey to the false-consensus effect.

Just saying.

Originally posted by multifails:

Keep in mind what I said about gameplays and moneyflows earlier.

Keep in mind what you said about choice earlier. If your contest proposal is ok because developers can choose whether to participate, then games making money is ok because players can choose whether to buy anything.

Personally, I don’t care about money made, I care about players affected. Gameplays are a decent way to estimate the latter.

Originally posted by multifails:

Also, as you were arguing that the payoff isn’t big enough to consider things such as these, you do realize that the more games there are out there doing this, the more work it is going to be for the same effect and vice versa?

I’m having trouble parsing this. Are you saying that if the problem was bigger, we’d get less payoff from solving it?

 
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Topic: Kongregate / kreds

If you’re willing and able to pay actual money, why not buy Kreds directly? It’s more reliable than TrialPay.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by multifails:

PS. Tell me honestly, are you discussing this with an open mind, or have you already decided how things are and actively try to find anything you can use to dismiss it?

Wow... that... actually kind of hurts.

• I do my best to consider all sides of an issue, and avoid jumping to conclusions until I've done so.
• If someone disagrees with me, I try to understand why.
• When presented with new information, I consider it as honestly and openly as I can.
• I attempt to compensate for my biases, keeping in mind the bias blind spot.
• I make an effort to find the core point of disagreement, and focus exclusively on that. (Didn't succeed here; sorry. I'll be more careful going forward.)
• When I realize I'm wrong, I admit it.

I am not perfectly rational. No one is. But I do make a serious effort. And now you come along and insinuate that I'm not even trying?

• I'm not the one assuming my opponents didn't bother to read.
• If I thought someone didn't understand what I said, I'd explain it again.
• I might tell someone that their argument is bad (and they should feel bad about said argument), but I wouldn't suggest that they not take part in public conversations.
• I happily tell people that they're wrong. After all, being wrong is a temporary state. I do not use terms that belittle the person's entire existence, such as "stupid" or idiot.
• I assume good faith where possible. I don't accuse people of actively lying when there's an obvious alternate explanation.


Now for that "core of our disagreement" thing...

As I said, I don't believe this is a serious issue. I arrived at this conclusion based on the math: Kongregate has over 21 million unique monthly users, and your best example was a game that only has 13 million gameplays. And it got those gameplays over an 18 month period.

As always, I am willing to reconsider. All you have to do is demonstrate the following:

1) A number of high-profile games made promises that they didn't follow through on. (Look for at least as many gameplays as Magic Barrage has. Preferably more.)
2) A significant fraction of the players cared. (Look for highly-rated comments on the subject.)

Originally posted by multifails:

(ie. moving from one thing to the other with arguments while evading/ignoring any counters to the previous ones in hopes of finding one argument that you get right).

Guilty as charged. Sure I was trying to get at that "core of the disagreement," but I should have at least acknowledged the other points you made. Sorry.

Reasonable points you made:

• The section about flagging here.
• That developers could choose to ignore the second contest, so it wasn't clear how your advice would hurt. (In fact, it's no longer clear to me either. I concede the point.)
• The fact that I chose Magic Barrage rather than Swords & Potions as my example.
• That developers ought to say "TBA" rather than give a date.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / The Ability to Say "Fuck" in Shouts

For the record, the best strategy when someone bumps a thread is not to respond, but instead to flag their post. If the post gets hidden and no one else has posted, the bump will be undone.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by multifails:

Personally I think less bullshit from certain devs who are prone to that kind of behaviour and the ‘margin’ devs (who are hovering somewhere in the gray area between great and not so great) spending a little more time developing their games based on player input is enough of a payoff.

In some cases, I agree that developers could use a little encouragement to spend time improving their games. In other cases, their time would be better spent working on the next game. Applied indiscriminately, your advice would hurt as much as it helped.

And in any case, the developers who need encouragement are not the developers who promise updates. Usually if a developer promises something, they really are working on it. The fact that sometimes it takes ages to deliver is Hofstadter’s Law in action.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by multifails:

As for rinky999, I agree that I should simply explain to him in detail why he is wrong, but considering all his arguments are strawmen to the OP, my trolldar is going off on him and I don’t think he really wants to have a discussion about it, just troll, so I’m not wasting time on it.

You could have at least tried. If nothing else, for the benefit of others reading the thread.

Originally posted by multifails:

Edit: What do you think of the proposals you didn’t comment on?

The same thing I thought of the ones I did comment on. Too much work and not enough payoff. You haven’t yet convinced me that this is a serious issue.

Games lose players if they don’t update regularly, and they get low ratings if they aren’t good enough. This is true no matter how many promises they make.

Magic Barrage, for instance, only has 360k overall gameplays. In the world of money-making multiplayer games, 360k gameplays is a rounding error.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by multifails:

I would expect them to be “moderated” by players ‘flagging’ or ‘reporting’ them in the event of gross violation

I guess that could work.

Except… didn’t you say that not very many players check back? If they don’t come back and rate it down, would they really come back and flag it?

Or if the system requires only a few flags, what’s to keep players from abusing the feature? I wouldn’t be surprised if a small group of players went through the Idle games list and flagged everything there.

Originally posted by multifails:

As for the playlist, I don’t think it shows you wether or not said game got any updates or not, which was the whole point.

If a game is in your playlist, you’ll receive update notifications from that game.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Originally posted by multifails:

I must admit, I was wrong.

The problem with kong is that the players are idiots (amazingly good at trolling though); See above (eg. rinky999 thinking he is above basic human psychology).

Let’s say – purely hypothetically, of course – that there’s someone observing this debate. And this hypothetical person doesn’t understand why “With voting rights comes responsibility” is stupid.

It doesn’t help to say that rinky999 is an idiot. This may be true, but the hypothetical bystander doesn’t understand why.

The only way to make the observer understand is to explain why voting rights don’t imply responsibility. No matter how stupid the claim is, you can’t skip the explanation, or the hypothetical observer won’t get it.


In case the above was insufficiently condescending, I would like to present the following for your judicious consideration:

Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Problems in todays Kong

Meta commentary: This thread contains too much meta commentary.

On topic: Kongregate is already short on moderators. How do you expect them to moderate games too?

By the way, there already is a “remind me to play this game later” button: the Playlist button.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / How should Kongregate filter games?

What’s the benefit of cramming them together like that?

 
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Topic: Kongregate / How should Kongregate filter games?

In a recent episode, the Extra Credits discussed the sentiment that there are “too many games coming out.” I encourage you to watch the whole episode, but the short version is, there aren’t too many games, there just aren’t good enough filters.

Consider YouTube as an example. It’s literally impossible to watch all the videos that get uploaded, but you don’t get overwhelmed because YouTube only shows you videos it thinks you’ll be interested in.

Here on Kongregate, people have been requesting something simpler: An option to exclude tags from search results. It’s a much smaller change than the YouTube thing, but it’s based on the same idea: Filter out the content that you won’t enjoy.

And while it’s an excellent suggestion, I have a feeling it won’t be enough.


Maybe what Kongregate needs is to apply filters to the homepage. Or a way to search your recommended games. Or how about an easier way to find games similar to that one game you liked?

I’d put this in the suggestions thread, except I haven’t settled on any one suggestion. So I’d like some feedback from the community: How do you think filtering should work?

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Why does Kongregate suck?

Communities change as they grow, generally getting less tight-knit and friendly. There’s not much anyone can do about that, except maybe leaving to create a smaller community.

See also: Dunbar’s number.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Why does Kongregate suck?

Originally posted by Rychip:

That popup rate-this-game that is still present.

This has been fixed for ages. Just close three in a row without rating, then click the checkbox to opt out.

 
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Topic: Tiny Dice Dungeon / pets

Monster catching guide

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Questions about thegames8 (aka belugerin aka monsterplay999 aka awesomegames8...)

That’s a bug in the recommendation system, not a problem with thegames8/belugerin. I’ll pass it on.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Questions about thegames8 (aka belugerin aka monsterplay999 aka awesomegames8...)

Originally posted by Gigathorn:

Player_03 ? are you really working for Kongregate or is it just a lie… another one. I feel like you’re protecting thegame8 and the way he cheat the rating. Why ? You are losing total credit by defending him, and i can’t believe you are supported by Kongregate doing so.

I am attempting to do two things here.

1) Convey Kongregate’s official position on this topic. (In the posts where I state that I’m officially speaking for Kongregate.)
2) Encourage people to consider alternatives. (Anywhere that I’m not speaking for Kongregate.)

The latter is a valuable life skill, so I try to teach it any opportunity I get. You’ll note that I’ve argued against Trollusque too. (The problem with preaching the middle ground is that both sides tend to see me as an enemy at first.)

Anyway, I’m going to suggest some alternatives you haven’t considered. Please don’t reject them out-of-hand; I’m only trying to help.

Originally posted by Gigathorn:

So why Thegame8/Belugerin/monster999 is not here, explaining how and why he is spamming horrible games again and again ? The only logical answer is… because he is already there (hi Troll) or someone is already doing so in his name.

Alternative: thegames8 is not aware of this thread.

As has already been discussed, thegames8 puts out a lot of different games, submits them to multiple sites, and arranges for the games to get a lot of upvotes on both Newgrounds and Kongregate. (Doesn’t matter if these upvotes come from bots, alt accounts, or friends/family. Any of these options would take time.)

All of this means that thegames8 keeps busy, and probably doesn’t have time to keep tabs on what people are saying about them in the forums.

Also, here’s an industry “secret”: if you want as many players to see something as possible, you put a message in the game itself. And then another message in the game description. And a third in response to a top comment. Responding to this forum thread wouldn’t even be in the top 20. After all, most of their players will never read this thread.

Originally posted by Gigathorn:

If nothing is done soon about this problem, it will be worse. How much fake dev, alt dev spaming Kong with very bad games?

Not all problems become worse if left unattended. This one is likely to be one of those. As I stated earlier, they’ve likely made less than $500 off of this. We aren’t going to see many “follow the leader” types here; they’re all busy following the $10,000+ “leaders”.

I can’t tell you how many slippery slope arguments I’ve seen that failed to pan out. A slippery slope argument not always a fallacy, but yours doesn’t hold up.

The thing is, Kongregate isn’t worried about this because it currently has little effect. If it gets worse, Kongregate will pay more attention.

Originally posted by Gigathorn:

And if you’re not talking for Kongregate, is there someone who can ?

I already mentioned IAmTheCandyman. He’s the one who made the official decision not to do anything.

 
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Topic: Game Programming / What do I do about this Exception? (Programming Beginner)

The error has nothing to do with your code.

Chances are, you forgot to close the game before compiling the second time. It’s also possible that a program like Dropbox was in the middle of syncing it when you compiled.

If all else fails, restarting your computer should fix the problem.

 
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Topic: Tiny Dice Dungeon / Maximizing DPS

Originally posted by BrokenFixer:

This is very much a straw man. You could dynamically adjust your “roll six dice” strategy to five or seven based on monster, and you’d improve at cost of greater effort. But if the point is to keep it simple:

1) Always roll past your threshold of 30.

vs

2) Always roll six dice.

Nope and nope.

You wouldn’t adjust to “five or seven based on the monster.” Sure you want to stop rolling once you have enough damage to kill (+50), but that could be anywhere between one and seven. (Rolling seven is ok, but only if six leaves you just barely short.)

As for the “threshold of 30” nonsense… Jeez, if I stopped after rolling 30, my Green Mind would never roll more than one risky dice!

Originally posted by BrokenFixer:

Incidentally, if you have only one normal die and purely want to maximize damage-per-turn, roll until you reach 20.

I ran some simulations and confirmed this. Rolling until 20 gives an average of ~8.16 damage. (As does rolling until 21.)

Note that rolling 6 dice gives an average of ~8.04 damage.

You can calculate the correct damage threshold for any given dice set, but is it worth it?