Recent posts by wpatter6 on Kongregate

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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / [New Feature] Introducing Private Guild Forums!

Maybe guild chat rooms when everyone’s K+ runs out :D

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / [New Feature] Introducing Private Guild Forums!

Cool

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Failed raid crediting

I appreciate the contribution by all who choose to not derail the intent of the thread.

@Adun – There was a time not long ago when participating in farm groups was a requirement to be competitive. Regardless of their intent, the rules laid down by the leaders of a farm group are a much more strict requirement to participate (and therefore compete in pvp). As I said before, the raid catcher system was built to fix what I and many other people consider to be wrong with farm groups, and in many ways does just that. This doesn’t mean that everything about farm groups is wrong — look at their success rates vs raids in the RC as the obvious pertinent example. It’s still unclear to me why we must be held to an opposite standard from farm groups when it comes to submission requirements (let alone the fact that even if we went with the most strict scenario, submitting any raid will give you access while it’s alive, regardless of if it fails or not).

As well, using the raid catcher (or any other script/system ever created for any purpose) means you agree to the rules of it. Again, why is this suddenly a different standard than agreeing to the rules of a farm group? In a world without chat listeners, farm groups reign supreme, so you are forced to agree to their rules if you want to remain competitive. Our rules are infinitely more lenient and built to fit as many play styles, and schedules as possible (which is more than anyone could say for any farm group). All we ask is equal contribution for equal returns. If a new player is unable to do this, they need to either work to reach a point where they can equally contribute before expecting the world to be handed to them on a silver platter, or find another way to play that works for them.

@claytonde – Unfortunately, the devs have already said they need more proof than IP addresses to identify an alt account. For your second point, I don’t see any dev disapproval of farm groups, which “ban” or “punish” people for any number of arbitrary reasons, and the devs also have no problem with a guild leader or officer kicking someone out of their guild for any reason whatsoever, and that is obviously “punishment” as well. If you weigh the couple of people (who expect the world for free, and probably don’t pay into the game anyway) who would quit because they can no longer get away with getting something for nothing, against the multitudes of people who have said directly and publicly that they would have quit the game long ago were it not for our system, you’ll see the main reason why the devs have approved our system. I do appreciate your concern about the devs approval, but I doubt they’ll be changing their mind about our system, at least until their “communities” plans are made live.

For those of you who claim that the raid catcher is so pervasive that not using it (or being locked out of one size for some amount of time) means you can’t play the game competitively, here’s some stats for you: In our database, there are 24509 unique people who have been seen in Kongregate chat since we began listening. Of those, 4449 have requested raids from our server at least once. Far less than 1/5 of the total population has ever used it. Take a look at Facebook and you’ll see that farm group participation greatly overwhelms that proportion, and even on Kongregate I’m sure that ratio was not far off in the farm groups heyday. So claiming that farm groups can’t compete with the raid catcher is just silly, and points more to people preferring the convenience of our system than anything else.

I’d also like to point out that the testing I’ve done so far on the lenient method I mentioned before has resulted in very few people actually reaching a point where they’d be locked out, and most were only for a couple of hours before another raid of theirs succeeded and they were back in the safe range. It has, however, resulted in hundreds of people who would have received a “warning” message and raid success help links. This testing will continue.

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Failed raid crediting

@smurf In response to your points:

1 – your going to have to clarify, and tell me specifically what the raid catcher is doing that I “called out” raid pools to be doing. Personal attacks and vague accusations are pointless, and not really helpful in any kind of discussion. Not sure what you mean to accomplish, other than make me not want to take your (complete lack of) suggestions into consideration. Again, cool off a bit, or you’ll just be ignored, regardless of whatever silly acronyms you want to throw at me.

2 – When have I ever attacked “farmers”? I’m sure I would be considered a farmer as well, though I’m not sure what definition you are using. Perhaps you mean “farm groups”, which hold back the community as a whole by delaying raid summoning, casting garbage magics on raids, and forcing people to conform to what the organizers want, and when they want it. If your definition of a farm group differs and you think that makes me a hypocrite, I’m at least glad you seem to enjoy your fantasy world.

Final point – none of what you have said is relevant to the discussion topic, and will not be responded to by me until it is. I could care less if you disagree with the raid catcher as a concept, because as long as it has the dev’s approval, it’s not going anywhere just because of one hot-head on a forum discussion. I have been and am working to fix what I (and many others) consider to be wrong with farm groups, and for some reason you think that means I am to be held to a different standard than them. If you offer no solution or suggestion to the perceived issues you so vaguely seem to want to toss around, you have to live with what you get or don’t use it. If you think I’m calling you a child, feel free to stop acting like one.

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Failed raid crediting

@Smurf I’m not sure what you are saying, or your stance on the OP, though I assume from your tone that you’re against it. Maybe take a few breaths, call your anger management counselor, and try to explain yourself a little clearer if you want your opinion to be understood and taken seriously.

@Kegfarms the pastebin was usually posted in room 1 first. I was lazy, and already expending a ton of effort to get the thing out there. It was not shared within our guild or any group of friends, but the largest chat room in the game. This is the simple fact — there was no conspiracy. Besides, if it were such an advantage, why did we ever turn on the raid catcher and make it public in the first place? Why didn’t we just keep our advantage to ourselves? I can guarantee you there was NEVER any threat of “perma-ban” or whatever the propaganda floating around is claiming. Simply: it was a huge pain in the ass for me, and frankly, it wasn’t fair for people outside room 1, I will agree. This was a limitation of the state of our technology at the time, and I am very glad those days are over. I’m not really sure why the pastebin is even relevant in this discussion, so please stick to the topic at hand.

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Failed raid crediting

@kevoink the day we got the listener running was the day I posted in the forums and told every chat room about my pastebin, which I wasted many hours of my life keeping as up to date and clean as I could. So the answer to your question “how long did you collect, hit and hoard all raids with your friends” is 0 days. Unless everyone in every chat room and on the forums at that time is my friend, which is awful sweet of you to imply.

Also, I could care less if anyone wants to run a bot in every room, for all of eternity. I will mute it and forget it’s existence. Sadly, that’s not how bots work, they’re simply used as a way to get an upper hand in the one or two rooms they happen to be running in. How exactly do I or any “friend” of mine receive an upper hand with the raid catcher system — it is available to everyone and the exact same rules apply to me as apply to anyone else in the game who chooses to use it. Unless again, everyone on Kong and AG is my friend, and in that case, I truly appreciate your warm and fuzzy side, you just brightened my day, thank you :)

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Failed raid crediting

Thank you all for your input.

@kevoink I’d like to note that this proposed change is only due to several people (repeatedly) bringing the issue to me, and not because I am a “control freak” as you say. I’d also like to reiterate what xiandra says, RC is not required to play DotD, and is not the entire “community of DotD on Kong”. Your participation in it is a choice. JHunz and I put the system together, and can do with it what we feel is right. We have chosen to stop making decisions without input from the community, hence this post. If you think we are “policing” things, take a close look at any farm group ever, and let me know how lenient they are to someone who submits what they consider a junk raid (which is a much more narrow definition than what we’re proposing btw).

@HReaper I did mention that the change would not prevent people from using alt accounts to cheat, and as I said in the OP, that is an issue that 5pg must deal with and can’t be done with the Raid Catcher. However, we can require that those people actually contribute to our system equally as everyone else does, instead of intentionally poisoning the raid supply. Summoning a Tenebra or any other risky raid is absolutely not bad summoner etiquette, unless it’s neglected and allowed to fail (which it sounds like you didn’t do). Certain raids will require more effort, so summoning one that does and then ignoring it is bad summoner etiquette. As I said before, if one doesn’t have time to get proper magics applied and occasionally check in on their raids, they always have the option of summoning a smaller or more popular one that is guaranteed not to fail in order to gain access to that size.

@xiandra thanks for your support. I agree that a blanket punishment for failed raids is not the right solution, and have been testing a more lenient solution that would only remove the person’s cooldown credit for failed raids after they’ve failed more than one, and they can repair their “rating” by submitting raids that succeed. Anyone with a less than perfect rating (IE, have recently failed a raid, and haven’t fixed it by submitting successful raids) would have some kind of notification with a link to the proposed etiquette guide. This is in an extremely preliminary testing phase, and the numbers will probably be tweaked (but as you say, not made public) but the setup seems fair.

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Failed raid crediting

@vinnie thanks for your input. If you choose to only play for a few minutes a day, there is always the option of summoning a raid that absolutely will not fail, regardless of troll magics (IE any glyph or flute farm raids). I agree, many people in this game (regardless of what room you are in) are not always very nice to noobs, and that has been one of the main things I’ve gotten out of this thread is that education is probably the most important thing that needs to happen. However, I still believe that people will choose to remain uneducated if there is no real incentive for them to learn, and this is where not rewarding people for repeatedly (and sometimes intentionally) failing raids comes into play. It may sound heavy handed, but I think we have a plan for a fair and lenient way of doing this.

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Failed raid crediting

@ElectronicPigeon I like both of those ideas, and they would make sense to be a part of said guide or our stats page. Perhaps in the script as well, we shall see how complex it gets. I’ve thought before of having ways to survey people, but it’s hard to say if the data could be trusted… It would be interesting to ask people what their favorite raid of each size to hit is (and maybe funny to ask some other stuff, who knows?), though of course the data could be easily skewed and could only really be used as a loose reference if anything. All good ideas though, thanks.

By the way, if anyone wanted to start drafting up something along the lines of a guide to raid etiquette (or knows of anything existing already), my free time to work on things game-related is pretty limited at the moment. It’d probably be good to have a few perspectives on that anyway, so perhaps ideas could be thrown out in this thread as to what makes good summoners

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Failed raid crediting

@PS: Perhaps something like that would make sense as well, thanks for the idea. The funny thing here, what we’re proposing would absolutely NOT prevent someone from continuing to cheat the system in the exact same way, except that they would simply be required to summon raids that would actually die instead of intentional fails. Or basically, not poison the water supply.

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Failed raid crediting

@twostep: Thanks for your input. I think there’s a lot of dissenting opinion in your guild that you seem unaware of. I’m also curious about who we have punished? I believe I started this thread to get people’s opinion and ensure our course of action is not against the good of the community. Resulting of it, I’m definitely leaning towards a very lenient strategy, which would not punish one who was taking risks or was un-educated in summoner etiquette, but also not rewarding someone who is consistently failing raids.

@ProblemSleuth: Thanks as well. You may be correct in that a blanket solution where all raids are treated equally is not the best. I was hoping to avoid “weighting” value towards or away from different raid types, but perhaps if that weight was based on actual data, it might be valid. This might also open certain loopholes, so I’ll have to consider it carefully.

@ElectronicPigeon: Thank you for your valid points. One thing I’ll mention, we are already requiring people to do something to access raids. Our intent was for that something to be equal contribution, and a failed raid is not equal contribution. I have also considered what you mention, that failing raids could be a result of a script-caused raid over-abundance. This may be true, but is also in part poor summoning etiquette. Part of the guide I envision (which I think may be the proper first step, and if it solves the problem, may indeed be all that’s necessary) would be advising people on when to summon high HP raids, and when to avoid it. If there are too many z10 raids and not enough are dying, summoning and submitting another z10 and then ignoring it into oblivion is often not the right thing to do to contribute effectively to the community, unless they intend to do what needs to be done to make sure the raid succeeds.

@Trollfarms: Things to say but nothing to add? Why am I not surprised.

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Failed raid crediting

MWL, I appreciate your input, but your argument boils down to saying that it is too popular, and that because more people prefer this option to farm groups, we’re the bad guys. We’re not “squeezing” people for anything.

You make a choice to either participate in our system, or you can just as easily choose not to. Accommodating our system to farm group schedules has never been our intention.

I know you think this is rhetoric, but there’s the facts, plain and simple. Just because you prefer the good ol’ days when our system combined with farm groups ballooned a small segment’s growth potential over the rest of the game’s population, doesn’t mean that everyone does.

Playing on Facebook is always an option if that sounds like it fits your play style better. Others feel differently, and can make their own choice as well. If we turned off the raid catcher today, we would not have the same community as Facebook in 10 months, or even 10 years. I’m sure you know this.

I’m not sure it matters what we call it btw :P

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Failed raid crediting

@minersail: another option would be to use the search by poster field in the script and type in your kong name.

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Failed raid crediting

@pigrat: I forgot to put it in the OP but mentioned later, we will put measures in place to allow for forgiveness during (and probably shortly after) ER or WR times. We are also considering making it in such a way that you could fail one raid every month or so, so if you wanted to try a more “risky” raid, it wouldn’t be so strict. This may make sense, in being less strict but still nudging people in the right direction. We might try it, though it would be more effort to code.

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Failed raid crediting

@Smurf: I agree, it is wrong to lock people out if they don’t summon specific raids (aka, how farm groups operate). However, failing to be a responsible summoner and having your raid fail means it was either terribly managed, and/or the community as a whole rejected the raid, and one should not be rewarded for it. This is not a decision made by, nor is it even remotely controlled by one person, but by the entire kongregate dotd community.

Farm groups require contribution, and so does the raid catcher, plain and simple. Not only do failed raids contribute nothing, but every person that hits a failed raid is screwed out of the stam/exp they spent on it, meaning that the community is weaker as a whole every time a raid fails. Discouraging raid failure is important in any raid sharing system.

We are not telling people what raids to summon at all, people will still be given import rights for summoning ANY RAID. If the community decides that raid is not properly managed or just not worthwhile in general and the raid fails, that person will not be rewarded with access to that size of raid until they can summon another.

I’m open to other suggestions, but this plan seems to make the most sense to me, as well as most others

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Failed raid crediting

@root you’re right I’m sure, every loophole we close causes plenty of backlash. I’d hope the people summoning L mard would realize we’re not telling them what raids to summon, but to make sure if they summon a junk raid, that it has to die. As I said before, it’s more about encouraging proper summoner etiquette, though I’m sure people will choose to see it in such a way as to make us the bad guys. I can live with that personally :)

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Failed raid crediting

@Goontra — Spoke with you in chat, and I’m still not sure how this differs from the current system, the RC expiration timer already starts when the raid dies. The proposal here is to immediately expire when a raid fails.

Something I forgot to mention in the OP is forgiveness for raids failed during and directly after WR’s

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Failed raid crediting

@slowbug without direct access to 5pg’s user database (which would obviously be a big no-no) we have no information about who is the true summoner of the raid.

@pawelt yes, they summon L tyr, cara, or other raids that most people have filtered and put bad magics on them. It’s really not hard to summon a raid that will fail. I doubt they would start killing their raids, they are doing this to gain an advantage, and soloing a tyr is not going to help with that.

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Failed raid crediting

Hello all. Thought I’d start a thread to discuss an issue that we’re working on fixing with the Raid Catcher system, which has to do with failed raids. Basically, the fact is, when a person submits a raid which fails either because it’s not a desirable raid, or they don’t maintain the magics properly, they are not contributing to, and in fact hurting the community.

The main issue is that we’ve been having several reports of people using alt accounts to summon raids that they know will fail, and then submitting them with their main account so they can participate in farm groups as well as RC, continuing to have an unfair advantage over the rest of the population while not contributing at all.

Another issue is just general education and encouraging of responsible summoning to help further benefit the community as a whole.

Personally, I’d prefer to find a way to reward people for being good summoners instead of punishing bad ones, but we have yet to figure out a good way to accomplish that, and it’d really be best if that was something done by the devs in game.

The solution we have would be to not give access to RC raids, or credit submission (of that size) during the cool down when a raid fails. We are thinking it would be fair to just give a warning the first time, and possibly offer some info on how to avoid raids failing, in the case where newbies are simply unaware of proper summoner etiquette.

After discussing this with a few people, we’ve found there are a number of other things to consider. One is that this really doesn’t solve the issue of people using alt accounts to gain access, but at least it does require them to actually contribute. The alt account issue is truly something the devs must stand behind their ToS and crack down on it for that to be truly resolved. Another issue is if someone submits another person’s raid (accidentally or intentionally), they are unable to remove bad magics and in that way, can’t help ensure the raid will succeed. I’m not sure that we’d want to actually make any provisions for this, because it’s really no different (in our eyes) from making use of an alt account to gain access.

Anyway, I think there’s an opportunity here to use our tool to improve raid quality in general, without being as restrictive as farm groups. I’d like to get some community feedback on this issue, any ideas or considerations are welcome, thanks.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / New Kongregate Version: Speeding Up Page Loads

I think several script features he mentioned would not require much maintenance if implemented as a part of the site. This change broke the way that userscripts are forced to initialize because of the way userscripts work, and not specific features. If these features were a part of the base code of the website, they would not necessarily be impacted by a change like this.

Also, the reason that userscripts don’t work on Explorer and other browsers is not because something the script is doing wouldn’t work on IE, it’s because userscripts cannot be installed on IE in the same way as other browsers. Incorporating the features into the site would benefit people who can’t install scripts more than anyone, since that’s the only way they could ever hope to have those features.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / New Kongregate Version: Speeding Up Page Loads

When our script initializes, it checks for certain resources and if it doesn’t find them, it waits a second and checks again before initializing. The only thing we changed was adding the check for the holodeck._chat_commands object to the resources it checks.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / New Kongregate Version: Speeding Up Page Loads

Nevermind to my previous question, it appears our quick fix of checking for the existence of the holodeck._chat_commands object before initializing the script does indeed work when your page is loaded on a tab that is not a chat tab. In case anyone was wondering.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / New Kongregate Version: Speeding Up Page Loads

Thanks for answering quickly, I’m curious, is there a simple way to identify that it’s not activated and force the holodeck to activate in our scripts if the page doesn’t load up on the chat tab?

 
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Topic: Kongregate / New Kongregate Version: Speeding Up Page Loads

Hi, did you change something with the holodeck? We are getting some very strange behavior from a userscript after this update. The holodeck.js file is throwing an error “Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property ‘reload’ of undefined”

 
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Topic: Dawn of the Dragons: General / Tagging for Troops

Really, “Your script encourages tagging”? “Intelligent people and experienced gamers tag raids”?

I smell a troll. The game wasn’t made for tagging, and you’re really not helping yourself or anyone else by making raids fail. Have fun with your little scam though buddy.