Topic: Serious Discussion /
Can Communism Work?
I hate to interrupt a heated argument, but oh well.
1. So your argument for the idea of non-market market economy includes monopoly.
The problem with that argument is the fact that the real-life communists are the only ones who live in the desert. A desert that they built around themselves. The government IS the monopoly.
Under capitalism new markets always pop up and old ones always expand. Can you name one monopoly that is in place?
Cartels and other such organizations do not count as they are criminal organizations. Capitalism is capitalism when under rule of law, which these organizations do not operate within.
“Non-market free market” is an oxymoron because free market economies and capitalist economies are synonyms. In fact, they are the exact same thing.
“free market and capitalism” and “government ownership and communism” happen to be true.
Every capitalist nation has had a free market and every communist country has government ownership.
Prior to the Progressive Era, what he is describing happened in the US. Companies banded together to monopolize the market, forcing people to work long hours with low wages, and sold their products at exorbitant prices. What essentially happened was that, by manipulating the business of a given product, corporations became so powerful that they could buy out failing businesses or force them out of business by offering lower prices. Then, they worked to create the desert-oasis metaphor JohnnyBeGood referred to. Private enterprise controlled the water source independent of government interference; and they thankfully never became the government.
Originally posted by PatriotSaint:
2. Now you’re talking of regional effects of roads and bridges that happen to be built by the government.
Still does not explain how it violates the free market.
But the government does provide services that “violate the free market”. For instance, a lot of countries have healthcare provided by the government. In that case, businesses no longer provide that service to people because the government makes it readily available. Same thing with roads and bridges. Because the government has control in creating policies which prohibit the everyday business owner from either providing that service themselves, or trying to work around the government’s boundaries (like those interfering with government-made policies), the government interferes with Private enterprise.
You can’t just go starting a business on slavery, right? It’s illegal, after all. And that is government intervention, which technically violates the premise of a free market.
3. I don’t see how responding is trolling, unless trolling is defined as “anything that anyone does not like for any reason”.
Cop-out answer. Your white flag is up, I guess. Feel free to take it down if wanted.
In his defense, your views on communism are wrong. You’re reasoning—provided I get this right—is this:
1. Capitalist and Communist economies are based from their theories, which creates two examples of each: the theoretical version (from Smith and Marx’s original models) and the real-life version (the one that turns out in practice). 2. Theoretical and Real-life instances of Capitalism have both happened and function, as they are the same. 3. Theoretical and Real-life Communism are not the same, the former being so idealistic that it has never happened. Furthermore, Real-life communism has and will always fail to bring forth the prosperity theoretical communism speaks of. 4. Thus, capitalism is better.
First of all, today’s practice of the free market is not according to Smith’s capitalism. Any government that has control over the way an economy is run (forcing minimum wage, working hours, etc.) is not 100% capitalist. That is a Mixed economy, because it borrows traits one would normally see in a Command Economy. Most Mixed economies are socialist, even if they run on a modified capitalist economy.
Second, Marx’s idea of a command economy is one where all services are provided insofar as barriers such as class, race, gender, sexual orientation, and so on have no bearing on who gets the base needs to survive. Thus, those in control of the means of production are not exploiting the workers who provide the simple labour. Unfortunately, Russia, China, and other countries inspired by this idea implemented them in a way that was as much a corrupt dictatorship as it was communist. It’s not impossible to get communism’s results, but trying to implement Marx’s idea of Communism isn’t impossible. Capitalist nations have had a long time to develop. Communist nations simply returned to capitalism. Communism can still work though, it’s just that communist nations are almost always pressured in to going capitalist when they start to fail.
Finally, theoretical capitalism is what lead to people wanting real-life capitalism. Theoretical capitalism, if it ever really existed, is what lead workers in the US to form the IWW to improve working conditions. Do you see people on the streets complaining about being sick of working 10-12 hours a day, six days a week? Do you see children in every city of every ethnicity being forced to work dangerous (sometimes lethal) jobs? Of course not, because that’s insane! But according to theoretical capitalism, that’s how things worked. The modern model of free-enterprise used in most European countries, as well as the US, does not have any of these issues. Thus it cannot be the same thing.
4. Okay. I accept your white flag. If you wish to take it back, do so. You have the means. If you don’t want people to suspect data-dodging, it helps to prove that you aren’t.
Also, by living better, I mean living conditions, including average personal luxuries, not amount of government influence in people’s lives.
For a Cuban, that miracle-working magic healthcare has a habit of going into the record-burner once that Cuban is designated an undesirable, political enemy, or both, then sent to a political prison camp.
At least you can admit that Communist Party members get special benefits.
Don’t accuse him of data-dodging. Sure, wikipedia ain’t the greatest source, but he did cite it every time to refute points you made. Speaking of data-dodging, where are your sources? There are none that I can see. This leads me to believe one of three things: either that you haven’t logged any research for whatever reason, that you’re misinformed, or that this data you use to defend yourself is BS. Because I like to think of myself as kind and understanding, I’ll assume your case is the first one. As such, I’d appreciate it if I could be linked to wherever your evidence is.
Now I’m confused a little by what you’re saying here about Cuba. Are you saying that non-communist Cubans are treated so poorly that it undermines their access to free health-care? Or that Cuba’s communistic health-care system results in it being designated as “undesirable, political enemy, or both” and that holding this idea in areas unlike Cuba could result in being “sent to a political prison camp”? If you mean the former, then how is that different than the US? People have been and are still being sent to prison for protesting reasonable issues. In the latter question’s case, that is not the fault of communism. Rather it is the fault of those judging a person’s character by their beliefs on how to run a state—not to mention how nonsensical it is to do such a thing.
Also; government influence has an effect on people’s personal luxuries. Street lights, public libraries, public drinking fountains, and so on are all luxuries that are not necessarily available in other countries/places. In theory, I could be forced to pay for these things, but my government uses its resources to provide me these luxuries.