Recent posts by saybox on Kongregate

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Topic: Kongregate / Kongregate Avatar Wall 2015

me too!

but please put mrgravy as far away from me as possible :D

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Topic: Kongregate / Why so much Idle?

Originally posted by bobby71983:

I don’t think that paradox applies well to something that has no notable downside. If something is free, you are much less likely to be anxious because if you don’t like the first thing, you just get the next thing, and the next, and the next, until you like it. It was free, so you don’t really care.

That isn’t what happens, though. Once you’re established on Kong, sure. But Kong is designing the site around funneling casual players into playing a good game as quickly as possible, from where they prompt for account setup. If you’re a longterm user of the site already, then you know where to find the lists of new games and good new games already.

Originally posted by bobby71983:

How can you possibly use this site as proof for anything? Nothing new has been tried in the 4 years I have been here. Minor layout changes and a reshuffling of the buttons, but what’s behind the buttons is still the same. You have nothing to compare anything to.

things pete said that are also relevant

The new games queue has never been used much. It’s been through the same design changes as other lists on the site, and still didn’t see an increase in use. meanwhile ,the hot new games queue came along and did see a massive uptake. At the same time, when I first joined Kong, the new games queue wasn’t full of the junk it is now – there were plenty of games that weren’t great, but the endless clones and reskins didn’t exist. Additionally, the menu link to it was more prominent in the old design, and the weekly (uncurated) leaderboard used to be featured on the frontpage of Kong. Since then, the new games queue has gradually seen less and less use no matter what was changed. In 2012ish the rating system was quietly altered so that games needed fewer ratings for the number to be displayed. Still didn’t help. New queues were added for people to specifically find games without any ratings. Still no use.

Then there was K+ and the beta queue – ostensibly for legit devs to playtest a game before release. In reality it’s pretty much exclusively used to allow hardcore MMO players to get a headstart in games. Devs can’t upload to this queue unless Kong approves them, so it can’t be used like you’d expect; you can’t use it to actually help a dev improve their game before they publicly release it. I have no idea if this queue still exists, I can’t find it now, but my impression was that there weren’t many devs interested in using it for genuine betas, because the audience was too big for testing a game before release unless Kong was sponsoring the game. Otherwise, no other site would go near it for sponsorship because so many people had already played it.

The fact is that there are more low quality games on Kong than people interested in playing or rating them. Most people are here for higher quality games. Kong’s business is based around getting people to play the latest MMO that they might spend their money on, and while I’m not personally a fan of MMOs then

Having said all that, I think the way you guys are looking at it is too black and white – both of you sound like you see it as a choice between “show the new games queue” or “don’t show the new games queue”. Problem is, neither of those options work. Everyone needs to accept that most new games on the site are garbage, and expecting casual Kong members to be happy looking through them is to ignore the fact that even most mid/hardccore Kong users have never wanted to do this. Any solution that you suggest which involves “show all these games to everyone” isn’t going to work and it’s extremely unlikely that Kong will listen to it.

I suggest that there may be better options. One possible solution would be to allow devs to pay $5 to promote their game on the frontpage, up until it reaches 150 ratings. The number of pageviews for that would probably be less than the game made back in ad revenue, so it would be no use to people uploading junk. Major devs wouldn’t need it because they can get their 150 ratings from existing fans, and genuine devs who did pay would find that a game with a good rating on Kong made far more back than their $5 purchase. The devs who were genuine but didn’t manage the 3.5 rating would still benefit from the extra views and comments the game would likely receive, so it wouldn’t be a total waste for them, and for the people who decided to pay to intentionally promote junk, the ad would likely be gone in 15 minutes anyway, Kong gets a lot of traffic.

Alternatively, I’ve suggested in the past that games with few ratings would benefit if people were incentivised more to check them out and play / rate them. Add extra points for it, or badges for rating them, or whatever – yeah you’d get some people who just used a script but i don’t think the numbers would be big enough to have an impact on the overall ratings the games were ending up with since they’d also be getting more legit rates.

Where idle games specifically are concerned (sorry, I gave up on quoting), the problem is more that the trending genre will always find it easier to get upvotes under the current system, because people are playing what’s promoted and then finding new games in the same genre with the tag system. Once they get upvoted, the cycle starts over. This still doesn’t affect how good any other game on the site is (perceived to be) but it can maker it harder tofind, which my suggestions above would resolve.

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Topic: Kongregate / Why so much Idle?

Originally posted by bobby71983:

Hey saybox, then those people would just click the game ranked 1 on the list. So your comment about “research” is worthless, because it is an objectively better system than what is currently in place.

You also throw the word “research” around quite a lot to justify things you claims. If research is biased, it’s worthless, so you can’t just look at any random research someone did and claim it as factual. At some point, you have to trust your own common sense instead of letting other people tell you what makes sense.

People want as much information as possible without having to exert much effort for that information. Current system requires too many clicks navigating a website that is not very user friendly.

People will say they want information, but it tends not to be true. Look up analysis paralysis if you like. The tl;dr is that the more info and choices you give people, the harder they find it to make a choice.

There is also a theory called the Paradox of Choice which suggests that too much choice and personal freedom leads to anxiety and frustration, though studies on it had mixed results.

Try it yourself if you like. Got a little brother? Offer him a cookie. He’ll probably take it immediately. Offer him a choice of ten different cookies and say he can only have one. He’ll take much longer to decide which one he wants.

The point is that if you want people to do something, you keep the options simple. If you present them with a list of 50 things they won’t just click #1, they’ll get stuck on the page trying to decide which to click. Kong benefits more from giving them just a few options so that they move past that screen as soon as possible, since the aim is to get people playing games right away.

Power users can find the more advanced options later. In this case, the hot new and new new queues are comparatively harder to find depending on how likely it is for the typical user to want to view them.

And there’s a simpler point you’re missing. Your idea of “objectively better” is clearly not, because its been tested on the site since 2008 and found lacking. The new new games queue didn’t get used. And the amount of use it did get dropped as the number of games being uploaded increased. Making it more visible doesn’t solve the problem that 90% of the queue is spam, reskins, or junk. There is no reason for the typical Kong user to ever view it. Even before the queue was hidden, most games didn’t get enough views or ratings to mean anything.

If anything, the system is objectively good because most of Kong’s audience is being funnelled quickly into playing games that people rated highly, which is probably what Kong wants to happen.

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Topic: Kongregate / Why so much Idle?

Originally posted by Eketek:

I speak both as a long-time player of games on this site and as a developer who recently had a major project get thrashed in terms of ratings and plays by random “idle” and “clicker” games. It was very baffling when it occured

I wanted to bring up some points about your game before anything else, which may help with what you make next. I’m assuming the game you’re talking about was Orthot II.

- The blue screen with the text on at the start, it’s not clear what it is (it appears after the loading screen so it doesn’t seem to be for that). It’s likely to put players off because it makes it look like that game is some complex technical thing.
- You use the default Unity text boxes for the next screen, as well as hitting player’s with a text dump.
- starting off by claiming your game is the next big thing is not a good idea because most platyers will read it and immediately start looking to prove that that’s not the case, consciously or not.
- You completely wrote off laptop users on the instructions screen.
- there is no obvious way to close the instructions page
- you can only move one tile at a time
- there’s move text dumps as you progress
- there’s nothing in the first area of the game to actually do
- even after walking around a bit and getting to some white area, it was still unclear what I was trying to do. This was the point i stopped playing.

none of these are things that have any connection to other games on the site, they’re things within your game that needed improving.

This brings me to the main point I need to make.

You aren’t directly competing against the other games on Kong

Your game lives or dies on it’s own merits. You may be limiting your audience if you make a game in a niche genre, but that limitation is there regardless of whether the other games exist or not.

Right now idle games are popular, but before that it was tower defense games, and before that it was physics games. Personally I can’t stand physics games, but it was popular so I just had to ignore them. The popular genres jumps up in rating and visibility because demands outweighs supply. People are more likely to +rate a game if you offer them one that matches what they’re looking for, and more likely to find the games in the first place since they’re actively looking for them.

I do feel like Kong’s change to the new games queue isn’t the right way to go, but I have to point out that Kong isn’t the only site for games. there are other sites out there with totally different audiences and it’s possible for games to become big elsewhere even if they never show up on Kong at all.

There is no reason at all that you couldn’t fit the 50-100 most recent games on a single page, and have another page that lists the 50-100 most highly rated games released in the last x period of time. They have shown no interest in this though.

Probably because there’s a ton of research to tell you that most people don’t have any interest in looking through that sort of gigantic list. Most people want to be given what’s already popular. I’m pretty sure the game charts at the bottom of the homepage are there for search engines ranking, not because people are using them constantly :P

I’d like new games to be more visible on the site as well, because I think some great games are being overlooked here. However, the problem is that 80% of the new games queue is made up of reskinned / cloned games, and tutorials or beginner uploads. Even of what’s left, most games don’t make it to the 3.5 rating that gets onto the hot new games list.

I did have a few ideas to fix this – I don’t think it has to be an either/ or thing – but sadly the suggestions thread is only accepting forum suggestions, so I can’t post them now xD

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Topic: Kongregate / A Now Entering the Twilight Zone name-change proposal

+1 for Bieber Zone

if u want chat list priority then aaaaaaaaaBIEBERBIEBERBIEBERBIEBER would be alright too.

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Topic: Technical Support / Having trouble signing out

Try reloading now – I couldn’t sign out earlier either. HTe button was fixed literally right now, for me.

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Topic: Kongregate / *Official Announcement* [Kongregate Live Event with Samntha ¿¿¿] In 20 Mins

my kongpanions are turning into ms paint drawings. is this related XD

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Topic: Game Programming / Removing my game?

Its the best and only option.

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Topic: Kongregate / Can I submit an in-development game?

IF the login is optional and you don’t have any external ads or inapp purchases associated with it, you’er fine.

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Topic: Kongregate / Open Letter to Jim Greer

Originally posted by metroidman: the consumers want originality

Check the number of gameplays on the games you’re frustrated about. Most people don’t want originality. The ones who do, don’t pay enough for Kongto base the business around.

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Topic: Kongregate / Anyone notice some games on Kongregate have been disappearing lately?

Originally posted by graveyard890:

Bumputeo didnt work for 3 years, I wonder how come they started removing it right when it got active by users who wanted a dead game chat room to RP in.

Perhaps because more users in the room meant more likely that one of them would flag it for not working, or possibly because the developers (of each game) noticed the extra traffic on a gamer they no longer wanted to support, and removed it.

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Topic: Kongregate / Anyone notice some games on Kongregate have been disappearing lately?

Bumputeo was removed because it didn’t work. Not sure about Scribble Online but I’d bet it was something similar.

sorry for actually answering your question, I feel like I’m offtopic :P

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Topic: Kongregate / Anyone notice some games on Kongregate have been disappearing lately?

Bumputeo was removed because it didn’t work. Not sure about Scribble Online but I’d bet it was something similar.

sorry for actually answering your question, I feel like I’m offtopic :P

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Topic: Kongregate / Another quick Q about "Hot New Games"

To get into the regular Hot New Games section you need 3.5+. Your game stays in that list as long as it keeps up a 3.5+ rating, so even if you have friends who initially like it, it will only remain in the list if the general Kong players also think highly of it as well. The game goes on the list based on release day, not when it reaches the rating, so if you upload a game that starts on a low rating, and then improves after a month or two, it will be a few pages back in the list.

The list on the frontpage is handpicked, but it’s picked from games with at least a 3.5 rating – usually more like 3.8 or above. And it needs to be a solid rating, not an “I barely reached the bar” one.

(unless the game is an MMO – those are promoted differently.)

I would recommend that you focus on what needs to improve within your games themselves rather than trying to work out the easiest route to featuring in the hot games lists. If the game wasn’t rated well enough to make it into Hot New Games then it doesn’t really matter how close it came, and knowing what you missed it by .5 of a rating doesn’t really mean much in terms of your next upload.

The biggest tip I can give you to make your games better is this: listen to the negative comments you get, not the praise. Right now, the comments that criticise the game or offer lengthy critique or suggestions have replies from you either telling people their opinion is “wrong” or saying stuff like “I’m just a single person. I have a life of my own outside of a past-time”. You will never improve if you filter out everything except praise. The people posting how much they like the game already gave you a 5/5, so if you’re not happy with the final rating you got, you need to accept that your game needs to appeal to more of the people who rated it lower.

Also, don’t tell people to delete their saves by moving the Flash storage slider or deleting chat.kongregate, as per some of your comment replies). Anyone who did that just deleted their save for every single game they play on Kong. That’s guaranteed to get you downvotes if people realise :P

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Topic: Kongregate / Today's BOTD game has profanity

Originally posted by adv0catus:
Originally posted by saybox:
[…]I just wanted to make sure the OP actually got a proper response to a valid question.

Except, you’re wrong. Swear words are filtered in chat, not censored. The difference is that you’re still allowed to say the words and in context, people should know what you mean, but the words themselves aren’t visible. The quote makes it pretty explicitly clear that swearing is allowed. It even says “Some swearing can be allowed” where, in this context, the “some” comes from my explanation earlier. If a specific moderator does not allow swearing, they’re the exception, not the rule. That’s them being overly strict and not adhering to the guidelines. In cases like that, they should be reported so the administrators can reclarify the swearing rule for them. Using an outlier to justify a false statement is just wrong.

K, thanks for your input. It’s irrelevant to my original post or the OP and we’re clearly going to disagree on whether removing entire words from chat is censoring them but I don’t think that invalidates the point of what I said.

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Topic: Kongregate / Today's BOTD game has profanity

Originally posted by Holy2334:
Besides it says it in their chat guidelines you are allowed to swear.
Originally posted by Kongregate:
Because everyone using Kongregate are 13 and over, the language throughout the site should be approximately PG-13. Some swearing can be allowed (we here at Kongregate are no saints), but it should not be directed at other users (see “Don’t harass others”).

First – the rules are unclear, as I outlined already. Chat has a language filter along with mods who may or may not allow some swearing, and didn’t people may interpret the conduct guidelines differently. “Can be allowed” is not the same as “is fine.” Either way, it’s far more helpful to explain things politely to someone than to be obnoxious or condescending.

Second – this thread is full of people who’ve previously made complaints along the lines of “the community sucks compared to how it used to be”. But look at the replies this thread has, most of them are either making fun of the OP, or just condescending. I’m not interested in debating the semantics of exactly what is or isn’t allowed with you, because I just wanted to make sure the OP actually got a proper response to a valid question.

Originally posted by The_Atari_Kid:

What is the world coming to? Nobody, show OP this game.

when “Don’t Shit Your Pants” was released, there were quite a few threads debating the language in it. Two different admins weighed on discussions, with Greg commenting that there was “concern” over badging because of how it might affect chat and aC explaining Kong’s policy on stuff liek swearing in games. The main difference, though, was that most people didn’t feel the need to be condescending to those who weren’t keen on the language used.

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Topic: Kongregate / Today's BOTD game has profanity

Originally posted by adv0catus:

All chats allow sweating.

That’s not true. There are plenty of moderators who won’t allow any swearing in their room.

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Topic: Kongregate / Today's BOTD game has profanity

Originally posted by fhhuber:

The game violates Terms of service for dhat… therefore it should never have been given a badge. it should have been deleted.

The rules for game uploads disallow both “obscene” and “inappropriate” games, without specifying exactly what counts as obscene or inappropriate. Some countries or upbringings will have different views to others on these. For example, in Germany games with swastikas in are banned from stores, while no other country in the world considers that something which makes a game inappropriate. It’s worth pointing out that swearwords are, by definition, obscene, so interpreting a ban on obscenity as being a ban on swearing is fair, even if it’s incorrect in this case.

So it’s a valid concern. It’s also true that many (most?) chatrooms on Kong don’t allow swearing, and the Conduct Guidelines have a section that basically says swearing on the site is discouraged, even if it’s not always silenceable. The Terms of Service itself also mentions “objectionable” content, and like with the earlier phrasing, different people will consider different content to be objectionable.

Anyway, despite that, Kong does allow swearing in games on the site, and some chats allow some amount of swearing. There’s not much you can do except not play the game, but on the plus side, since it was BotD yesterday, it;s already gone :P

Also, it’s better to flag games or email Kong about them directly instead of posting in the forums, for situations like this.

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Topic: Kongregate / advocatus

Originally posted by Darkscanner:

I bet you $20 he won’t respond

I accept your bet.

Adv0, I will pay you $10 if you respond here.


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Topic: Game Programming / {AS3} Game Help ?

You shouldn’t have too much trouble with this if you have some basic AS3 knowledge.

You’ll need:

  • a counter that counts up
  • a button to start and stop the counter
  • a condition to check if you stopped it on the right time
  • a soundtrack by justin bieber
  • an end screen to tell you if you won
  • another button to reset everything and play again

Which bits are you unclear on how to make?

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Topic: Kongregate / Commercial games on Kong

I’m not a fan either. However, the market prefers that sort of purchasing rather than paying upfront for a game – those games are insanely profitable. So I think we’re stuck with them.

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Topic: Game Programming / AS2 Shared Object help

Don’t call Flush every 5 seconds. That will cause lag for many people (especially laptop users or people who don’t have storage set to unlimited).

Originally posted by player_03:

It won’t save until you call flush().

It won’t permawrite the file til you call flush, but flush is called automatically when you close the game anyway. so I don’t think that was the problem.

The code in the first post works fine exactly as it is. It’s more likely that wherever you’re saving VARIABLE1, you have a mistake.
Here’s some slightly updated code to show the saving and loading is working fine. Try it in a new file :P

so = SharedObject.getLocal("FILENAME2");
if ( == 1){
trace("Loaded VARAIBLE1, value is "+VARIABLE1)
} else {
VARIABLE1 = 0; = VARIABLE1; = 1;
trace ("Created save file and SAVED "

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Topic: Kongregate / Controversial Game

@Bobby: I updated my post after someone PMed me suggesting that Han was trying to make fun of the dev replies.

I’m on the fence about it, but it doesn’t affect the rest of what I said.

If this isn’t for publicity, everyone else needs to back WAY off and contact admins asap.

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Topic: Kongregate / Controversial Game

If this is some sort of promotion / roleplay / publicity for Clout, please make it much more obvious.

First of all, is HanLecter Delosford’s alt?? One of the comments on Clout was posted by Lecter but looks like it was supposed to be from Delorsford. I took a screenshot since I’m sure the comment won’t be there long. I didn’t post the screenshot because it’s gonna be pretty obvious who will say I edited it, and who will accept it’s real, and I don’t want one screenshot to be all that people talk about from my post.

EDIT to say that someone PMed me and suggested the comment from Han was sarcasm. I will reserve my opinion on that but I updated my paragraph above :P

Regardless, right now it appears the dev is using alts to promote his game through some sort of weird roleplay promotion. I hope that’s all it is. I don’t play the game and if this is supposed to make me want to, NOPE. It makes me a little scared.

Last week I was on skype with someone who goes to FSU. His phone buzzed. “Shooter in the library.”

It is not a good feeling to hear something like that.

The shooter turned out to have been posting on Facebook for a long time about people watching him, groups that were out to get him, and so on. Nobody was too bothered – til it was too late. Problem is, it’s hard to tell apart the ones who are trolling for a reaction from the ones who actually think like that. Despite popular stereotypes, people can hold beliefs like that to the point that they will kill over them, while still appearing to function normally the rest of the time.

I’m not suggesting that Delosford is gonna go shoot anyone. Since at least one of the people he’s arguing with is an alt, then it’s looking more like a way to get people to view the game. The comment drama from last year’s argument about pay to win means has long since died off. So I can definitely accept the idea of controversy in order to generate more views for the game.

However, I feel that this is inappropriate as a way to get more views on a game, if that’s all this is. On the other hand, if these are the views Delorsford actually holds, then this is a serious problem that needs to be handled in a way that doesn’t involve internet posts and forum discussions. Anyone in the know can feel free to drop me a PM and clear things up.

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Topic: Kongregate / Don't buy Kreds! You can be banned for doing so!

I do fraud detection as part of my job with another website.

The biggest markers for fraud is when someone makes a ton of different purchases. It doesn’t make a difference whether it’s with the same card or multiple cards. Sometimes someone will steal one card and max it out, other times they get a bunch of them and take 20 bucks off each one.

We don’t monitor every payment everyone makes – we couldn’t. There’s too many. What happens is that there are various ways in which a high spending account can come up for review, at which point we have to figure out if the purchases are fraudulent or not.

Kong isn’t liable for anything if your account appears to be fraudulent and you get banned. You can still chargeback the money you paid, but realistically, 99% of the times that someone refuses to prove they own the card it’s because they don’t. “Well I do own the card I just decided not to prove it” makes no sense at all and I don’t know how you can post that and not think it might be why you got banned :P

Email Kong’s customer service and prove you’re allowed to use the card instead of raging about it on a forum. It should be clear you don’t get banned for buying Kreds, you get banned if you act like you stole a credit card to buy Kreds with. In the time you’ve spent complaining here trying to persuade people that buying Kreds gets you banned, you could have cleared the whole thing up with Kong :P

Originally posted by Tetsuo_Shima:

Now, assuming they actually were fraudulous, what happens to the actual owner of the card? Shouldn’t he have some way of getting reimbursed (not necessarily by kong obviously)? If kong has a way of checking the identity of the owner of a credit card, they must also have some sort of contact details (other than the obvious account details of the account that’s been deemed engaging in fraudulous activity), shouldn’t they need to notify the owner via those ways that they have potentially been the target of fraudulous activity? How else is this person ever going to be able to do something about it and potentially get reimbursed via whatever means possible. It seems obvious to me, if this person (the actual owner), hasn’t complained or halted previous purchases he’s not going to be aware at that point and never will do anything about it. Is there some sort of mechanism for this in place as well? Or does kong simply take the easy way out to cover their own backs so they won’t be open for a liability suit?

This is what chargebacks are for. You (the real card owner) contact your bank and dispute the charges, and the money is automatically refunded to you. This is also why you get banned if you chargeback money against Kong for a legit purchase – you sign a document stating that the purchase was fraudulent.