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Suppose you solved the game. At any given time, you know the mixed strategy that is optimal. A% Move A, B% Move B, C% Move C, D% Move D, E% Switch, F% Intercept, G% Rest, (where A+B+C+D+E+F+G = 100) and you know the values of ABCDEFG such that no matter what your opponent's strategy is, if you play the exact same situation infinite amount of times, you will AT LEAST break even. But even then, although you will be at least tied overall, there is no guarantee that the result in that particular matchup, or game, will be favorable. Thus, luck, IMO, is being factored in every single turn, and like it or not, its going to affect the game.
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pidge, saying luck only comes into play involving the rng is redundant and not particuarly insightful. the rng essentially represents the intangible thing we refer to as 'luck'. the rng governs the vast majority of decisions a player can make, even some of the switch/intercept ones (if one is unfortunate enough to have flash powder for example). as a result, the rng, or 'luck' governs the majority of decisions - a player makes their choice of attack and then according to its relevant hit/proc % (usually less than 100%) the rng makes is calculation as to whether they hit. it doesnt matter how clever you may think your decision is or how much of an awesome player you are or how high your rating is, you have no control over the outcome at this point, and this point happens AFTER your genius-like strategy and tactics. this is why luck is the most important single factor
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ive never said i thought it has 'too much' luck. ive only stated that in my opinion luck plays a mroe significant role than any other factor.
as for comparitive role of luck in this vs poker (which i also play a fair bit) - luck plays a significantly smaller role - usually when a decent player loses a large amuont of chips, its because of a bad play. you will often lose a match in kongai purely as a result of making the right play but having the rng decide you miss/fail to proc etc.
of course it averges out over time. but why luck is not quantifiable is for a related reason to this - luck doesnt merely refer to the % of hits or procs or what have you, but the SITUATIONS in which those hits/procs/misses etc happen. it is MORE unlucky to have a miss happen in the last decisive hit between two cards on the last shreds of health than it is earlier on...
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To MathematicalPi: The "choice of moves" is not luck at all - this was my point to wring. "Misses, Dodges, Procs", and those annoying, unexpected crits, are luck-influenced. Decision-making, even in "50/50" situations, does not involve luck. Here, you get into risk/reward head games with the opponent. Luck, though, does not involve head games. Luck is neutral to risk/reward, and ONLY comes into play involving the RNG. Consistently winning rocks, paper, scissors, poker, kongai, etc... is less luck-based than you may think.
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Yeah but in the 80% or so strategy, a lot of it is Rock Paper Scissors. Is rock paper scissors luck or skill? You decide. :) So although Kongai isn't Luck-based, there is a significant amount of luck present in the game: Misses, Dodges, Procs, and most importantly, the choice of moves. You can force the opponent into lots of 50% 50% situations that are unfavorable, but in the end, its down to luck to choosing right.
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Something else that isn't listed in the text of moves. If you curse your opponent once. They will take the normal curse damage. Curse them afterwords and they will take another 20 damage. BUT if you switch after using curse the second time. Your opponent will take 40 damage that turn instead of 20.
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wring: False. Luck absolutely can be quantified, within certain ranges. I agree that Kongai is similar to Poker in several ways - there's a lot of reading people, a lot of probability, and you can still get screwed by luck despite making the best play. I'd say overall Kongai has less luck than Poker, though I'm not a big Poker player. The fact that you can get screwed by luck doesn't mean you usually will or that it won't tend to average out over time, though - nor does the fact that luck has a hand in almost everything mean that it is the ruling factor over everything; that is a faulty argument. I've had multiple games in a row where I got completely hosed by lucky criticals, 5% misses, etc.; it happens, but it certainly is not a dominating factor. |||| Also, to be perfectly honest, when I first played this game originally way back in August, I thought it had too much luck as well. Turns out I just sucked!
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sxv: Chakra Slash is how it is supposed to be, but the text on screen is wrong. |||| t3hplaty: MLM is actually considered one of the worst characters in higher level play. Duplicate characters, while interesting, would hurt the game overall imo. You can still use duplicate items. |||| Zweix: As Shandris said, Cow has been around for a long time. You must be confusing him with someone else, or perhaps an alt account of his.
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hahahaha keskya got lucky with all his procs (higashi interrupts, my 5 misses with 90% and 95%) and i still pwned him
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Any1Want2BuyACow, you must have played for 2 days in a row! i saw you on friday, you was in skill rank 2. And now 36?!?!
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There was this guy called Kyome who played by making you wait the max amount of time and just waiting around until I gave up.
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On the long run the amount of games you win because of luck is similar to the amount of games you lose because of luck. If this does not apply to you it's probably because you aren't very good at Kongai.
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The main part of this game is anticipation and knowing the game. You need to be able to anticipate your opponents moves, normally through intercepts. I've had crucial misses in games but have still won as I could second guess my opponent. The luck factor is around 20% of the game. Also, you need to know what the cards do and not choose random moves or intercept when you have low energy, when you should rest!
Also, how can you explain the top 25 if its just about luck?
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If you don't want luck then 100% luck, 100%strategy, and 100% experience, 100% good cards making it 400% of the game! Don't fight just beacaues of stupid luck and who knows that i lost few times in a row to say it 70% luck?
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[jctiru Jun. 06, 2009
If you don't want 70% just 69.99%luck and 10.01% strategy.(luck is the main in the game)]
Just because you lost a few times because of bad luck you do not have the right to say that its 70% luck.If it was true, there wouldn't be any top players who outplay majority of the field.In the long run the effect of luck evens out and the best players are on top of the game
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Argh I'm having a terrible losing streak. 10 in a row, I keep making stupid decisions.
People saying it's luck got it all wrong. It's about mind games, very rarely does the RNG matter.
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saying that luck ONLy comes into play with the rng is silly, and purposely ignorant. the rng essentially represents 'luck', and affects almost every single decision.
my poker analogy makes sense, as while once the cards are shuffled the order of cards cannot change (thoguh thats not entirely true, int eh case of a mistake the order can in fact change for one of the cards, but anyway...) - the exact order is an unknown quantity. my point is that at a certain point in holdem poker (specifically pre-river)- one might make the best decision in the history of decsion-making, but it is still subject to chance - just like almost all decisions in kongai. you might know every in and out, and know all the percentages of any given matchup, but no matter what you say or think or do, most of your decisions are at the mercy of the rng and therefore luck.
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To wringsteak (and dallen): though luck surely plays a part in Kongai, your poker analogy does not make sense. Kongai is not a game of determinism - each action, each decision, is not laid out in order before each match starts, as in the case of poker. In poker, once the deck is shuffled, you cannot change the order of the cards. In Kongai, each turn is another opportunity to make a new "call". Luck ONLY comes into play involving the random number generator, nothing more. Twinge's argument makes more sense.
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to illustrate: in poker, if you make the best call in the world pre-flop - i mean you picked the exact number and suit of the other player's cards, determined the exact % you are ahead when making the call, everything; it doesnt really matter, because despite having made some almost magically psychic reading, youve still gotta wait for the cards to come out.
the same happens almost every time you and your opponent hit whatever attack they think is the best option.
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@ twinge: some people are just lucky. any quantification of luck is mere speculation. in my opinion it counts for more than anything simply because it modifies almost every decision a player makes. certainly strategy/tactics/experience play an important role, but no matter how good ones decisions may be, those decisions are still subject to the roll of the dice.
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well im 5 rank points way from hard and u have like 6 accounts to help me with my ranking but i dont use them that much cause i dont need them