Recent posts by saybox on Kongregate

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Topic: Kongregate / May '15 Suggestion Thread

So after recent changes to the new games list, it’s almost impossible to find unless you know it exists. This is bad, but makes sense because 90% of it is junk. On the same note, even from the people who do go through new games, there aren’t enough ratings for unknown games to get the popularity and votes they need to be promoted to Hot New Games.

I suggest that to allow new or less well known devs to make sure their game has a chance to be seen, any game with under 200 ratings should be able to purchase a frontpage spotlight listing for around $5. The listing would only run until the game reached 200 ratings.

This would mean that developers who don’t have a huge following already could get their game rated enough times for it to settle on a fair number. If the game is good enough, after this point it will be in Hot New Games anyway. If not, it will be off the front page pretty quickly as 200 ratings for a frontpaged game doesn’t take long.

The $5 fee is high enough to discourage spam / junk / new devs from putting garbage on the frontpage, because the money wouldn’t be made back in ad revenue before the frontpage listing was over. It’s also low enough that someone serious about their game can afford it. An admin approval process could be added if necessary to prevent troll games being put there though.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / [Suggestion] Replace Postcount Display with Karma Meters

Originally posted by ElBandito81:

@saybox

You do have a good point though. A lot of my concerns come from this sort of a system in a larger community, such as reddit.
Kongregate does have a smaller community, and as such, maybe they can handle the system well. May be worth giving it a shot.

I think it all depends on implementation. On Reddit it works / doesn’t work different per sub; in some subs it’s great and in others it’s a horrible system. IMO it shouldn’t order replies by most popular or rethread topics, though. It would literally (for me) just be a little +/- display like comments have, with a threshold to stop displaying posts. How to make it not work? Don’t moderate it, at all. How to make it work? Prevent brand new accounts with no / not many posts from being able to vote, and give mods the power to vote-silence forum users so that people miusng the system stop having their votes affect anything. You definitely have to assume that people would do their best to mess the system up for everyone, and work in ways to minimise the effects.

Of course you can argue that the above is more work for everyone for a system that isn’t needed as such, but I’m assuming that the hypothetical implementation is one Kong decided to give unlimited dev time to, so the extra work needed doesn’t affect the pros and cons of it.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / [Suggestion] Replace Postcount Display with Karma Meters

Originally posted by ElBandito81:

@saybox

You do have a good point though. A lot of my concerns come from this sort of a system in a larger community, such as reddit.
Kongregate does have a smaller community, and as such, maybe they can handle the system well. May be worth giving it a shot.

I think it all depends on implementation. On Reddit it works / doesn’t work different per sub; in some subs it’s great and in others it’s a horrible system. IMO it shouldn’t order replies by most popular or rethread topics, though. It would literally (for me) just be a little +/- display like comments have, with a threshold to stop displaying posts. How to make it not work? Don’t moderate it, at all. How to make it work? Prevent brand new accounts with no / not many posts from being able to vote, and give mods the power to vote-silence forum users so that people miusng the system stop having their votes affect anything. You definitely have to assume that people would do their best to mess the system up for everyone, and work in ways to minimise the effects.

Of course you can argue that the above is more work for everyone for a system that isn’t needed as such, but I’m assuming that the hypothetical implementation is one Kong decided to give unlimited dev time to, so the extra work needed doesn’t affect the pros and cons of it.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / [SUGGESTION] Better Vote System

Works on Newgrounds. Also doesn’t work on Newgrounds, depending who you ask.

I like the idea of high level users having more voting power, because not enough people rate games currently and the extra “you’re special, you should vote” incentive might be nice to have. It might be better to give the extra votes to people who vote on games a lot, too – I’d be totally fine with someone who’s rated 5,000 games having their vote count double.

But a 10x multiplier is way too high. Most active level 1 accounts are genuine, not bots. Their vote shouldn’t be totally wiped out by higher level votes.

A potentially better solution, but harder to implement for Kong would be that the more votes a game has, the less a vote is worth from someone with high voting power. Every 500 total rates on a game after the first 1k drops your own vote’s value by 1, if it’s above 1. So if you have x5 voting power, and vote on a game that only has 24 other votes, your vote counts x5, because those games need the extra votes. If the game is popular and gets 2,500 ratings, your vote has now dropped back to only being worth 1x for that game. This is to prevent a bunch of high level accounts teaming up to blame a popular game.

Originally posted by adv0catus:

So people that may have been on Kong for years but don’t actively badge hunt don’t matter as much?

Not in this context. If you’re not getting points and levelling up, you’re probably not playing that many games – maybe you just play one MMO a lot, or something. Giving your votes extra weight doesn’t make sense if that’s the case. THe extra voting power should be for people who play a lot of different games, understand points, votes, what voting does, etc. Setting it by level seems like the easiest way for Kong to filter it.

Originally posted by FlyingCat:

As I’ve said before in threads where players are rewarded for being high levels, it may encourage users who otherwise wouldn’t use them to use hacking tools. I can imagine a few devs will make a few high leveled accounts to bump themselves up a bit.

Rating games may not be an important enough feature for people to do that, but it may lead to a slippery slope where one group has more voice than another.

I don’t think so – a level 65 account is still quite a lot of work to set up, for what wold only be a few extra votes, even as originally suggested. A dev that was artificially weighting their rating like this would be easier to spot – level 65 accounts mass rating a game from the same IP would be far easier to track – and the number of votes a popular game will get would minimise the impact anyway.

 
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Topic: Kongregate APIs / Confused on how I make money on kongregate

Kong puts ads on your game for you. You can use the API to get a bonus on the percentage of the ad share they pay, but the API itself isn’t for ads, it’s for things like high scores.

 
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Topic: Kongregate APIs / Is it all right with Kongregate if I do this or will I get banned

If you mean forums outside of Kong, Kong won’t care but it’s kind of spammy and the boards might ban you. Check the rules in each forum and look for forums where it’s okay to post your projects.

 
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Topic: Kongregate APIs / What are the rules about poping the game out of Kongregate frame to play in full screen mode?

Not usually allowed afaik. I think games with Kred purchases can do so because money.

 
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Topic: Game Programming / "Title has already been taken" after failed upload

Either wait for it to appear on your profile (there’s often a delay now), rename it, contact Kong support, or guess the URL to edit it and reupload.

 
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Topic: Game Programming / AS2 SharedObject help?

Your example isn’t a bertter solution, for two reasons. First, you shouldn’t be saving level data separately to map data anyway. Whne you change level map data would need to reset immediately. You can’t end Flash mid frame unless you crash it, so if the variables are all updated on the same frame ,your save data is there either way. Second, if your player closes between levels and hasn’t manually saved, then all his progress is gone because auto flush won’t be doing anything.

However I did say in my post that some games like RPGs are better to not constantly autosave. If you need the player’s location to always be up to date, no matter what, then you should be writing to .data constantly. But most RPGs save at selected points, in which case you’d do things your way – keep variables in game, then transfer them all to data when you’re ready to save them. If you save them to data as you play, the player can’t load an earlier save, but in an idle game you generally want the save to be as recent as possible.

Same for other genres. Made a quiz game? You’re gonna want to save whenever the player gets a question right. If you leave it 5 mins between saves, someone could find a lot of progress gone. Racing game? Probably no need to save mid-race, unless you have a 24 hour endurance race, in which case you’ll want to be saving as much as you can.

The lag isn’t caused by AS2, it’s a Flash Player issue.

It’s caused if both the following are true:
- local storage is set to anything other than unlimited for that domain
- you have a bunch of other saves from the same domain (even if you’re nowhere near the storage limit)

Now remember that by default Flash Player’s internal storage is set to 1mb for every site you visit. That means that anyone on a new laptop, a fresh install of Chrome, etc, is on a machine that isn’t properly configured for your game. All these players will have unplayable lag in your game if you keep running flush all the time. Never ever assume the user is going to set their machine up properly….. design for your gran to be able to use it.

THere is only one point where you should call flush, and that’s where you create the save file. You’re gonna want to make sure the cookie is saved right away, because you don’t know if there’s enough space for it or not until you first attempt to save it. After that, the only reason to use it is for players who don’t believe autosave works, or if you keep adding more and more stuff to it and might exceed the space limits later on in the game.

Finally, your assumption about player behavior is incorrect. The player who gets unplayable lag every 30 seconds in the game he’s playing will 1/5 and not come back. The player who comes back to find his save is deleted has alreasdy come back, which means he’;s likely enjoyed your game enough to upvote it, and will be more lenient on things like save files going missing. IOt’s not ideal, but it’s also worth remember save files going missing through corrutped data is very rare and it’s usually caused by people deleting cookies without realising game save weill also be wiped.. The lag issue, on the other hand, affects far more players up front because new machines don’t come set up correctly.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Petition: Clarify the Technical Support forum's description.

Suggestion for this thread: come up with a better way to help people find the right forum easily.

I would note that tech support is linked from the top menu and I’d guess people don’t even see the description before getting there. If anything, it should be turned into more of a generic help board where people were redirected to wherever they needed to be posting.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / [Suggestion] Replace Postcount Display with Karma Meters

That makes sense. I have the opposite opinion though, I think that a rep system would cut back on people posting for the sake of it, and make people think out their posts more. I dpn’t think people would stop posting unpopular opinions – it would just more clearer when someone was disagreeing but had genuine reasons to do so, compared to someone posting unpopular posts because they’re trying to be edgy or controversial or just don’t like Kong for some personal reason.

 
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Topic: Game Programming / AS2 SharedObject help?

That isn’t true. The stuff in .data is handled the same as any other variable in your code until flush is called, at which point it’s all saved to the cookie in one go. There isn’t any more or less chance of data corruption. Variables don’t randomly get corrupted when the game is running and the cookie is only written when flush is called – this is why flush can return a “pending” status, and why you can write to .data.whatever & read back from it even if local storage is disabled.

I’m not sure how having one variable instead of two can make something harder to debug either.

For an idle game there’s no reason to constantly call flush rather than constantly keeping the data updated ready to automatically flush. Your version with a 60 second save&flush just means that someone who closes the game 59 second seconds after it last saved will find 59 seconds of progress wasn’t saved. It also means that someone who doesn’t have their Flash Player storage settings done properly will get lag every minute that they play the game, and even though it’s their fault, you’ll get the 1/5 rating for it.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / [Suggestion] Replace Postcount Display with Karma Meters

@elbandito: I’;m pretty indifferent on this but I don’t think your logic follows. First you say that users shouldn’t see postcount as a trophy, and concerns over postcount spamming are just an attitude problem – and then you say you’re concerned about karma being seen as a trophy and you think that people would be posting just to get upvotes.

I don’t see any particular reason to change it, though I’d be fine with it being added as well. I think in most cases where an unpopular opinion is downvoted into oblivion, the opinion actually wasn’t something that anyone needed to hear. I think the system works really well with game comments, other than the top comments display (which wouldn’t apply to forum threads in my ideal implementation of it). It’s very rare to see a comment get downvoted when it’s actually worthwhile – but a caveat, I’m of the opinion that “this game sucks 1/5 because no mute” on a game with a 4.0 rating isn’t worthwhile.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Petition: Clarify the Technical Support forum's description.

I think it’s fine but not for the reasons being discussed above.

People who end up there don’t know the game forums or other support methods exist, so a technical support forum is logically where they’d go. From there they can be pointed to the right place to ask for help. It’s a good way to make sure most of them end up in a board with people willing to help them, rather than somewhere where they might get less useful replies, like OT.

 
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Topic: Game Programming / AS2 SharedObject help?

blah blah blah AS3 blah blah blah… every time I see a post telling someone to use AS3 I just read it as an attempt to be seen as a great programmer without making the effort to help other people. The code posted would fail in AS3 as well and give the same number of errors, cuz it’s not actually failing, it’s functional code that isn’t being told to do anything else.

1. You have loading code but no saving code, like stain said. Use his code to save data.

2. You have if (savedGame.data.exists == undefined) but you never set exists to true so it will always be undefined. So your code will always reset the variables to 0 again.

If you need me to post the full working code or some examples of how to use, let me know.

Bonus protip: flush is not required and you should use it sparingly OR NEVER AT ALL or else you’ll cause lag. The game will call flush by itself when you stop playing unless flash / your PC crashes. That will often corrupt the save anyway so it makes little difference. What you should be doing is updating the .data.whatever variables constantly so that when the game is flushed, everything saves.

Also, you can save a bunch of time by writing direct to the .data. variables if you’re not being graded on the programming itself.

So instead of
foodResource++
savedGame.data.foodResource = foodResource

you can just use

savedGame.data.foodResource++

Don’t do this if there’s a situation where someone might need to load an earlier save, or if there’s some reason you don’t want continous auto-saving (eg you made an RPG with specific save points). Otherwise, it saves a ton of time.

PS: also make sure you have Flash allowed to save locaally as well.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Enough with the idle "games" bullcrap

Originally posted by Ubernomaden:
I don’t care what he “tried to say”.I only care about what was published.

You have 6 posts in this thread talking about how he “should” have worded his post. That sounds a lot like you care about what he was trying to say, IMO.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Enough with the idle "games" bullcrap

Originally posted by Ubernomaden:

Well you clearly didn’t understand it either because you couldn’t explain how slow development logically lead to saturation. All you did was erase the first sentence and elaborate on the second. Way to miss the point.


“Most idle games are clones or rushed, cheaply made pieces of work which add nothing new to the formula” is a better way to explain that “the genre is developing slowly” – because it explains why development has stagnated. Following that with the point that there are a lot of idle games in the genre being release, you can make ther conclusion that stagnation and high number of game released makes for market saturation.

Why would you want me to reuse what Wattro wrote if you were already struggling to understand his post with the original wording?

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Enough with the idle "games" bullcrap

Originally posted by Ubernomaden:

I’m feeling very generous so I’ll show you how it’s done.

The good news is that the genre is developing slowly. People are knocking off popular idle games so the genre appears to be saturating itself on Kong.


You’re welcome.


Your version misses the point he was trying to make AND becomes more misleading. It’s still a non-sequitar and still sloppy writing. There’s still an assumption that lots of idle games are being uploaded, and it’s less clear why it’s good the genre is developing slowly.

If you’re determined that the original post wasn’t good enough, something like this would be alright:

Since most idle games are clones or rushed, cheaply made pieces of work which add nothing new to the formula, the large number being released is simply saturating the market.

Personally I prefer to assume the reader is a/ aware of context and b/ not stupid – it’s okay to assume that the reader knows there are lots of idle games being uploaded when the title of the thread is “enough with the idle games”. And reading this thread it appears only one person was unable to understand what Wattro meant so i think his point was clear enough.

Originally posted by player_03:
Originally posted by Holy2334:

Rychip is right though, if you want to kill a trend you need to make another monster to takes its place. The only thing that I fear though is that once said game is created we will eventually get another thread complaining about how kongregate is flooded with “insert game gene here.” I guess that’s life I guess.

Perhaps not. Tower defense was a fad before it became a staple, and it didn’t get this many complaints.

As much as I enjoy some idle games, I can understand why some say they “aren’t games.” I wouldn’t be surprised if the next craze gets a more positive response.

Tower Defence games got a ton of threads about them too. Mostly it was along the lines of “Greg stop badging tower defences they’re all the same game.” But since then Kong has made it much harder to find games that aren’t trending right now, so the reaction is probably bigger to idle games as a result.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Kongregate Avatar Wall

me too!

but please put mrgravy as far away from me as possible :D

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Why so much Idle?

Originally posted by bobby71983:

I don’t think that paradox applies well to something that has no notable downside. If something is free, you are much less likely to be anxious because if you don’t like the first thing, you just get the next thing, and the next, and the next, until you like it. It was free, so you don’t really care.

That isn’t what happens, though. Once you’re established on Kong, sure. But Kong is designing the site around funneling casual players into playing a good game as quickly as possible, from where they prompt for account setup. If you’re a longterm user of the site already, then you know where to find the lists of new games and good new games already.

Originally posted by bobby71983:

How can you possibly use this site as proof for anything? Nothing new has been tried in the 4 years I have been here. Minor layout changes and a reshuffling of the buttons, but what’s behind the buttons is still the same. You have nothing to compare anything to.

things pete said that are also relevant

The new games queue has never been used much. It’s been through the same design changes as other lists on the site, and still didn’t see an increase in use. meanwhile ,the hot new games queue came along and did see a massive uptake. At the same time, when I first joined Kong, the new games queue wasn’t full of the junk it is now – there were plenty of games that weren’t great, but the endless clones and reskins didn’t exist. Additionally, the menu link to it was more prominent in the old design, and the weekly (uncurated) leaderboard used to be featured on the frontpage of Kong. Since then, the new games queue has gradually seen less and less use no matter what was changed. In 2012ish the rating system was quietly altered so that games needed fewer ratings for the number to be displayed. Still didn’t help. New queues were added for people to specifically find games without any ratings. Still no use.

Then there was K+ and the beta queue – ostensibly for legit devs to playtest a game before release. In reality it’s pretty much exclusively used to allow hardcore MMO players to get a headstart in games. Devs can’t upload to this queue unless Kong approves them, so it can’t be used like you’d expect; you can’t use it to actually help a dev improve their game before they publicly release it. I have no idea if this queue still exists, I can’t find it now, but my impression was that there weren’t many devs interested in using it for genuine betas, because the audience was too big for testing a game before release unless Kong was sponsoring the game. Otherwise, no other site would go near it for sponsorship because so many people had already played it.

The fact is that there are more low quality games on Kong than people interested in playing or rating them. Most people are here for higher quality games. Kong’s business is based around getting people to play the latest MMO that they might spend their money on, and while I’m not personally a fan of MMOs then

Having said all that, I think the way you guys are looking at it is too black and white – both of you sound like you see it as a choice between “show the new games queue” or “don’t show the new games queue”. Problem is, neither of those options work. Everyone needs to accept that most new games on the site are garbage, and expecting casual Kong members to be happy looking through them is to ignore the fact that even most mid/hardccore Kong users have never wanted to do this. Any solution that you suggest which involves “show all these games to everyone” isn’t going to work and it’s extremely unlikely that Kong will listen to it.

I suggest that there may be better options. One possible solution would be to allow devs to pay $5 to promote their game on the frontpage, up until it reaches 150 ratings. The number of pageviews for that would probably be less than the game made back in ad revenue, so it would be no use to people uploading junk. Major devs wouldn’t need it because they can get their 150 ratings from existing fans, and genuine devs who did pay would find that a game with a good rating on Kong made far more back than their $5 purchase. The devs who were genuine but didn’t manage the 3.5 rating would still benefit from the extra views and comments the game would likely receive, so it wouldn’t be a total waste for them, and for the people who decided to pay to intentionally promote junk, the ad would likely be gone in 15 minutes anyway, Kong gets a lot of traffic.

Alternatively, I’ve suggested in the past that games with few ratings would benefit if people were incentivised more to check them out and play / rate them. Add extra points for it, or badges for rating them, or whatever – yeah you’d get some people who just used a script but i don’t think the numbers would be big enough to have an impact on the overall ratings the games were ending up with since they’d also be getting more legit rates.

Where idle games specifically are concerned (sorry, I gave up on quoting), the problem is more that the trending genre will always find it easier to get upvotes under the current system, because people are playing what’s promoted and then finding new games in the same genre with the tag system. Once they get upvoted, the cycle starts over. This still doesn’t affect how good any other game on the site is (perceived to be) but it can maker it harder tofind, which my suggestions above would resolve.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Why so much Idle?

Originally posted by bobby71983:

Hey saybox, then those people would just click the game ranked 1 on the list. So your comment about “research” is worthless, because it is an objectively better system than what is currently in place.

You also throw the word “research” around quite a lot to justify things you claims. If research is biased, it’s worthless, so you can’t just look at any random research someone did and claim it as factual. At some point, you have to trust your own common sense instead of letting other people tell you what makes sense.

People want as much information as possible without having to exert much effort for that information. Current system requires too many clicks navigating a website that is not very user friendly.

People will say they want information, but it tends not to be true. Look up analysis paralysis if you like. The tl;dr is that the more info and choices you give people, the harder they find it to make a choice.

There is also a theory called the Paradox of Choice which suggests that too much choice and personal freedom leads to anxiety and frustration, though studies on it had mixed results.

Try it yourself if you like. Got a little brother? Offer him a cookie. He’ll probably take it immediately. Offer him a choice of ten different cookies and say he can only have one. He’ll take much longer to decide which one he wants.

The point is that if you want people to do something, you keep the options simple. If you present them with a list of 50 things they won’t just click #1, they’ll get stuck on the page trying to decide which to click. Kong benefits more from giving them just a few options so that they move past that screen as soon as possible, since the aim is to get people playing games right away.

Power users can find the more advanced options later. In this case, the hot new and new new queues are comparatively harder to find depending on how likely it is for the typical user to want to view them.

And there’s a simpler point you’re missing. Your idea of “objectively better” is clearly not, because its been tested on the site since 2008 and found lacking. The new new games queue didn’t get used. And the amount of use it did get dropped as the number of games being uploaded increased. Making it more visible doesn’t solve the problem that 90% of the queue is spam, reskins, or junk. There is no reason for the typical Kong user to ever view it. Even before the queue was hidden, most games didn’t get enough views or ratings to mean anything.

If anything, the system is objectively good because most of Kong’s audience is being funnelled quickly into playing games that people rated highly, which is probably what Kong wants to happen.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / Why so much Idle?

Originally posted by Eketek:

I speak both as a long-time player of games on this site and as a developer who recently had a major project get thrashed in terms of ratings and plays by random “idle” and “clicker” games. It was very baffling when it occured

I wanted to bring up some points about your game before anything else, which may help with what you make next. I’m assuming the game you’re talking about was Orthot II.

- The blue screen with the text on at the start, it’s not clear what it is (it appears after the loading screen so it doesn’t seem to be for that). It’s likely to put players off because it makes it look like that game is some complex technical thing.
- You use the default Unity text boxes for the next screen, as well as hitting player’s with a text dump.
- starting off by claiming your game is the next big thing is not a good idea because most platyers will read it and immediately start looking to prove that that’s not the case, consciously or not.
- You completely wrote off laptop users on the instructions screen.
- there is no obvious way to close the instructions page
- you can only move one tile at a time
- there’s move text dumps as you progress
- there’s nothing in the first area of the game to actually do
- even after walking around a bit and getting to some white area, it was still unclear what I was trying to do. This was the point i stopped playing.

none of these are things that have any connection to other games on the site, they’re things within your game that needed improving.

This brings me to the main point I need to make.

You aren’t directly competing against the other games on Kong

Your game lives or dies on it’s own merits. You may be limiting your audience if you make a game in a niche genre, but that limitation is there regardless of whether the other games exist or not.

Right now idle games are popular, but before that it was tower defense games, and before that it was physics games. Personally I can’t stand physics games, but it was popular so I just had to ignore them. The popular genres jumps up in rating and visibility because demands outweighs supply. People are more likely to +rate a game if you offer them one that matches what they’re looking for, and more likely to find the games in the first place since they’re actively looking for them.

I do feel like Kong’s change to the new games queue isn’t the right way to go, but I have to point out that Kong isn’t the only site for games. there are other sites out there with totally different audiences and it’s possible for games to become big elsewhere even if they never show up on Kong at all.

There is no reason at all that you couldn’t fit the 50-100 most recent games on a single page, and have another page that lists the 50-100 most highly rated games released in the last x period of time. They have shown no interest in this though.

Probably because there’s a ton of research to tell you that most people don’t have any interest in looking through that sort of gigantic list. Most people want to be given what’s already popular. I’m pretty sure the game charts at the bottom of the homepage are there for search engines ranking, not because people are using them constantly :P

I’d like new games to be more visible on the site as well, because I think some great games are being overlooked here. However, the problem is that 80% of the new games queue is made up of reskinned / cloned games, and tutorials or beginner uploads. Even of what’s left, most games don’t make it to the 3.5 rating that gets onto the hot new games list.

I did have a few ideas to fix this – I don’t think it has to be an either/ or thing – but sadly the suggestions thread is only accepting forum suggestions, so I can’t post them now xD

 
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Topic: Kongregate / A Now Entering the Twilight Zone name-change proposal

+1 for Bieber Zone

if u want chat list priority then aaaaaaaaaBIEBERBIEBERBIEBERBIEBER would be alright too.

 
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Topic: Technical Support / Having trouble signing out

Try reloading now – I couldn’t sign out earlier either. HTe button was fixed literally right now, for me.

 
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Topic: Kongregate / *Official Announcement* [Kongregate Live Event with Samntha ¿¿¿] In 20 Mins

my kongpanions are turning into ms paint drawings. is this related XD