Recent posts by aszucs on Kongregate

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Topic: Dream World / 100B AI Damage S2...well no we way off topic now

you should really stop comparing S1 with S2.. at S1 most peoples stronger compared to his lvl as at S2, because S1 is much-much older..
i dont start to list the things why.. but anyone who started to play like 1 year before S2 should know some really hard reason..

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Topic: Dream World / [Joke] Lets make a new Guide for all those newbies.

Rule 13: you should try click on ‘restart’ at the craracter page… especially if you followed the previous rules :)

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Topic: Dream World / 100B AI Damage S2...well no we way off topic now

it can be an achievement too, if you reach something what you dont really wanted to reach.. :)
I mean, AI is good mostly only for XP.. that is why i did 0 damage that time.

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Topic: Epic War Saga / [Guide] Math Strategies

“still, pro gamers have used math in much more complicated games”
i agree.. i like strategy games like civilizations, master of orion, alpha centaury.. etc
you have to caluclate a lot there..

[sure you can calculate things at diablo or at starcraft too.. but they are much less complex.. however realtime can make harder to calculate]

but you usually pick much less challanges to caluclate.. something what can be defined exacltly..
not ‘what is the best way to play’ .. but rather many small [but exact] calculation… what is better then what…
-for example at turn based strategi – you may compare what is better if you research X, then build Y … so at turn 40 i will have … or if i …. then at turn 40 i will have…
some cases easily comparable.. when you say at turn 40 i will have xy, or i will have xy+z.. then you may can proove that 2. is better..
and some cases not really comparable.. like at turn 40, i will have a rock, or a paper, or a scissors… in that case you dont state you calculated witch is better…

-or in a RTS … like starcraft you may calculate with time instead of turn..
real time games usually have much more decisions to choose from .. because time is not dicrete
but you can easyly limit those time based variables… i mean, like stating i can click in an svc less then X sec

i dont think diablo would be the best example for calculations.. [i didnt played with D3.. and it was very long ago when i played with D2, and D1]

but as far as i remember all of these games was designed like the rock-paper-scissors game.. where there is no simple ‘best’ way to play..
but rather some good strategie.. but all of them have some weak side
If it wouldn’t be like this.. PvP would be pointless

And i even dont have problem if someone make a simulation with huge problems… [as this have] .. sure peoples can have any kind of opinions
that undefined ‘best’ may a bit harder to tolerate.. :) its similar when peoples states they know the best way to play with starcraft :)
but when peoples complained, gust4v3 tried to convince them that his results are like facts, because he calculated it with math.. and only a bit more accuracy is needed.

that was the ponit when i joined the conversation

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Topic: Epic War Saga / [Guide] Math Strategies

What is your problem?!
you didnt answered my important questions… i start to feel you didnt even want to answer them..

Please DEFINE ‘best’ !!!!
IF you cant .. how dare you to say you calculate it as mathematician?!
until you do that in exact way.. you cant calcute the best ratio with math…
THAT is a fact !!!
because at math a problem must be [perfectly] exact.. not just i feel this way or that way..
This is 1 of the most important rule of math.. if you dont agree with it.. you lost your way as mathematician.

I never said “Statistics is useless”.. BUT even there the problem must be exactly defined..

‘unstable’ i meant.. your problem is so far from the original, that is almost totally independent from the original gameplay..
even if you manage to define your problem… you should be able to proove some limit to the differences, between your and the original problem
without limits.. i dont know why would we even consider comparing them.. :)

but in your case, we given countless examples.. even where your simuation state perfect victory, but the original game say utterly obliterated

DID you calculate with ‘movin speed’/‘special effect like knocback’/‘attack range’/‘how many enemy they hit at once’/‘how precise their attack is [like arrows can miss small fast enemyes]’?
in the game you have to use them a strategically… those things will decide who win..

FOR example your simulation will calculate that your super powerful [slow/melee] monster slaugter every weakling without much effort.. a perfect victory
But in the game, if the weaklings knocback your strong from a range .. it can never hit… and you lose badly..

So it is not a ‘how accurate?’ problem.. rather an “are they even correlate?” :)

so you can make a statistic how tall average humans now… but if your sample contains only ants.. and have a result like 5mm .. then it wont be a good excuse that it may not accurate enought :)

i never said “so invest your skill points randomly”
DO not dare to state this [because that is a lie].. i already said my opinion..
i said 0:1:0 is a good start.. but at later quests if it wont work, then you will need some defense..
that is what experience show..
BUT we are not blind… if you are stuck in a misson.. you can check wikia/youtube for ideas [where to focus]
and/or can test with the ORIGINAL GAME with differnet items.. sending different units, to check what units the enemy use to counter yours..
and if you think you found a way what can work,.. only need more damage, or more survivability, then you can calculate with exact hp/atk/def values..

there was no incoherence in my posts
you can play with words in my post saying it is ‘possible’ .. it just need about 10000000 year to do that.
but it is pointless.. :)

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Topic: Epic War Saga / [Guide] Math Strategies

“Not true, you CAN calcute the best ratio with math. The question here is ‘how’?”
practically, NO, you can’t.
if you think elseway, then please define ‘best’.. but be exact as math require…
AND make sure others will think ‘best’ the same way you do.. :)
even if you could acomplish this.. you should calculate with so much samples.. that is practically impossible with todays technology, in realistic time..
Developers made it this way.. because the game would be designed badly, if such a question could be answered with 1 x/y/z ratio.. :)

“Simulations are not useful?”
you simulate your own created ‘game’… not the actual game.. the result is really unstable.. it can be totally different from the reality..

“I pointed out a practical ratio (basically, 0:1:0)” "Did you try to use the ratio 0:1:0 ever?
that is a good point.. noone argues about that atk is the most important..
yes, i used 0:1:0 too.. but if pure attack is not enought [when you are not stong enought for your enemy] you recommend HP .. not defense
for example .. explain how you win [safely] at 8:6 when pure attack is not enough [somewhere under 2000 statpoints].. at the current version.. like a simple player:
without items that need crystal/epic stone.. not the 6 dragon steak way :) [may 1 fatality drink is ok, as you got 1 from 7:6]… without the need of ‘luck’/hack
even +1000HP wont give much survivability.. because even if you would got only 3000HP from item, then +1000HP will give your units only about +20%hp..

“1) I did not simulated with items;”
that alone is enought… even at the previous example.. i mentioned 1 fatality drink.. that alone give 5000HP.. when you dont even have 2000 statpoints.. :)
“2) I did simulated with units stats "
sorry, then i remembered wrong.. good question what is crap unit
“3) I did simulated considering the elementals” “same unit”
that is almost nothing..

somewhere you wrote:
“Note that elemental multiplier (ie, a unit playing against a weak/strong unit) is a strategical decision made by the players, it’s metagame.”
the same is true to stats at PvP… so.. should we eliminate this metagame thing from the caluclations too? :D:D

and dont forget.. you decided what is crap unit.. and you decided too, that players always use same elemet units..
[like if everyone would have every element monster, just to counter everything..

somewhere you wrote that too:
“(so, you’ll have 200 ties levels).”
if i understand right you didnt calculated with lvl4000 vs lvl3900
so you dont simulate stronger player vs weaker..
i dont ask you to calculate that.. but this can effect the result too.. and im sure peoples fight not olny against same lvl players.. :)

all in all … those are decisions what effect the result too…
usually they are part of your ‘best’ definition…
best against same lvl possible random players? [includin everithing]
best against same lvl possible clever player? [not including 1:0:0, or crap units, has no elemental weakness etc..]
best against all lvl actual player? [that include lot of crap thing but not as much as the worst of random]
is best who ‘win’ most times… or who dont ‘lose’ most time? or whos win-lose is the greatest?
do it effect best if you win faster or if you lose slower? [i mean even if you can win in 20 minutes.. you may decide not to do that :)]

that is why i said this result is really unstable

“But, what is the point here? Scam people to what?”
i dint said you have any interest in it.. i didnt even said if you would be aware of it or not..
you can give false informations to others without knowing you do..

“Lol, I’m serious: I still don’t understand what you mean.”
ok then pick some units randomly.. check their basic stats and aptitudes..
for example.. this is twin salamanders..
stats: 3948/915/610
aptitude: 200/95/75 [that means 1hero hp/atk/def incrase unit stat by this amount]
divide stat by aptitude:
3948/200=19.74 that means you need 1974hero_HP to increase its HP by 3948
915/ 95=9.63 so 963hero_atk is needed to double its attack
610/ 75=8.13 so 813hero_def to double it

twin diablo is:
856/ 90=9.51
654/ 80=8.17

fire succubi

for most units this ratio is somewhere arount ~20,~10,~8

if your hero have 4000/4000/4000 then twin salamander will become 11948/4715/3610.. so it stats multiplied by:
4715/ 915=5.15
3610 /610=5.91

i hope you understand this way .. :)

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Topic: Epic War Saga / [Guide] Math Strategies

i already answered most of your questions in my original post.. :)

“If you really wanna help, try to define your premises”
“we can make this problem exponentially harder to solve, but now you’re asking to do exactly that”
I dont want to help with your calculation.. i SAID … you can’t calculate the best ratio with math… because as i said:
“you create a different (!!) problem.. and you solved that different problem.. "
i rather suggest you to not try to simulate it.. it will not give any useful result..
[sure you can simulate.. if you want.. but you should mention somehow that this result is not really useable at practice.. or else it will be a good way to scam peoples]

“Of course, but you also can never use either defense or attack, and still finish the game as well.” “When I rebirthed, I have beat the 10-6 at level 38”
I SAID: “who dont grind like bots” .." they will need some defense [to finish the quest as soon as possible] and they can simply avoid HP.."
I was speaking from average players who try to finish quest at FIRST time (ASAP).. without paying to the game…without grinding extremely much.. etc..
your lvl38 example include that you already grinded to lvl9000 once.. sure you had ‘not average items/units’..

“Besides, how can you say that ‘you removed a lot of [maybe useful] elements, and you made a lot of decision’ if I didn’t explained yet what I did exactly?”
You explained much enought to state this… you said you dont calculate with items, with units stats, with elements.. [all of them alone have the possibilities to change the result to the opposite]
[and i think you didnt calculated how units attack.. like pegasus knockback earth dragon.. even if stat say it 1 hitkill pegauses.. but it may never reach to that point]
you mentioned you tested every 50th lvl from 0-10000 [that is a decision too]
and if you make a statistic, you always have to make a lot of decisions… to decide what samples you include.. how you weight them (!!) etc-etc…

that is why common peoples dont believe so easyly for statistics.. many times media public statistic result without mentioning any more info..
but those ‘more info’ are vital.. they could change the result to the opposite [if they would decide elseway].. so statistics can be used to scam peoples without a lie…

“I did not understand what you mean.”
i meant.. if you put 4000 points in hp/atk/def, a general unit stat will become from x/y/z to ~ 3x/5y/6z ..
i said it against your: “Apart from the HP/attack/def’ formulas, there are the unit aptitudes too; in most of the cases, HP_apt > Atk_apt > Def_apt, so it also helps to understand (not to proof, obv) the results”

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Topic: Epic War Saga / [Guide] Math Strategies

looks like you dont understand.. [or somehow you do..]
“because it’d be exponentially harder to do so”
exactly that is the problem… it will maybe/almost impossibly harder..
stating x/y/z is the best … is an extremely hard state… not mentioning the problem to define ‘best’. [best for best player? best for average player? etc… then what is an average player? :)]
even to define [or just to decide] what do we want to calculate.. even that could be extremely complex.

you can have an opinion.. you can calculate things… but if others not agree.. you should not try to convince them acting like if you would prooved it with math..

most peoples complain about that hp>def thing because while they try to finish the game [to reach 10:6] they will need some defense [to finish the quest as soon as possible] and they can simply avoid HP..
who dont grind like bots, will try some quests lof of times, different ways.. you recommend 1:2:0 .. but the best walkthroughts [what is closest to reach] have defense [and attack.. but usually 0 HP]

the problem is .. while you made your statistic, you removed a lot of [maybe useful] elements, and you made a lot of decision.. what you may not aware of.. but others may think differenty

about removede elements:
it is ok to “modelling the problem” but if you remove elements what can effect the result.. then you create a different (!!) problem.. and you solved that different problem..
even the “Elemental advantage/disadvantage” is possibly too a result changing element… because different units with differnet elemental have diferent stat ratio.. like earth dragon have maybe the best defense

about decision:
i wont tell you “which ones should I consider in the simulation?”
if you dont mention anything about items when you said ‘best ratio’, then peoples will think your calculation include every possible items..
but if you didnt calculated with items the you decided to calculate with the ‘nothing’ items.. :)

you decided to calculate from lvl0 to lvl10000 [or similar] linearly
peoples would think you made this calculations for them.. BUT about half of your samples is lvl5000+.. while most peoples will never reach lvl5000.. :)
and dont forget that, at lower lvl, items means much more as at higher lvl.

So we dont ask you to calculate the ‘impossible’.. we just noted that pracite shows different result.. we did give some hints what can make your result different

i think there are some other things you may misunderstand.. [or just not aware]
“unit aptitudes too; in most of the cases, HP_apt > Atk_apt > Def_apt”
those aptitudes differences comes from their stat differences too.. i mean for most of the units:
HP/ HP_apt ~ 20
Atk/Atk_apt ~ 10
Def/Def_apt ~ 8
So it may works in the opposit way you think…
because to double:
-unit HP you need ~2000 HP..
-unit Atk you need ~1000 Atk
-unit Def you need ~800 Def

and also items prefer HP too… they may generally follow the mentioned ratio.. [not checked] .. with the exception of foods.. you can get 5000 or 8000 hp from 1 food if needed..

and about:
“I know, some mathematicians argue that ‘statistical proof’ isn’t a proof”
at math.. everything must be exact.. and the definition of proof [and the ‘exact’] should be too.. :)
sure you can get a result like ‘X is true with 99% probability’… and sure many peoples in life will shorten it ‘X is true’.. but in math they always mention the probability.. like you did too.

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Topic: Epic War Saga / [Guide] Math Strategies

there is a lof of useful information in this thread.. thx for that

But that optimal “hp/attack/defense” ratio is surely not true

your “25 billions of games simulated” not cover the whole game… because equipments, actual unitstats, and even the way they attack, can change the result..
and even if you would calculate every case.. i would say it is still not the result we need, as there are a lot of case in that calculations what peoples would not use..

and if you “work as a statistical consultant” and graduated from math [like i did] then you should also agree that any proof that is not complete, is not a proof.. you cant base anything on that

when you mentioned that “Minimax problem”.. that is really important.. i agree that you dont try to calculate that.. because that would be a waste of time for only an online game… but it can totally change your statistically calculated result.

I agree with all other peoples.. it would be better to remove that infinity defense vs infinity HP thing. it is a perfect way to scam peoples… because those limits has nothing to do with the conclusion…
it would be same true to say “Conclusion: That’s why we state that Attack < HP < Defense.” :)

and in practical use.. to complete some of the harder quest at lower lvl [=with low stats], will need you to focus on defense… they are just examples.. but they are sure points in the game…

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Topic: Dream World / Dream world Down? (resolved)

i was able to enter a few minutes before, and it works now.. [refreshed some times] …maybe im a bit lucky…

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Topic: Dream World / December expansion

64bit integers should not be a big problem for lvl100+.. it maybe more work.. but you always can emulate bigger integer variables.. you just need an array of integers.. and some function to add/substact/compare/… and if flash support classes [im not sure now] you can even pack it into a class..

however it can be more complex depending on how is the actual code…

Originally posted by AlbertoV05:

People will play a game that is difficult longer than they will a game on “god” mode.

there are a lot of games, abandoned, because developers tried to force players to pay…
you can find a lot of dead online game at kongregate…
you also know it.. you just want to kill this game too.. i just dont know why…

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Topic: Dream World / Defense.

Originally posted by Nakazawa:

No. I told you. Same level, same minilevel, same enchants on armor, same armor, same EVERYTHING. Just 100+ def less.

“352 def – 30k” “248 def 31k”. i hope you dont want to state that +def increase damage. :)

here is some fresh exact (!) data:
FP vs lvl89.86 with DL,maxLilith,10%boss protection:
Frozen Pride:___29893-32028__|__31905-34183_
Ice Saw:________7472-_8006__|___7975-8545
only 70def difference [my elf ring have 70 enchant at S2 :)] at a higher def range…
so at 250-350, the damage diff should be much more…

if you still not believe it, test it again.. BUT don’t stop at the first damage.. dont round them up/down… you get the min/max values… when max/min ~1.0714

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Topic: Dream World / Defense.

you may miscalculated, or forgot something… [like different armor boss protection]

i made a lot of testing long ago.. defense do reduce damage.. [not increase :)]
and even… i think 100def difference [at 250-350] would be more then 7% diference in damage..
[don’t forget FP has a random multiplier ~266-285 .. that is ~100%-107%]

in my log i found something with similar def… at lvl86.9 and 353 def: reducing 2/4 def increased FP’s max damage by ~72/145.. from ~39210 to ~39282/39355.. [with DL+maxLilith+10%BossProt from armor]

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Topic: Dream World / Defense.

Originally posted by Nakazawa:

Had 352 def before. Lolith hit me for 34k, Frozen Pride for 30k.
I have 248 def now. Lolith hits for 34k and Frozen Pride for 31k.

Does this make any sense? Defense is not that useful, so is this normal?

surely you was higher lvl with the 248def as with the 352def.
there is a penalty, if you attack higher lvl bosses.. they have some bonus damage against you..
every 10% xp you gain [while under the enemy lvl] will reduce the enemy damage.

i think it is designed so you wont be able to survive bosses the first lvl you can meet with them.. but you can survive them if you are same/higher lvl…
higher defense just give you the capability to survive them earlyer [with lower lvl]

note: quickness dont have better damage reduction.. only its +defesne reduce damages.

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Topic: Dream World / July Update

Originally posted by claytonde:

LOL blackmarket is full of crap items!;s=6

someone bought the orc ring then? :)

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Topic: Dream World / ***spoiler alert***

Originally posted by CaptNuevoPotos:

My time machine allowed me to jump back to April 2010 and create this account for the sole purpose of commenting in this thread this week. You caught me.

Tell me.. exactly.. what connection must be between “the join date from your profile data [of apr 1]” and that “you should make new accounts more frequently”?! :)
and that would be still really far from the original topic.. that you trolling here too obviously.. :)

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Topic: Dream World / ***spoiler alert***

still trolling? :)
multiple post after each others.. like if you never heard from “edit post” feature..?
especially if they don’t contain any new information/content? [and yes.. ‘nothing’ is really not related to this thread topic :)]

you should make new accounts more frequently.. because, you trolling so obviously.. that noone will take you serious.. :)
most sites moderators would not be so kind and forigving… be glad, some of your post, still exist.

Originally posted by ihatethisfing:

why are you posting pics of whats to come? WHAT THE HELL ARE PICS GOING TO TELL ME? NOT A DAMN THING. shutup with the pics and post whats going to be released that i can actually do stuff to/with

i agree pics don’t give much information [in this case]… i think kingk published those pics only as a sign.. to show players, that the expansion is still on the way as they planned.
and the last 2 picture .. they was sure just a joke from someone.. :)

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Topic: Dream World / ***spoiler alert***

Originally posted by CaptNuevoPotos:

And I can’t make any sense out of your post.

Thx for admiting that you are here only for trolling.. :)

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Topic: Dream World / ***spoiler alert***

Originally posted by CaptNuevoPotos:

Yep, well said. When stats are free….when coins are overflowing…and the only goal/endgame is level 99….then it outta be so cod dragging tough to get there that people give up.

-stats aren’t free [you can get them with money.. or with hard work/time .. and time==money]
-coins aren’t overflowing.. [except if you dont play enought.. and the update auction house may cahnge it anyway]
-only goal is not lvl99… i don’t try to reach that.. i rather try to get more stats..
-endgame.. if you mean.. the point where there is nothing new in the game… every game has an end.. as the game contents are always limited some ways [at 1 given time].. expansions destined to prolong the game…

so i dont see any logic in your complain

Originally posted by mrwiggs8:

Just so you know, CaptNuevoPotos and Alb are the same people. :)

thanks. :)

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Topic: Dream World / ***spoiler alert***

Originally posted by CaptNuevoPotos:

Someone was wringing their hands because Alb yawned at the update. It’s a sad state of affairs around here that you can’t say anything bad about a flash game. I find painting walls to be incredibly easy….but I wouldn’t think of doing it everyday! I could reach level 99 quite easily….but what’s the point when the goal is made easier every update? It’s like busting your ass digging a ditch…and then the city comes along and finishes the last ten feet of it! If I’d just have waited…they’d have done it all.

The game needs to evolve to be good. But people forget that evolution is a destructive force.

Originally posted by ihatethisfing:

i dont know what those posts below the pics said but the pics themselves have boobs showing, way to go admin(s) for letting porn stay!

i don’t agree.
you can say bad things from this game here.. your post is a proof for that.. [as it is not moderated.]

sure you can speak freely here.. just like in the life, you can do what you want freely… but with limitations..
i hope you do agree that there must be some rules… [like noone should rob your property.. etc..]

some people try to broke rules in a complex way.. trying to go around the rules.. and when caught, they trying lie they are innocent..

Alb seems to be like them… because he didn’t even tried to defend his ‘opinion’ .. he just complainin mostly in write only mode.. it should give you a hint, that he know he is wrong.. he is not here to share/discuss a logical opinion.. he may have some other interest in it, what he don’t dare to admit.

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Topic: Dream World / Make the game so hard a cat can't scratch it.

“You’re right. I didn’t care.”
So you admit, that you only complaining here in write only mode.. :)

“I can keep coin and gem high enough to do what I want”
“E gemming would be a waste since i never run out”
if you dont play you will never run out from energy/coins.. :)
somehow i always low on coins… but if you know an exploit, then report that ..

i know high lvl players too, who gem energy… especially after the 5k mist limit appeared [they did it even before that]
sure you could reach the limit.. because you stated: “I can do 5 FW runs in 26:15”

“combination of 30 gems of epot/mboxes/crystals/ally skillbooks/guardian dolls/arena passes in 2 runs of FW”
if dolls would be priced 100000 gems, would you calculate that you can get the same with 10 min play as others with spending $10.000?
i wouldnt buy a doll.. even if it would priced 1doll/1gem… especially if an energy refill [with 200E] cost only 12 gem.

skill books can be selled for some coins.. because peoples complained those books worth exactly nothing for them.

funny, you did not mentioned that you get lot of dust there too.. and it cost 5gems at the guardian :)

you should never calculate with buying price only…
some peoples may buy the same stuff for 100x price, because they rich/lazy/??.. but that wont make the item worth more

[my previous post was stangely vanished when i tried to edit that..]

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Topic: Dream World / Make the game so hard a cat can't scratch it.

looks like edit dos not really work here…

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Topic: Dream World / Make the game so hard a cat can't scratch it.

“10 minutes in most cases. :)”
you are right … opening an mbox require only like 1 sec.. so most time when i find a pill, i do it in 1 sec too.. :) [if the game is not lagging and my mouse is positioned neart to the mbox’s use button…]

i just try to imagine the ~1mbox/1minute drop rate too what would be required by the 1pill/10minutes… :) …then 1 hit killing the last MA boss… :)

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Topic: Dream World / Make the game so hard a cat can't scratch it.

looks like you dont even care about what i write.. because you didnt answered..

but about: “Do I look gemmed?”
would you look like gemmed if there would be no free peoples here?
you would look even more weaker if we would compare you to the peoples with stats of 1000+ :)

Someone already told you.. it is not enought to gem a little and watch… you need to play too.. or gem much more…

“A five dollars is about ten minutes of game-play maybe less”
i want your extremely good luck.. :)

5$ ~ 50kred ~ 30-38gem+60-76LP ~ (if you buy LP from gem) 500-1000LP
there is 40kred=40gem too, and stronger player get more +LP/gem.. gem→LP is not the best way to use gems in some cases.. and maybe there are some other better way … but i calculate with this lower (but sure reachable) numbers

so you say peoples can get at least 500-1000LP/10 minutes..?! :)

most peoples would say you lucky even if you can get it in 1 day of playing
And of course you need a lot of coins… for misting.. [because energy/coin is a limitation]

if your guild mate gem-rage bosses where you just freely hit 10% for coins/etc… then even if you are free.. dont forget.. someone payed for your advantage…

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Topic: Dream World / Make the game so hard a cat can't scratch it.

AlbertoV05: you can think it serious… you want to be stonger but you missed the point

what will happens if playmage change it to a pay only game?
You will be stonger then any free players.. yes that is true..
but if free players leave the game.. you wont be able to feel you are stonger then most peoples because you payed… because all other players here will be payers…

so in order to keep you feel you are strong because you payed, there need to be free players too.

so a ‘free’ game needs both.. payers and free players.. they just need to find a good balance.. when payers can feel they can be stonger if they pay.. but still free players can feel they can compete if they play good [/work hard?] enought.
i think playmage do a good job about balances… i saw a lot of ‘free’ games die fast as they try to force peoples to pay.