Recent posts by vikaTae on Kongregate

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Topic: Serious Discussion / Should anti-vax people be banned from traveling and having children?

Originally posted by RollerCROWster:

Anti-vax = anti vaccination.

These are people who think that there is a conspiracy to hide that vaccines cause autism.

They base this off of:

1. Vaccinations became a big thing around the time autism became a diagnosis.
2. A “scientist” who wanted to make money by suing vaccination creators published a study saying that vaccines cause autism.

Doctor Andrew Wakefield. The only one to ever have made this connection. Several dozen studies carried out since have been unable to produce the same results. In a large part because the original paper (it be a pdf, sorry) contained deliberately falsified source data.

He lied, basically. Made data up on the fly to support his conclusions, and used his then-influential position as leverage. He’s since been stripped of his ability to practice medicine in the UK, and stripped of every title he held. He’s fled to the states where he continues to publish aleged medical textbooks letting the public know about the dangers of MMR, coming across as a trustworthy source if you don’t know the science.

That his research was blatantly fabricated isn’t questioned in academic circles. the original paper’s still available to look through as are the follow up investigations done by others, showing that not only was his methodology flawed, but his data was falsified. That’s good enough for the scientific mindset.

Rather it’s only in the general public and media sphere that the research has any grounding. These are people who don’t understand the science, and cannot be faulted for that. Instead they rely on figures in authority to tell them which side to believe. The problem is half the time these figures don’t understand the science themselves, or they see something to gain from perpetuating the lie.

Whatever else he is, Wakefield is a silver-tongued serpent, and is very good at writing prose that preys on a parent’s darkest fears. Combine that with enough policymakers and celebs wishing his research to be true, and the generally scientifically ignorant person is caught between a rock and a hard place, not knowing which side to believe, and with their kids’ safety compromised if they make the wrong choice.

So, should they be banned from traveling (so they cant spread diseases) and from having children (they are purposefully dooming their children to death from polio or measles)?

They’re honestly trying to make the best choice for their children, with limited and confusing information available to them, unless they have the time to take courses on medical science and methodology, and understand the medical procedures of the health systems in a particular foreign country (the UK) which is necessary if you’re going to understand why he would not have had access to the data he claimed to have gathered.

It’s too much to ask of the general parent. All they can do is go with whatever information they have to hand, and the confusion is hardly their faults, but rather the fault of those with an interest in spreading such.

Originally posted by karmakoolkid:

But, what about those of cognitive skills that significantly result in their being a very expensive drain on social reserves that could be better utilized in other ways?

Not a good idea. Many if not most of the genes involved in creating a mind that is mentally deficient, are also involved in creating a mind that is on the other end of the curve. You screen for one, you’ll also eliminate the other at this point in time. We just don’t fully understand the complex interplay between the various gene sequences for determining mental capability (intelligence, memory management, emotional intelligence et al).

Yes, we could in theory screen out the cognitively challenged individuals, but by doing so we would also screen out the geniuses if we went by our current ability to perform such screenings. Whilst we know most of the genes which are involved, we don’t know how they interplay together, and well, right now the screening is about as useful as screening out Stupid by eye color. It plain wouldn’t work.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / Hell

Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:

I thought this was illuminating because it really illustrated (for me, at least), how “hellish” certain environments I’ve been in have felt, simply from extreme lack of teamwork. When people—due to misery, selfishness, boredom, or whatever else—throw each other under the bus as a matter of principle, the whole mission seems to sink.

This is the same line of reasoning that led me to the conclusion that this planet is a hell, in essence, and if there ever was a heaven, there isn’t now. Any plane of existence the human mind has access to, will be corrupted by the very ways those minds tend to think. Our animal origins lead to all sorts of selfish, egocentrical behavior.

So, either a ‘heaven’ does not exist any more, brought low by the presence of the very minds it was meant to be a haven for, or the minds that go there are forcibly remolded into very, very different entities with their life experiences stripped away to make them more compatible with a heavenly plane and avoid the destruction of the heaven.

Either outcome is quite depressing. An alternative could be that each time a heaven is defiled enough by the presence of the ex-human minds within it, it is essentially abandoned, and only the cream of the crop as it were aremigrated to a new one, the old one cast off and ignored as it falls ever further into a hell plane.

Kinda makes you wonder if ex-human minds would even be worth the bother of dealing with, other than to keep them all in one place so they don’t bother anyone else. Heaven & hell being cattle pens, there to protect other realms from our spirits by corralling them all together.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / 7even Deadly Sins

Originally posted by karmakoolkid:
Originally posted by vikaTae:

Well yea, I don’t really know what else you might think I meant Karma. Elves? Trolls? Trogdor the burninator?.

Oh, silly me…I always found the concept of the term “Human race” to be a redundancy.

If you look, you’ll notice I did not use that term. Rather I just said the race to which we belong. Homo sapiens, in all it’s evolutionary variation.

After all, race seems to be a term applied specifically & ONLY to humans,,,,

It is really not. Species and race are interchangeable terms, however race is more likely to be understood by non subject matter experts. It’s all about trying to make your text accessible to as many people as possible.

Obviously, my definition of the word would have promoted me to state your sentence as saying:
, and give US_,
or;
,_and give humanity
,
or just the very simple;
, and yield…generate…bless us with…,

My version is accepted by biology. Homo Sapiens Sapiens does actually exist, and not just as a term invented to make the claim that we are somehow not the same as all the other animals on the planet. Each species/race has it’s own classification.

And, I was a bit confused by the comma between the words race & control.
Such a pause/separation didn’t seem to jibe quite well.

I apologise for my poor use of English. We’ve had this discussion many times. I do try to use sentence structure that those who only understand American English can understand, whilst also using sentence structure that the rest of the English-speaking world can understand. Sometimes I slip up, and cause confusion to speakers of the one or the other. Such was the case here.

I can only remind you that English is not the first tongue I learned, and that I am trying to balance two distinctly different dialects of that language on the forum, and I am aware how the slightest misplaced grammatical symbol can lead to confusion in one dialect or another. Usually in the American English camp as experience has taught me that International English speakers are usually able to wrap their minds around such mistakes whereas American English speakers commonly can not. It’s actually cost me work a time or two.

Needless to say the end of the sentence flows as: “to give those of our race (and others that may be created by us [implicit tonal statement others who know me well will see]) control over their own bodies far beyond that [which goes] far beyond that [which] evolution / deities / whatever [delete as applicable] gave us.

I hope you are able to understand the sentiment now, and again apologise for any inconvenience my poor use of English gave you, Karma.

Plus, I think most ppl who reside in the triple-digit IQ ratings (if one is inclined to give credence to such) are aware that the different races have attributes which distinguish them… for a host of reasons. I was merely wondering if such somehow applied in some form to this valiant quest for knowledge you greatly expounded upon. Specifically in the area of your speciality of limb replacement.

Hoo boy, yea and then some.

I wouldn’t call myself a racist, as I quite honestly don’t care how much melanin is in your skin. When I was a kid I got myself in trouble a fair bit for not realising the person I was talking to was non-white until I brought them home and my mother hit the roof. It’s one of those things I even now still struggle to see, and have to remind myself to check for it when I visit her. I talk to anyone, and usually don’t stop to consider their physical appearance. Black, white, aqua-maroon, able bodied, wheelchair user, normal speech or impeded speech, there’s no difference to the quality of the mind, so what does the body matter?

In Kentucky, this was a mental disability of mine: to run my mouth and try to make friends without stopping to think about which ethnic group the person I was talking to was a member of. One of too many things that set me apart as something of a freak to my peers, and caused my family no end of exasperation. Over on this side of the pond, it’s no-longer a mental disability as precious few outside the old guard give a damn what color your skin is.

That said: there are real, tangible differences between evolutionary groups, that are an absolute nightmare to deal with. I may have to use more detail than I normally would to explain this. I apologise for the depth but please, try to keep up. I can dumb it down to some degree if anyone truly cannot.

Neural codes are the core of what I do. If you were to sum my specialist area up in a single sentence, it would be the reverse-engineering and appropriation of the neural codes of the body for purposes other than which they were intended. That sums up everything. All my VR work, all my prosthetics work, everything I have ever done in sensation. They are vastly important things, at the very core of how your brain works and how your body parts communicate with one another.

Neural codes are a lot like packets on the internet. One specific signal, analogue, that is transmitted from the brain to the sensory device or body part contains the code for one specific action. Signals going back the other way are the same: one code, one action.

Take a simple pacinian corpuscle, part of the touch sense. It’s like a tiny little onion at one point under the skin. When it deforms the layers touch and a circuit is made. At that point it transmits a neural code back to the brain. Deform the top of it and one neural code goes out. Deform the middle, and another, different neural code goes out. Deform the bottom and a third different code goes out. Twist any of those areas instead of poking them, and three more, again different codes go out. Each corpuscle can produce a few hundred different codes, and every corpuscle on the same individual uses the same ones.

Every cell type that is connected to a nerve has its own set of neural codes. The heart sends neural codes to the brain, and the brain sends them back. Literally billions of neural codes pass between different sectors of the brain. Your body is alight with neural codes.

To get anything to interface with the body to the point where your nervous system is controlling it, those codes have to be reverse engineered. We have to know what they actually mean. What they are telling the body part to do. We have to understand them so we know as well, what codes to send back whilst or after our connected part has performed an action.

This is where it gets nasty.

You have the same neural codes as members of your immediate family. So will someone who grew up in the same town. They’ve interbred with your family at some point not too many generations ago. As the connection becomes more remote, the codes tend to drift a little out of alignment, and it is ‘fun’ to figure out what the offset is, and which codes are affected. The same kind of ‘fun’ you get when repeatedly slamming your head against a cinder block wall or having your fingernails pulled.

Then let’s add in the ethnicities whose ancestors did not interbreed, and they have developed sizable very different physical characteristics from one another. I think you can see where this is going.

The neural differences between someone whose ancestors were European and interbred with the Neanderthals thusly, are very different from someone whose ancestors were Asian, and did not interbreed with the Neanderthal race. The same base signalling systems are used, as nature tends to repeat ideas that work, but often the actual codes are… well, take someone from a Gaelic descent from Brest say, and then take someone from Tokyo, a city in Japan. Both have families that have lived for thousands of years in their respective areas.

Their neural systems are doing the exact same thing, but compared to one another, they’re speaking foreign languages. Some are always the same (within a tolerance) but others… sheesh. No similarities at all, no clue how they deviated from one another, or what their base was.

Then, these two individuals marry, and have kids. Oh joy. The kids have taken half the codes from one parent, and half the codes from the other. La de dah, happy days. Hello wall; I’m going to head butt you for a bit…

There are ways round it; we use pre-loaded commands a lot. They’re nowhere near as good as a direct neural code connection, but it’s a case of ‘any port in a storm’ sometimes. They use the same electrodes into the muscles, but rather than try to interface with the neural codes, they don’t even bother. Instead they send their own codes that are like nothing the brain’s ever seen before, and let the brain try to work out what they are and how to talk back.

That way the brain adapts to use the arm, rather than the arm adapting to seamlessly fit with the brain. It’s much, much slower, with the brain typically taking 3 to 6 months to fully interface, rather than being ready to go as soon as the connection is made, and if you want your arm to learn new movements you have to have them specifically programmed into the arm, then a new code generated for the brain to figure out. It is slow and clunky, but sometimes there is no other choice.

Typically we use a mixture of the two: All the arms come with a basic set of pre-loaded commands, then we tie as much into the neural codes of that patient as is physically possible. That way they can use the prosthetic immediately, as subconsciously as they used their old arm, with whatever commands we’ve been able to match. Learning the set commands comes later as their brain adjusts, but it will be years before they are as natural to the person as their old arm codes are.

Ethnic groupings and evolution are directly responsible for that problem, so in that respect I am racist yes. I have to be. If I’m going to get the best connection for each patient, I have to take their ethnic history into consideration.

I’m still working on reverse engineering more codes, and the reason for their variation. If I can find a pattern to where and why they vary, it will make things much easier. Hell, I don’t even care who finds such a pattern; it’s that important that we find it. The secret has to be somewhere in the motor control sections. A communications directory in essence. We are still only looking in the most general terms however, so it’ll likely be decades before that’s located. Until then, it is absolutely essential the evolutionary history of that patient is taken into consideration directly. The interface literally won’t work if we don’t do so.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / 7even Deadly Sins

Well yea, I don’t really know what else you might think I meant Karma. Elves? Trolls? Trogdor the burninator? I have no objection to helping dogs, horses, sheep, and whatever, but my primary focus is going to be our collective race, ideally regardless of financial means, gain as much control over their physical bodies as possible.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / 7even Deadly Sins

Originally posted by thepunisher52:

So your revenge will comprise years of suffering eh?

It means I don’t forgive, or forget. Anything from using their criminal record against them directly, to using their driving skills and my tech knowledge against them directly. (That one in particular was kinda bending the law a wee bit, but I did not cause the crash. His fault for not checking all the controls worked properly before trying to do double the speed limit in a built up area.)

\What do you mean that you do not have a 100% organic body?

As in there are parts of my body that are inorganic in nature, fairly predictably :). I’ve got a lot of metal and resin inside one of my feet. Replaces a few bits of skeletal structure that went AWOL on me. Been a bit of a pain particularly as I’ve gotten older, and it has tried to resite itself a few times now.

For the moment there’s not really a better option, but I stress for the moment.

If I have an all-encompassing ‘sin’, it’s that I refuse to accept the world as it is now, and refuse to leave control of our capabilities to random chance or divinity or whatever you wish to call it. I use knowledge as a scalpel to leverage change. It’s why I value knowledge so highly. Not useless facts to collect or hoard, but as a set of tools to reshape the world according to the will of our best minds. To push back the frontiers of knowledge, and give those of our race, control over their own bodies far beyond that evolution / deities/ whatever gave us. It’s not conceit, but something else. An all-encompassing belief that nothing is beyond our capability to understand, to manipulate, and exert a high degree of control over, if only we have the tools and knowhow to do it.

To someone who believes their life is shaped by a deity, or someone who preaches obedience to such, this would be a capital sin, a deadly sin. To me, it’s the white-hot blazing point at the core of my being, and a central drive of who I am, and what I am.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / 7even Deadly Sins

Originally posted by thepunisher52:
So you are the perfect embodiment of a woman scorned.

I have severe anger tendencies, yes. it’s not on the hairpin trigger it was during my teen years, but it is still there. I suppose if we’re talking non-traditional sins loyalty is a big one for me, that ties directly into wrath. Within reason if you hurt me, that’s fine. If you hurt those I love, you’re in for a world of hurt. Again, I’m not big on physical punishment; I’m physically weak and that’s not likely to change any time soon. But my mind is keen, and there are all sorts of ways to extract revenge if you know where to look.

But as I say to get me really angry, you have to work at it. There are a few things such as physical sexual assault of a friend, that will get you on the shit-list instantly, where you will stay for the rest of your miserable life. Physical sexual assault of me, is the one thing still likely to end that life there and then, probably along with my own. That’s an absolute no-no. Not again. Never again, and my wrath comes out full force if that even looks remotely likely.

Usually when someone gets on the shit-list it’s through abuse of those I care about, rather than abuse of me. One of the advantages of not having a 100% organic body, is you’re used to pain, and your threshold gets quite high. So I can deal with that. What I cannot deal with is when you’re hurting those I love. Stealing from them, exploiting them, physical trauma against them or against their kids. Depending on how long you’ve been doing it, or what you’ve been doing, you are setting yourself up for a very, very miserable life.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / 7even Deadly Sins

I might as well weigh in here. Too bad insomnia’s not a deadly sin. heh.

  • Wrath: I’m a wrathful being, no doubt about that. It usually takes a good while or a concerted effort on the other party’s part to get on to my ‘smite thee’ list, but once you are on … you never come off. I don’t trust easily, and as a direct counterpart, I forgive very rarely.

    Wrath for me, almost never takes the form of a direct confrontation. If it does, it be verbal rather than physical. But that is usually part of a larger effort to seek revenge, using every trick and technique I know, as well as my awareness of systems and how they interconnect. Doesn’t have to be me you hurt either. Hurting my friends is actually rather worse than hurting me, and if you assault them, or assault their kids, well hell hath no fury… and it tends to come wrapped in my form.

  • Greed: This one’s not really me. I’m always after more resources true, but I immediately put those resources to work; knowledge is the only thing I hoard. Money goes to work to further my long term goals, and I have no interest in items for items’ sake, nor money for money’s sake. A car serves to get me from A to B, and so long as I can absolutely depend on it to do that, that’s all I ask. A home is suited to task.

  • Sloth: This is pretty much the opposite of my life. I get exasperated groans and have had my access to a dumb terminal physically removed from time to time. Yesterday my soldering iron vanished (again) and I’ve been told by he I somehow still love, that I’m working myself too hard. Again.

  • Pride: Nope. I tend to take a backseat to the ‘glory’ of a new discovery or development, and wait for it all to go horribly wrong. Sooner or later some unplanned scenario will present itself, and break whatever we used to smash back the barriers of human knowledge, and when it does, guess who’s gonna have to get her hands dirty?

    I hold pride in my work, rather than pride in who I am. I don’t particularly like myself very much, but it’ll do for now.

  • Lust: In the throes of passion, I definitely know lust very well. Beyond that, I’m happy with who I have, and what I have in that department. Although I do tend to computerise and augment sensation in that area a bit. I ‘dabble’, as I do with sensation right across the board. None of it is too extreme, and lust or even sex, is not a driving force in my life.

  • Envy: Sort of. I’m envious of a lot of the societies pictured in many hard-core sci-fis. They have their own problems as bad as ours, but they’ve pushed the frontiers of knowledge back so much, and in areas I’m so interested in exploring. I’m known to feel more than a twinge of envy for their abilities.

    A little less often, I look at some of the other teams in RL, pushing back the boundaries of what is possible in human-machine integration, and am envious when they push ahead. The task then is to figure out how they did it, and envy that I’m not on the right team is sometimes present in the back of my mind. Conversely when we push ahead (and we do, often) it’s not something I really give much thought to; just one less thing to think about.

  • Gluttony: I’m not as bad as I was, mostly because others remind me, but I have been known to forget to eat for fair-sized periods. In the olden days, this might literally be a case of a day or more. Not because I couldn’t afford it, but simply because I forgot to do it. More important things on my mind. So gluttony too, isn’t really me.
 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / Just leave me alone

Originally posted by finkidz5_:

Finkidz, I actually missed your reply before. Hence why I replied to Player 03 rather than yourself. I would have addressed both had I seen it, as there are some things I wish to say in response to parts of yours.

You are correct, but I would argue that pornographic content is currently more accessible than ever before.

This is the core function of the internet. Making things more accessible than ever before. Connecting everything and everyone together. It makes everything much more accessible and a few things possible that plain were not even remotely so without it.

However, porn itself was still accessible in the days before the net. Think ’Gentleman’s Book Shop’. They seemed innocent and innoculous on the outside, but historically they were places that were filled to the rafters with porn. Probably with a whole lot more anonymity than the net has. On the net you can track what most people are doing, and traceroute back to source if you are so inclined. With a ’gentleman’s book shop’ I doubt they really cared who you were so long as you looked like you had money.

In the days immediately before the net, when phonelines were around and microcomputers but not the nety itself, the buletin board services – where you phoned the number directly, then connected the accoustic coupler to the phone – often offered porn for direct transfer. So long as there is a connection, services will be offered through that connection. All the net does is make that connection ubiquitous.


You’re seriously going to tell me that an emoticon has the same depth of emotion as a facial expression? The only purpose I see them to serve is to show that I’m teasing, being sarcastic, etc. because it’s impossible to properly convey emotion via text. My sending you this :) doesn’t really mean much when compared to an actual smile.

I never said it had the same emotional depth. Your claim was that it was impossible to convey emotion on the net. I offered three counter-examples of emotional means on the net.

Emoticons are by far the weakest, with sequence files being by far the strongest of the three. Even they are a compromise, animating your avatar’s facial expressions and/or body posture in response to your desired emotional projection. They’re a compromise because they’re a way to convey such face & body-based emotion, when motion capture is not possible.

Unfortunately most people do not have a MoCap (motion capture) rig at home. They’re big, unwieldy, and kinda expensive for the full kit, depending on which method you’re using. Even assuming the tech improves (and it is, I’m currently behind the curve on what MoCap can do), you are always going to have situations where full mocap is impossible for a given user or users, and so sequence files and similar ilk will fill in the emotional gaps.

Trying to convey emotioanl full body stances when your legs don’t work, or using complex hand gestures when you don’t have full control of your arms are classic examples, there are many more. Ultimately the net makes such things vastly easier, and with the increased acess to brainwave reading input devices, I could even comfortably make the claim that emotions are gaining ground as a means of using the net itself – playing a big part in how you are sending instructions into the system.

That’s fair. But would you say that the majority of the interactions on the internet take place through video conference?

No. There are severe bandwidth problems with full video streaming, especially when multiple users at multiple different locations are involved in the same conference.

I suspect avatar-based conferencing will be uptaken faster than mainstream videoconferencing for big events (it’s already being used, and has been for a few years) because it offers a way to sidestep the bandwidth limitations as the majority of the visual component to the signal only has to be downloaded once, then animated. Frees up bandwidth for many more users and a much, much higher degree of interactivity.

There have been quite a few experiments over the years for example, on creating a collaborative online environment for teaching, using the same principles. High degree of interactivity for physically very disparate students, relatively low bandwidth load, whilst extremely high level of engagement. Nobody’s quite there yet, but every experiment teaches us something new, and pulls things closer to the day it will be a viable method to group conference in an interactive way that rivals real-world collaboration – and possibly exceeds it.

Right now, we’re kinda in a bewixt-and-between era. The fundamentals have been in place for over 20 years, but it’s figuring out the nitty gritty to make it all work together, and work properly, that we don’t have a handle on yet. Sooo many elements need to be just right, and sooo many of them we don’t yet fully understand.

Fortunately, the net is there to help us, offering easy access to research teams across the globe, and offering an efficient means for everyone to pool their work and accelerate the pace of discovery. Much of what is being done to make the net more interactive, and virtual embodiment a very real thing, is the kind of work that would not have been even conceived of, without the net there to connect everyone’s senses directly together.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / Should medical crystal meth be legalized?

Heh. Doesn’t have to get in your lungs if you’re going down that route. All drowning is at its core is asphyxiation. You can drown in two inches of water if you are laying down and unconscious. Just enough to cover the mouth and nose and prevent new air coming in and the old air going out. It doesn’t actually have to go down the throat at all.

This is the big danger with unattended babies in bathtubs as an example.

So, as you so quaintly put it, um:

Originally posted by RollerCROWster:

lrn2anatomy

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / 600

No measurable violence has erupted over the Scotland-England separation in living memory; that tactic was abandoned as all it did was entrench both sides. Instead talking has been used to ease the problem, and has led to a referrendum that is coming up where the Scottish people get to decide for themselves and will be honored.

What did all the violence in Northern Ireland get them? Absolutely nothing. Same entrenchment issue. It came down to talks before something could be hammered out. They’re still a part of the UK. If they do leave it will be through negotiation and politics, not through thuggery.

Yet, thuggery is what your people love. Based on your own attitudes displayed here on this forum, and of your people in general easily accessed throughout the web, you don’t talk things out if you can shoot them, stab them, beat them to death or bleed them out instead. Seems the latter is basically fun for you, on a cultural level.

You’re not mature enough as a society to handle things the adult way; through talking out your problems rather than trying to bludgeon one another with the nearest blunt objects. That’s the main difference between our societies.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / 600

Originally posted by thepunisher52:

You want Evidence, Here you go
http://www.examiner.com/article/premier-hrcp-slams-killing-of-13-punjabi-laborers-by-london-based-bla

Which concerns violent deaths carried out in Pakistan. You didn't actually read the article I gather:

"One of the best human rights organizations in the Asian continent has condemned the Taliban-style killing of 13 extremely poor Punjabi laborers, who were returning from Balochistan to Punjab -- Pakistan's most populous province -- to celebrate Muslim Christmas or Eid Tuesday."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Quaid-e-Azam_Residency_attack

"Assailants attacked the heritage site with rockets and hand grenades immediately after midnight of June 15, destroying the residency, which housed the founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, in his last two months and ten days. Three rockets were fired from unknown location,[4] killing a policeman identified as Muhammad Tahir Jan. Four to five terrorists on two motorcycles attacked the residency with bombs.[1]"

If the rest of your links are going to be like this, I'd recommend giving up now. You're just proving my argument, and Beauval's and dd's, for us.

http://defence.pk/threads/bla-kills-14-punjabi-workers-after-id-check.269404/

"QUETTA: The bodies of thirteen coach passengers out of fifteen, who had been abducted last night and slain near Mach of District Bolan, were recovered from nearby mountains Tuesday morning, Geo News reported."

"All those passengers were shot to death by the culprits, he said. He further told that all the murdered persons belonged to Sadiqabad, Rajanpur, Muzaffargarh, Faisalabad, Rahim Yar Khan and Bahawalpur areas of Punjab."

This is a different take on the same story as the first link, adding more wood to the fire FOR the argument that you guys have taken the baton of senseless violence the developed world dropped centuries back; and are holding it high, one of the world leaders in mindless brutal thuggery. Congrats?

http://tribune.com.pk/story/563531/one-official-killed-in-attack-on-quaid-e-azam-residency-in-balochistan/

"Interior Minister Chaudhry Nisar revealed that the residency had been attacked by five militants, who had removed the Pakistan flag and raised the BLA flag in its place."

Same story as the second link. Sooo, of your four links they actually only cover the same two events. More evidence to fuel my suspicion you just grabbed random web links for violence without bothering to actually read them. How ironic that both are examples of brutal violence within Pakistan, eh?

Seriously, I'd suggest you stop posting links to 'disprove' our arguments about your country being a violent, savage place that excells in thuggery and old-testament style cultural values Punisher. Every link you posted is just reinforcing these arguments and weakening you own.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / Should medical crystal meth be legalized?

Originally posted by Helltank:

I have no issue with vika saying “and likely know someone who has seen it”, I do have an issue with her asserting that he has seen it. Yes, Meth is available in Singapore legally, but I have never gotten a disease or injury that requires the use of Adderall or any other medicine with meth in it.

But statistically, it is quite likely you have seen someone who whether it is known to you or not, is taking it to help with a real condition they have. That was the whole point.

Especially if you live where YouCantButICan does. I have to admit I did not check his profile to verify location, and just went with the sorts of things he was saying in his arguments, language choices, ancedotes etc to pin down a location, but the end result is the same. US.

In the US certainly, Adderall and Ritelin are very frequently prescribed. Which reinforces the actual point I was making, that he is very likely to at least know someone who is taking meth on prescription, even if he did not realise what he was seeing.


Originally posted by RollerCROWster:

hey guys i know someone who died because they were addicted to water and died from water poisoning

Or most likely died from drinking in too much water all at once, so they were unable to breathe for too long a time, which is known as drowning.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / 600

What made me smile is how he compares himself to an American psychopath as part of his defense. It’s certainly a defense against your own defense lawyer being willing to call you to the witness stand, but I’m not sure how helpful it is to his case beyond that.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / Should medical crystal meth be legalized?

Originally posted by Helltank:
Actually, you have seen it before

I have no personal interest in this thread but would like to express my displeasure at someone making an assertion about someone else’s personal life. For all we know, YoucantbutICan lives in a society where drugs are almost extinct(like in Singapore, where I actually live).

Singapore isn’t a society where drugs are almost extinct. Meth is on the restricted access to medications list but it is what Singapore terms a POM. A Prescription Only Medicine, as opposed to general public access. Doctors and qualified medical personnel can prescribe it for the relevant conditions in Singapore, the same as they can in most developed countries. Whilst I can confirm Adderall is banned for public use in singapore, it is still available for prescription only (POM) in dosages of less than 250 microgrammes, no more than three months at a time as permitted by the Therapeutic Products Branch, Pre-Marketing Division, Health Products Regulation GroupHSA MedProd Enquiry (HSA) for specific cases with actual medical evidence to back them up (ie a genuine condition). They will consider every single substance otherwise banned in the country as a POM for that patient if the evidence to back up the diagnosis exists.

So my above statement still applies even in Singapore. When the drug is necessary to control a chronic condition, and there is no alternative available (all the alternatives also contain meth as the primary ingredient) it will be prescribed by the doctor, rather than letting the disease progress unhindered.

Originally posted by Helltank:

Not to mention he may not even have ADHD.

As I originally said, in the second half of that sentence you half-quoted, he likely knows someone who is taking it. ADHD diagnosis is increasingly common, particularly in the US where YouCantButICan most likely does live due to the way he is wording his arguments, and the kinds of things he brings into them. He either lives there, or spent long enough living there to absorb the culture and more fringe religious cultural elements you don’t find in many other English-speaking places.

So the chances are he knows or knew someone who had been diagnosed as having ADHD. That means they’re taking minute quantities of meth under doctor’s orders, whether they actually have ADHD or it’s a misdiagnosis (or lazy doctor).

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / Should medical crystal meth be legalized?

Originally posted by YoucantbutICan:
And yeah, I don’t know that much about Meth, I’ve never seen it before or done it before, and I’m sure you haven’t either.

Actually, you have seen it before, and likely know someone who is taking it.

Adderall. The main drug used in ADHD treatment. It’s basically what this drug is – meth light. The medical version of crystal meth basically.

I’m not a happy bunny with how Adderall is currently used; I believe it is overprescribed since a whole host of issues including a chronically bored, highly intellignt kid that the system cannot cope with are often misdiagnosed as ADHD and prescribed this treatment drug. It is highly effective in treating narcolepsy and genuine ADHD, because of how it interfaces with the brain and controls the uptake of the primary neurotransmitter involved in both conditions, but that control doesn’t come without a cost. If you don’t have a condition that neccessitates controlling your dopamine levels, you will gain all the negative consequences, balanced with no positive ones.

Meth merely kills you, however you’re considering it’s benefits towards a cancer patient? or, lupus patient? Is it just the patient getting high that distracts him/her from the pain they’re in?

As I actually explicitly stated, lupus is an autoimmune dysfunction. Basically the immune system is overpowered, and mistakes the body itself as something to be attacked and destroyed. It goes after the person’s own bodily tissues in an aggressive way, usually causing immense debilitation and chronic pain to the sufferer.

One of the things meth is extremely good at is weakening the immune system. Combining the drug form of meth (Adderall) with an autoimmune-system-in-overdrive problem such as lupus, results in a net benefit as the auto-immune system is weakened and thus the attacks on the person’s own body drop off sharply.

The problem comes in that the drug does this by attacking the absorption of dopamine by your body’s cells, and as dopamine is a major player in the control of the immune system, this works extremely well. However dopamine is also a major player in a lot of other systems, including most of your organs. There are better ways to target the immune system and lower its aggressiveness, than by targetting dopamine.

Think of dopamine like the electrons in the control bus on a computer. It’s everywhere in the system, but its function differs radically depending on which part of the system it is in – the local circuitry tells it what to do, whilst it itself is just an enabler, a lot like power in the control bus. How much of it there is determines how strongly the system will work, but it does not determine how the system will work.

You’re referring to dopamine in one of many, many very different roles in the brain – that of regulating the pleasure response. That is actually only occuring in a very tiny area of the brain, and dopamine has many other important regulatory functions in different parts of the brain as well as different parts of the body.

It’s not an ideal neurotransmitter to target because of this, but sometimes targetting it is the only treatment we have that works for a given condition, and meth is a substance that binds to the same receptors dopamine does. It works to counteract dopamine directly, and is one of the only drugs that does this.

It definitely has very valid uses in medical care.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / Quick political question

Originally posted by issendorf:

Kasic and jhco are even from the same state!

Makes you feel sorry for both of them doesn’t it?

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / Quick political question

Originally posted by Winnabago:

It is commonly asserted by pro-choicers that such abortions ought to be legal, and quite sensibly, if rights are to only be conferred at birth. The reason those abortions are illegal is because lots of people disagree with that notion, right?

Not quite. Technically if complications arise it is ‘aborted’ in as much as it is removed early from the womb, and placed in an incubator. It is no-longer inside the woman, no-longer attached to her body, so in that sense it has been aborted. A preterm birth, or artificially induced preterm birth or a preterm cesarean all fall into that category.

However, it is a functional organism at that point, and has a chance of survival independent of her. so, it is given that chance, and if the mother wishes nothing more to do with it, that is her right.

Before approx 35-37 weeks (37 is usually the standard, but in individuals it varies) it’s not preterm, it’s premature. Big difference there. We take it out of the mother, it will not survive. Not developed enough, so any removal aborts the fetus. In a chemical abortion (the type an early abortion usually is), the fetus is still alive, a tiny ball of cells, that is ejected from the womb, but not killed in the process.

Instead, it is left to survive in the wild of the kidney dish/emesis basin as best it can. Needless to say it doesn’t, and if you actually wished to kill it early you’d need a microscope to find it.

So, what I’m getting at is there is really no difference between early and late. In both the fetus is removed from the mother, but not killed. Instead it is left to survive on its own; only given additional medical help if the chances of survival are greater than 0%. Much before 37 weeks, that chance whilst greater than 0%, is still less than even odds. So the amount of help given is proportional to a consultant’s estimation of the chances of survival. After that, whilst an abortion treatment is used, the resultant baby has a high chance of survival, and is known as a preterm birth rather than an abortion for that reason.


EDIT: Edited after checking the terminology I was using would be familiar to both Americans and everybody else. I’ve altered some terms to avoid confusion before I get moaned at this time :)

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / Quick political question

Winn, Late-term abortions are in general, illegal, and uncontestably so. Once the developing organism has a brain that can register and respond to changes in its environment, and is capable of feeling pain, it is generally too late to abort. About the only exception is an immediate risk of death to the mother, and even then the fetus is removed to be placed on life support where possible.

Before the neural tube forms, or after the tube forms but before the cortex starts to develop from it, it is a very different story. There’s not even the remotest chance of a mind there, and it is about as responsive to changes in the environment as an amputated arm is.

At that point, we go with the wishes of the only mind present in that body, at least if you support the right to choose. After that point we effectively have two minds in that body and both must be taken into consideration.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / 600

Originally posted by Winnabago:

Are you saying that punisher’s people believe death and violence to be goods in and of themselves?

Considering how Punisher constantly posts the most violent solution to any issue, asks people how they would like to die, celebrates the deaths of others on this forum (he’s done that several times) and referred to a problem he had locally with some young boys, whose fathers told him to go and drown their sons in the river if they bothered him again, then yes I would say his people believe violent death to be an end in itself, and violence in general to be the ends that justifies the means.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / Quick political question

Originally posted by tenco1:

Generally, when you have an opinion, especially a political opinion, you want people to agree with you (I don’t see you saying “dammit, stop agree with with me, ya commie!” whenever someone here shares your opinion on something). Even more-so in this forum, since it’s purpose is mainly to have people create persuasive arguments for why they’re right.

I don’t believe I’ve seen anyone else on this forum ever fully agree with Jhco unless they’re blatantly trolling like Crow. Some degree of agreement yes, but he tends to take otherwise seemingly rational perspectives, and run with them till they’re on the loony fringe, then stake a claim that this is the most moderate position he is prepared to accept.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / 600

Punisher, you’ll note that none of those wars are currently ongoing. Their time has come and gone.

For your people however, you still glorify death and violence. The baton has passed to you.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / 600

Meh, senseless violence is more your people’s speciality Punisher. We’ll leave it to you.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / Quick political question

Originally posted by jhco50:

Kasic, you are so wrong on so many accounts. People do think for themselves and that is what causes all of the controversy. People don’t agree with your views (as an example) and what do you do? You call them extremists.

Lets take the pro-choice question. Conservatives are against pro-chose for many reasons,

‘Conservatives’ aren’t a group mind. Each individual conservative individual has their own thoughts, and I have no doubt some are actually pro choice!

but I can give you an example, the UK using the carcases for heating the hospitals instead of respecting the fact they are actually human beings and deserve at least the dignity of a burial.

Standard policy is to incinerate all medical waste. A fetus (which is usually smaller than a matchstick at the time it is aborted) counts as such. Your toenail clippings count as such, and the UK does not give them tiny burials either.

It is this disrespect for human life that galls so many. Liberals talk about a woman’s right and dismiss the fact that a human being was created and has it’s rights taken away.

It doesn’t have any rights. Never did. Rights are confirred upon birth, and slowly increased over the years.

good thing too, because it doesn’t have a brain capable of understanding such concepts – hell when it’s aborted, it usually doesn’t even have a neural tube, let alone a single neuron that will ultimately be dedicated to a mind.

You evidently come from a socialist country and expect all others to accept what you have been taught as gospel. It doesn’t work that way in every country.

Kasic comes from the United States of America I believe. Pretty sure what works in the USA will also work in the USA.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / Hezbollah: Resistance movement or terrorists?

We may have to agree to disagree, since I’m willing to use reasoning to determine which news sources to trust for which events and why, whereas you are absolutely unwilling to do so. We’re not going to make much headway.

 
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Topic: Serious Discussion / Should medical crystal meth be legalized?

Originally posted by YoucantbutICan:

Absolutely not. Crystal meth isn’t just a drug. It’s fucking evil, like, seriously. Fucking evil. It doesn’t benefit you with weight loss, it destroys you with weight loss. Losing weight with Crystal Meth is suicide. You could literally die from it.

You could literally die from morphine, as it suppresses your respiration. Does this mean morphine for medical purposes should be made illegal?

You could literally die from botox, as it kills neurons on contact, and if it gets into the bloodstream it will be carried all over the body and kill the autonomous system neurons. Does this mean botox injections for chronic pain relief should be made illegal?

You could literally die from receiving a transfusion of the wrong blood type. Does this mean that blood transfusions should be made illegal?

You could literally die from open heart surgery. Does this mean open heart surgery should be made illegal?

Get the point yet?

Since when did meth cure cancer and AIDS. Are you high? ..Are you?

In theory it would be a good way of treating lupus and other auto-immune disorders, since in these cases, suppressing the immune system is exactly what is required to give the patient back quality of life. However, there are better ways to achieve the same ends.

Narcolepsy is probably the only treatment I’d recommend it for, since the compound is a dopamine inhibitor. Of course, if you get the dosage too high, it’ll lead to kidney problems, and Parkingtons disease-like symptoms, for precisely the same reason.

If you’re going to use these compounds, wield them like a scalpel, not a sledgehammer. It’s for precisely this reason that I’m ok with their use in medical care, and only in medical care.