Recent posts by katihi on Kongregate

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Topic: Wartune / Sylph damage formula (partially) revealed

Originally posted by simbu95:

Sylph defense does add your your defense when your transformed, just an interesting tidbit I tested before, don’t have the numbers anymore, but the difference was large with a strong sylph around 15k br. I believe it just added the defense in, but you might test that.

Very nice observation. This is what I always conjectured after I discovered that (sylph_attk + hero_attk) gives the main attack value after transformation. It would have seemed highly logical if the defenses are added up, too (and I also had this feeling from battles, where I felt I received higher damage after transforming back from my orange apollo). But in order to accurately prove this hypothesis, I needed PvP battles, because there aren’t too many strong PvE monsters out there to test with (they should have quite high attk value to prove this directly, I never bothered finding some strong ones, and calculating their attk value first). But in PvP there are many different factors I had to filter out, like the talents, medallions, etc. Now that we know their effects exactly, we can confirm this increase in defenses directly.

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Topic: Wartune / Sylph damage formula (partially) revealed

Finally managed to test more medallion combinations and here is the result: LD medallion is ridiculously overpowered, much more than I’ve ever imagined.

Typically if attacker has a medallion that gives +x% dmg, and defender’s medal gives -y% dmg, then the average damage will be normal_dmg * (100 + x -y)/100.
Nothing strange here so far. However if the attacker wears an LD medallion, it gives a flat 1.4 bonus factor in addition to the damage calculated above.
What’s more if defender wears an LD medallion, that gives a 0.8 factor (reduction) to this damage.

So if both players wear LD medals, the average_dmg = normal_dmg * 1.2 * 1.4 * 0.8= normal_dmg * 1.344, i.e. 34.4% more damage than in the case when no one wears a medallion.
In case attacker has LD, defender only IC, then average_dmg = normal_dmg * 1.22 * 1.4 = normal_dmg * 1.708, i.e. the 70.8% more damage, that’s what I’ve mentioned in my previous comment.
In case attacker has IC, defender LD, then average_dmg = normal_dmg * 1.12 * 0.8 = normal_dmg * 0.896, i.e. 10.4% less than normal damage.

So in a duel between 2 heroes with same stats, but different medallions (LD vs IC), the LD deals ~71% more than normal damage, while the IC deals ~10% less than normal damage!

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Topic: Wartune / Floating Damage

When you deal normal damage (no crit, no block, no brutal edge applied), you will observe 21 different damage values only. Let’s assume that normal dmg is 10000, then you will see the 9000,9100,9200,…,10900,11000 values only.

If you apply for example a lv1 Ruthlessness astral, you can observe much more values, but these values are not 8300,8400,…,11700… Floating is calculated the following way:
choose a random number among the 21 possible basic values, for example 9200. Then choose a random number among 0.93,0.94,0.95,…,1.06,1.07, for example 1.03, then the final dmg will be their product: 9200*1.03=9476.

Thus there are 21*15 possible different scenarios, quite hard to distinguish them, but the average expected dmg will be the same as without the astral.
The lowest possible dmg that may occur is 9000 * 0.93=8370, the highest possible one is 11000 * 1.07=11770, but the average remains 10000.

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Topic: Wartune / Sylph damage formula (partially) revealed

Another update regarding the PvP damage calculations. This time I tried to do some simple PvP battles and determine the effects of medallions and damage reduction talents (e.g. Barrier on mages).
Attacker was a lv80 mage (special thanks to Mortis from kong-S9/EU for helping me in these tests) with 1 item that gave an extra 1000 def ignore
(if you have followed this thread, you might know that this is only a mere +500 dmg, not really an ignore).
The defender was a lv70 mage with 9% dmg reduction from the Barrier talent.

During the setups I only switched the medallions. Due to limited resources, the attacker had either no medals or a Warlord medal ( +18% dmg dealt ) or an LD medal ( +40% dmg dealt ),
the defender had either no medals or a Warlord medal (-8% dmg received) or an IC medal (-18% dmg received).

Below you can find the results of the tests. It can be ssen that typically you subtract the dmg reduction value from the dmg enhancement value, and thus you get a factor in the formula.
So Warlord vs IC is +18%-18%=0, thus nothing changes compared to the normal ‘no v no’ setup.
However there is a very important and huge anomaly when the attacker uses an LD medallion. For instance LD vs IC should give a factor of 1.22, because 40%-18%=22%, but actually
you get a factor of 1.4*1.22=1.708, thus ~71% more damage instead of 22%. In the case LD vs no medals, this factor results in 1.4*1.4=1.96 factors, thus giving 96% more damage instead of 40%.
This phenomenon didn’t occur when attacker used Warlord medallion. It would be really interesting to test more setups, like LD vs LD, or IC vs IC, to determine the possible existence of similar extra factors.
Currently I can’t decide if Warlord medallion is nerfed due to its unlimited usage, or only LD medallion (or maybe IC, too?) has such a unique bonus. Hopefully I can answer this in a few days, too.

1000 def ignore on attacker, 9% damage reduction on defender from barrier talent (this results in those 0.91 factors)
Common difference refers to the difference between the possible 21 normal damage values in the arithmetic progression

no vs no: average damage = normal_dmg * 0.91 + 500 * 0.91, common difference=normal_dmg * 0.91/100
LD vs no: average damage = normal_dmg * 0.91 * 1.4 * 1.4 + 500 * 0.91 * 1.4, common difference=normal_dmg * 0.91/100 * 1.4 * 1.4
no vs IC: average damage = normal_dmg * 0.91 * 0.82 + 500 * 0.91, common difference=normal_dmg * 0.91/100 * 0.82
LD vs IC: average damage = normal_dmg * 0.91 * 1.4 * 1.22 + 500 * 0.91 * 1.4, common difference=normal_dmg * 0.91/100 * 1.4 * 1.22
LD vs W: average damage = normal_dmg * 0.91 * 1.4 * 1.32 + 500 * 0.91 * 1.4, common difference=normal_dmg * 0.91/100 * 1.4 * 1.32
W vs W: average damage = normal_dmg * 0.91 * 1.1 + 500 * 0.91 , common difference=normal_dmg * 0.91/100 * 1.1
W vs IC: average damage = normal_dmg * 0.91 + 500 * 0.91 , common difference=normal_dmg * 0.91/100, the same as in case ‘no vs no’
W vs no: average damage = normal_dmg * 0.91 * 1.18 + 500 * 0.91 , common difference=normal_dmg * 0.91/100 * 1.18.

As always, the updated spreadsheet can be found on the same link as before.

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Topic: Wartune / Sylph damage formula (partially) revealed

Here are some updates on my work on the damage formula.

I tried to find the right place for the QTE damage boosts in my formula, and I almost succeeded to do so. 25% damage boost from my archer’s Delphic Sniper and Incendiary Shot work as a 1.25 factor in the formula,
and the same holds for the mage skill Rain of Fire (see more details later). However, it seems that the mage skill Thunderer’s 25% damage boost gives actually less than a 10% increase. I don’t have any explanation for this,
the most likely hypothesis is that devs once nerfed this skill’s QTE and forgot to update the skill description.

Talking about Rain of Fire, it is a skill that does ‘140% + 0 damage’, and it comes in 2 parts. /The same way as knights’ EDD comes in multiple (3-5) parts, or archer’s Lunatic Fire comes in 3 parts/.
According to my experiments, these 2 partial damages are considered as independent ‘70% + 0 damage’ skills, both can independently crit and can be blocked, too.
Thus the opponent’s defense is subtracted twice, however your extra (1000/500) damage from (lv60, lv70, lv80) sets are added twice, too. (Interesting thing, that the Brutal Edge bonus is halved for both, though …)

Another interesting thing I found is about Will Destroyer astrals. You can see my formula that involves Crit damage and Determination astral’s enhancement, for example a lv8 Determination gives a 1.9 factor in the formula.
When you use a WD astral, for example a lv7 EWD, it gives 35% more damage, i.e. a 1.35 factor. However, they don’t act the same way. Crit damage doesn’t affect the extra damage from sets/items, while the WD damage increases
everything. (Except Brutal Edge bonus, that is unaffected…)

A simple example to imagine the difference: assume that you deal 10000 damage with your skill (sylph_bonus, resistance_bonus and QTE_bonus included) and you have a full 4-pcs lv70 set, that gives 1000 more damage.

Then with a lv8 determination, your skill deals 10000 * 1.9 + 1000=20000 average damage, when it crits, the other crit values you observe are 20000 + 190 * k, where k is an integer from [-10,10].
When your skill doesn’t crit, it deals 10000 + 1000 = 11000 average damage, with other values equal to 11000 + k*100.

If you use a lv8 EWD, your skill deals 10000*1.4 + 1000*1.4 = 15400 average damage, and the other observable values are 15400 + k*140.

As a summary: sylph_bonus, resistance_bonus, crit_bonus, QTE_bonus all affect the same values, while the 1.02 possible archer crit bonus and the WD bonus affect more values in the formula.

I have updated my spreadsheet with experiments about testing these factors, you can download the current version on the same link I provided in my comment.

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Topic: Wartune / Sylph damage formula (partially) revealed

Originally posted by simbu95:I believe this “color bonus” is a myth due to the huge stat gains of sylphs when growth goes up at the same time as aptitudes, without drawing a huge amount of attention to it. At low color it is very significant, but it is no different then evolving a sylph, which also increases growth and is why those sylphs seem so much stronger.

As you can see above, I revised my theory about the color bonus and it turned out that this is simply the 10% bonus damage that your sylph gains when it reaches lvl55. You can see this in the description Advanced Awakening. Thus this bonus is not color-dependent, but level-dependent.

Concerning the other factors (minimal dmg, goddess blessing, QTE dmg, will destroyer, medallion, dmg reduction talents) I’m missing, finally I’ll do some extensive tests in PvP this week, hopefully more factors will go into their right places. But you can see I prefer to do the simplest experiments first, then change the setup step by step, so this will be a long process, too.

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Topic: Wartune / Sylph damage formula (partially) revealed

Originally posted by Holosoth:

Sure, I’d like to look at it if you can upload it.

Here you can find my documented battles

There is a summary worksheet called full_stats, that works like a table of contents to make the navigation through the worksheets easier.
There are also some auxiliary sheets, those were just to verify some of my calculations, you can ignore them.

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Topic: Wartune / Sylph damage formula (partially) revealed

Hi Miklós!

You can see that first I did all my test battles with the simplest possible setup: totally naked hero, no medallions, wings, astrals, PvE against a lv1 atoll Iris, and noted down the
auto attack damage values (after awakening), and considered only crit-free battles (one crit hit increases archer’s dmg by 2% and thus corrupts the data).
Later I put on some more PATK on my hero, and even rearranged ENDU skill points into INT on my apollo (my firt test sylph, and yes, I even used balens to do this), and noticed the increase in the damage.
In the following experiments I added more and more details step by step: changed (low and high lvl) sylphs, tuned my RES RED value, sylph skill points rearranged,
used non-auto skills, added set DMG bonus, ignore DEF bonus, critical hit (with and without determination) with archer crit bonus, QTE dmg bonus, etc…

All my formulae show an almost perfect fitting on the whole data I documented. When I’m speaking about perfect fitting, I mean that only rounding/flooring errors may occur, the relative error is far less than
0.1% (absolute error is less than 6 even during the most complicated fights). As I’ve mentioned, I’m willing to share all my data (currently a spreadsheet with ~30 different worksheets corresponding to different setups)
with anyone who is interested in it.

Considering that 120% limitation in Resistance Reduction, I noticed this (first seemed like a paradox) when I heavily increased my RES RED with will crystals from a relatively high value to another and saw no difference
in the damage I dealt. Turned out that the truth must have been somewhere between -150 and -180. (Iris on atoll has -200 resistance against my electro sylph,
so no difference in damage even with 0 and 210 RES RED from will crystals). When I finished my formula, plugged back these old data and turned out that -166.67 is the lowest possible effective resistance in
the calculations, that corresponds exactly to that 120% dmg bound.

Anyway, I’m open to more discussions about this topic, that I started to examine mainly because I was inspired by your findings on your blog.
Maybe we can continue this conversation in an other form of communication (probably in a more comfortable common language :D )


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Topic: Wartune / Sylph damage formula (partially) revealed

Another update: have you ever wondered about the critical damage? Now here is the formula that calculates the damage during critical hits:
(By the way I shouldn’t reply to my own posts, but anyway, I think some people are interested in these updates in my calculations, even though they do not reply to the topic)

D= ((d-1) * x + y) *r * syph_bonus * 1.5 + set_bonus + fate_bonus(with 20% chance)

Very very bad news, the +500 and +1000 dmg from lv60-70 sets don’t get multiplied by this 1.5 factor, neither does the fate_wheel bonus.

Small interesting thing, if you are an archer: archers have a passive skill to get 2% more dmg after each critical hit (lasts for 5 turns, stackable up to 5 times).
Actually when you first crit, this passive already affects your current damage and even your first critical hit is get multiplied by 1.02.
So the formula above for archers (at the first crit hit)

D= ((d-1) * x + y) *r * syph_bonus * 1.5 * 1.02 + set_bonus * 1.02+ fate_bonus(with 20% chance) * 1.02

At least those bonus numbers do get multiplied by this 1.02 factor.

Similar behavior (additional effect is active before your hit, not only after hit) can be observed when Hercules uses his Shock Chain skill: 187% + 1675 dmg and -30% mdef reduction for 3 turns. Actually this skill first decreases your opponent’s mdef by -30%, then deals 187% + 1675 damage and remains active for 3 more turns. Pretty nice.

So here is my current formula: among many other things it does not cover (yet) the following: PvP, block, will destroyer, determination, ruthlessness, critical rate, etc.
All my experiments were done with an archer against sylph atoll monsters.

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Topic: Wartune / Sylph damage formula (partially) revealed

It turned out that the mysterious sylph bonus factor doesn’t depend on its color or type, it is their Advanced Awakening ability once they reach lv55. The reason why I didn’t notice this was that I didn’t have high lvl white sylphs nor low lvl blue+ sylphs to test with. Thanks, Holo for this observation.

Another thing that might be relevant to people that evolved sylphs have some very high numbers in their skill description: ‘x% + y damage’, for example an evolved Hades can use Awe skill with ‘221% + 3875’ damage. My recent tests suggest an interpretation of these numbers. Simply change the formula in Step 3 to

D = ( (d-1) * x + y ) * r * sylph_bonus

So these numbers get multiplied by resistance and sylph_bonus factor, which is pretty good if your opponent has a weakness against your elemental attack, not so good if they have high resistance.

Certain sets give damage bonus, like 2 items from lv60 set give +500 dmg, 2pcs from lv70 set give +1000. These numbers don’t get multiplied, they are just simply added to the final damage calculated in Step 6.

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Topic: Wartune / Sylph damage formula (partially) revealed

i didn’t have too much time to do more experiments after I posted these calculations, however, from some fast tests it seems so that every sylph that is at least blue quality receives that 1.1 bonus factor, while white and green sylphs get only 1.0.

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Topic: Wartune / Sylph damage formula (partially) revealed

Warning: this a long post, if you are not interested in what’s going on, just read the calculations in Step 1-6 and ignore everything else.

I’ve heard recently a lot of rumours regarding the damage dealt by sylphs, and things that may influence it, so I decided to give it a try and make a thorough scientific experiment and reveal the damage calculations (or at least some parts of them).

To establish an easily reproducible environment, I took off all my astrals (especially the non-stat astrals), set troop count to 0, got rid of all my equipped items, medallions, wings and resistance crystals.
In all of the battles I fought against Iris sylphs on the 1st level of the atoll, and my equipped sylph was mostly a fully enhanced lv80 orange Apollo.
In a few other battles I used a newly created (lv28) white Amazon Queen.

After analyzing hundreds of battles and documenting my damage otuput, I came up with a formula that is capable of reproducing all the exact damage values I observed during my test.
Thus the following process calculates the sylph’s (awakened) non-critical auto-attack damage.

Step 1: calculate d = (hero_primary_atk + sylph_primary_atk – opponent_defense) / 2.0,
/for example Iris’ defense on sylph atoll lv1 is 1000/

Step 2: calculate the resistance bonus/malus r = (100.0 – opponent_effective_resistance * 0.12) / 100.0
(r = 1.12 if your opponent has -100 effective resistance, r = 0.88 if opponent has 100 effective resistance)
/effective resistance = opponent_resistance_vs_your_sylph_type – your_resist_reduction/
If opponent_effective_resistance < -166.7, it has to be limited to -166.7

Step 3: calculate the final average damage D = (d – 1.0) * r * sylph_bonus,
where my white amazon has sylph_bonus = 1.0, orange apollo has a bonus factor 1.1 (no idea about others)

Step 4: generate a random integer k in the interval [-10.0, 10.0]

Step 5: the final damage dealt by your sylph (auto attack) is D + D / 100.0 * k

Step 6: with 20% probabilty increase this number by min(opponent_def, 250.0 * fate_level) / 2.0,
due the “20% chance to ignore 250.0 * fate_level points of target’s defense” passive effect

If the formula above seems too complicated, we can try to interpret the consequences of each step.

Remarks and consequences regarding Step 1: your hero’s primary attack is obviously your own PATK if you are a knight or archer, and MATK if you are a mage. /I tested everything with my archer/
So if you are an archer, there is no point to increase your MATK, it won’t increase your Apollo’s or Gaia’s damage output.
Secondly, it is worth increasing your sylph’s primary attack. For example Apollo’s MATK = 0.0018 * Apollo_INT * Apollo_INT_Aptitude, thus you can either increase its INT by rearranging your skill points into
intelligence (a lv80 apollo has 395 skill points to set, each reset costs 100 balens), or increase its INT_Aptitude by giving sepulcrum to the sylph.
However, weaker/medium players should rather set skill points into Endurance to get more HP, because the difference in the total MATK is very low at low level/low colour sylphs (their Aptitude is very low).

Remarks and consequences regarding Step 2: when you look at your resistances at Battle Protection window, you see the effects of them by hovering the mouse over the numbers.
For example 410 electro resistance is displayed as ‘49% damage reduction to oneself’. You can simply get these numbers by multiplying the resistance value by 0.12 /i.e every 10 points of resistance gives a 1.2% damage reduction/.
Since 410*0.12 = 49.2, it is displayed as 49% reduction. (From the formula you can see that these numbers are actually valid.) Another interesting thing is that the effective resistance is bounded from below.
I found this when I noticed that my apollo deals the same damage againstIris RES_Reduction = 100 and with RES_Reduction = 80.
Since Iris has a natural -100 resistance vs Apollo, and both -100-100 = -200 and -100-80 = -180 are smaller than -166.7, they behave the same way.
The magic number -166.7 was found by applying the final formula on my test data.

Remarks and consequences regarding Step 3: this was the hardest thing to find in my test, and I’m not even sure that this is the right way to interpret the different behaviour I experienced when changed from my orange Apollo to
my white Amazon. Since Amazon has a 1.0 bonus factor (i.e. no bonus), all the hidden calculations were easier to reveal in that case; but they didn’t work when I tried to apply them for the case of Apollo.
This bonus factor is a possible explanation for this phenomenon. However, I haven’t tested this with other (colour/type) sylphs, I’d appreciate any further feedbacks regarding this question. I don’t know whether my orange Apollo
has that bonus, because it is orange, or because it is Apollo (casher sylph). I admit the formula would look much nicer with D = d * r * sylph_bonus, I just put that -1 there to make the fitting even better, the difference is very small.

Remarks and consequences regarding Step 4 and 5: the important thing here is that k is an integer, thus when you analyze your damage values, the large variation can be filtered out, because only 21 different numbers may
appear (or a bit more, see Step 6). I am pretty sure that this is the way, how the ‘floating damage’ calculations are implemented in the game, so if you have 17% floating damage, then k is an integer from the interval [-17,17],
and you can observe 35 different random damage values. If you understand this thing deeply, you will never ever calculate your average damage from your test fights by simply taking the mean value of the numbers.
The standard averaging method is very inaccurate and you would need a very large sample size to distinguish small differences reliably. However, finding these 21 values by using the formula requires less test fights and gives a very
accurate answer (+-1 absolute error due to some roundings/truncations).

Remarks and consequences regarding Step 6: very bad news for those who thought that ‘20% chance to ignore 250 * fate_lvl defense’ was very useful. It seems that the formula calculates the defense points ignored,
halves it, and simply increment the damage by this value. It means that this value doesn’t get mulitplied by the sylph_bonus, or resistance bonus.
I haven’t tested it with different skills, so I don’t know if it gets multiplied by any other factors, but my guess that it is not. For example Iris on atoll has 1000 defense, so I may ignore 1k defense points only, increasing my final
damage by 500 with 20% probability.

I encourage everyone to try and test my formula, I’d appreciate every feedback, even if you think this is rubbish, and has no connection to reality (if anyone needs, I can provide the spreadsheet where I documented the fights).
These battles very excusively done in PvE battles, I don’t know if same formula governs the damage in PvP battles, too, and of course it doesn’t cover the case when block, crit or other damage enhancing/reducing sources are present,
I’d be glad if anonye had some time to extend my results to these cases. Furthermore I hope the idea behind Step 4 and 5 makes a lot of tests easier in the future, since they were the crucial steps in my investigations to reduce the number of test battles.
Finally, I’d like to thank Holo from s13 (US-West) for his work (with Step 2) and his valuable ideas and suggestions that helped me to move on when I was seriously stuck.

Hhit (s13-US West) a.k.a Tihh (s9-EU)

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Topic: Wartune / [Announcement] Wartune Weekly Maintenance 7/7 @ 3:30 AM EDT

An unpleasant undocumented change: you cannot upgrade the evolved sylphs anymore! Serious change, should have been told in before, or fix it soon.

Edit: my 3-star purple Hercules was at half-way to 4 stars, that would be ridiculous to lose that amount of mahra.

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Topic: Wartune / S13 blessing wheel

I’m now lvl45, cleared cookies, cache, temporary files, everything… But I don’t even have access to the wheel, there is no button in my academy to spin the wheel. I submitted a ticket about this, just wanted to confirm that something is buggy with the wheel on our server.
(Char name: Hhit)

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Topic: Shadowland Online / [Event] Memorial Weekend Monuments

Character: Tihh_R
Server: Frost&Rio

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Topic: Shadowland Online / Bug threads

Originally posted by zqgame:

Test of Blades has repaired well.

No, it is still bugged. Army still goes down to 0% even when i lose almost no troops.

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Topic: Shadowland Online / Great battles of SLO

Last battle of T10 beaten on Rio. Used two Hades items, a shield and a necklace forted to +200. It was almost cheating.

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Topic: Shadowland Online / Bug threads

Originally posted by zqgame:
Originally posted by katihi:
Originally posted by GordonGecko:

Tower of Souls legions 3, 4, 5, and possibly higher are not running at all on Rothus right now.

Same thing is happening on server Rio. Players can join t3 legion, but the battle cannot be started, everyone is kicked out instead of starting. T1 and T2 legions are working well, only t3 has this problem (or maybe higher legions too, but we don’t have enough players to test it).

Sorry for replying you late here, could you tell us how long were you waiting from opening the zero hour room to starting it? And please provide us your server, thanks.

Problem has been partially solved, now we can successfully start the T3 legion at least once from 5-10 attempts, which still means that starting fails with a high chance.
Since we want to do 1-hour effective refresh runs with gold pumpkins activated, the time elapsed between opening the legion and starting it is usually less than 1 minute, maybe 30 seconds.

Server: Rio

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Topic: Shadowland Online / Bug threads

Originally posted by GordonGecko:

Tower of Souls legions 3, 4, 5, and possibly higher are not running at all on Rothus right now.

Same thing is happening on server Rio. Players can join t3 legion, but the battle cannot be started, everyone is kicked out instead of starting. T1 and T2 legions are working well, only t3 has this problem (or maybe higher legions too, but we don’t have enough players to test it).

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Topic: Shadowland Online / Bug threads

I tried to reincarnate my lvl100 paladin with diamonds, but strange bug appeared:
Screenshot here:
Actually i have bought some diamonds, but not 100000 dias… (I think I had 213 diamonds and 22cg before reincarnation).
After playing a legion battle, my diamonds are now displayed correctly (213/22), but some spirit stones (probably 200) were removed from my mall.

Server: Rio
Character: Tihh