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@KillSmiley
I really need to work out a better way of doing this (Ah, for a Kongai forum...) because there's just not enough space to do a topic justice. But I think you make some interesting points, including the ones that I almost completely disagree with (Like Le Morte. But not for the obvious reasons). But I want to touch on Ambrosia, I think she's a card with potential once Blood Ritual is fixed. I like the proposed change not so much for the bleeding but for the "hits fleeing" which can lead to some interesting scenarios. I'm not completely sold on it since I think buffing is problematic - I might want to give her an attack like Ubuntu's where you deal light damage and that leaves a debuff that allows you to hit them on a switch. But I don't think she's there to slug it out with cards like Ashi or Helene, she's there to pound those cards who can.
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I've said it before and I'll probably say it again to keep hammering the point home but compare how Tafari and Higashi's innates change how you play the game. One of them is a good idead, working by influencing a player's action and, thus, ties into the core concept of the game's design in subtle but widereaching ways. The other is just dumb by limiting those options mechanically and is almost certain to lead to frustration from players who'll use it to grief others.
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@gwc123 re: Tafari
Tafari's innate is just dumb design, pure and simple. It prohibits certain actions, altering the basic gameplay in unfair and frustrating ways by forcing your opponent into bad actions. Putting your enemy behind the 8-ball isn't a bad thing and is, in fact, the cornerstone of the game. It's just that Tafari does it by fiat instead of punishing certain actions so as to make them disadvantageous for a player to perform. If instead of simply locking out a command he was a mega-Caltrops, doing something like 20~35 damage to characters that swapped out, he'd be much more fair and much more interesting to play against. Because rather than simply crossing off an entire branch of the decision tree, you'd have to re-evaluate your potential actions and their repercussions. What he needs to do is place the onus on the other player to make the right call rather than simply dictate what's to be done.
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@Bruce
You're going to make me blush. Keep it up.
No, in all seriousness, I'd rather it was the strength of my argument that was paid attention to rather than my name or my inimitable style. What I say matters - just like everyone else here - not because of who I am, what I've done, or what I'm going to do but because it has its own validity. Which arises not from some innate authority but from the self-created validity of its own internal logic. In other words, pay attention to me (and others) because I make sense (That you can agree or disagree with.) not because you're told to.
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One other thing - Onimaru and Ashi certainly needed the nerfs they got in recent updates. However, the real reason that everyone uses them isn't because they're broken, but because (along with Helene) they're the only real tank-type characters in the game right now. Not much you can do about that right now, but I'd suggest that the Pirate set have at least one tough character to provide some diversity.
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In line with Sausaletus's last post, here are some thoughts I have on specific cards. Ashi: Increase the energy cost on Signature Slice. Helene: I agree with Sausaletus - something needs to be done to distinguish her from Ashi. Zina: Increase the power of her innate (or change it outright). Ambrosia: I know you're working on this, but I'd suggest dropping Bleeding Ritual altogether and replacing it with a low-power ranged attack. She's really not built to go toe-to-toe with the sluggers. Le Morte: Lower the energy cost and damage of one or both of his attacks. You might also want to consider lowering the energy cost on Teleport. Constantine: Increase the cost of Hypnotic Stare or give it a chance to fail. Tafari: I actually have no problem with him. However, you might want to introduce a character in the next set who can disable innate abilities.
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I would like to see either a defense boost when resting or a defense option without the energy gain. I've had a couple of times where my only option was to rest but then I repeatedly get stunned and just get kicked to death. I think a defense option can give some greater range to a player that has little in the way of options remaining.
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and why when i make shadow wrath i dont hit all enemies ?the card that leave and the card that come dont get hit ... not fair
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ok ... why higashi ... with open palm paralize me for 2 turns ? i dont kame att and next turn im paralized again ... so he hit me 2 times and on 3-th he can paralize me again ...
and why is so high chanse ?
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2 additions that would be nice:
1) Ability to see record against each individual opponent (i.e. 4-2 against J. Doe and 2-3 against L. Doe)
2) Ability to create your own character (w/ perhaps a standard image for simplicity). Set number of points you can assign to defense and strength of attacks/costs plus ability to select from pre-set innates.
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i for one feel that tafari's innate ability is alright on its own because it adds another dimension to the playing field. and i feel that all games should allow the player to coordinate the game in such a way that it has some level of inevitability other wise we can all just play scissors, paper, stone rather then this fancy version.
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I want to mention to the Kongregate devs/staff and Sirlin if he's reading this that you should pay attention to what Sausaletus says. He knows his stuff, and what he says is worthy of consideration (note: you don't have to listen to him, but at least consider it). He’s at a similar level to Mario when it comes to feedback. How do I know this? I've read more of Saus’ posts and comments then you'd care to know, and he has all the traits of someone you should pay attention to. I’m no Kongai pro (see Mario for that), but I do try my best with what I do, and what I’m saying here is no exception.
- Bruce
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Okay, I've said a lot already so I'll stop straining against the character limit. But, here's what I think about the state of balance at present:
Problematic cards (Cards that need an overhaul):
-Rumicans (focus on field control, fix Eviscerate)
-Anex (focus on field control)
-Helene (needs to be more like Ashi or more unlike)
Cards that need a tweak (Cards that need one or two minor changes):
-Higashi (Tone down Chi Blast)
-Tafari (An innate that punishes actions but doesn't prohibit them)
-Zina (Better innate)
-Phoebe (More damage on Kick so more of a threat up close)
-Solomon (Needs to "get stronger as the battle goes longer" better)
-Ambrosia (Blood Ritual)
-Le Morte (Needs more threat or to be more efficient)
Cards that are just alright by me (Cards that require little to no attention at the moment):
-Amaya
-Onimaru
-Yoshiro
-Juju
-Popo
-Ubuntu (Maybe his buffs proc whether he hits or not. Maybe.)
-Andromeda
-Ashi
-Constantine (Maybe raise the cost of Hypnotic.)
-Vanessa
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Here's a minor issue that bothers me: Won/Loss records treat 3-card and 5-card as the same. There is a difference. In which case it should be reflected in the rankings. And, if not, then why have two separate formats? But, I'd think there's a big difference between entering a match with someone who's won 100 times in that format and one who's won a 100 in the other. And maybe even with someone who's split their time between them. Even something as simple as seeing the percentage of games that a player spends in 3-Card or 5-Card could be useful.
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@Hyung re: single-player
It's Ubuntu, the Elder you're talking about right? You can choose your deck in Single Player but it has to be 5-Card (At least, I can.). There's no 3-Card option. Which, yes, would be nice.
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@the Quaker Oats spokesman re: depth
It is indeed decided on the basis of a few cards. That's good because it narrows the potential decisions faced by newcomers. Instead of presenting them with hundreds and thousands of options, varying by slight degrees, they can select from a few clear ones. Some of which are bound to appeal to them.
This is a problem only if some of those cards are strictly better than others in which case those options resolve down to two - playing what works and playing with handicap. And how many beginners are going to have the understanding of what works to know that? This is why game balance is so important. not every card can be equal in all situations but the ideal is to flatten out the imbalances so that, overall, no one card rises too far above the pack and there's an actual dilemma over which ones are best. If the answer is "Depends on your playstyle" then the designers are doing the right thing. In a tasty way of doing it.
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Of course, the discussion of starter cards is moot if earning and unlocking cards is easier than it is now. If you only get one designated card a week then Starter cards are crucially important. If you can unlock one after every match then who cares?
I suspect the final rate is going to lay somewhere in-between to the point where it's going to be a slight concern to a starting player and rapidly decrease if they keep playing. So the worry is the outright rank beginners who come into the system clueless. As the game goes on longer the average player skill will only rise and that makes poor initial choices that much more of a handicap.
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@Einar re: starter cards
I should have said, but didn't because of the dread max character limit, that match-play wouldn't be available until you'd created a deck. Hence, players with enough cards could set up a deck and jump into Multiplayer. But those who don't would be assured of having some familiarity with the game and its mechanics before making an irreversible choice.
Starter cards are for those people who don't have cards. People who have enough cards to fill out a deck or three can do whatever. What concerns me are people who have no cards, have no what they do, but want to try the game out. Having a bunch of such noobs running around the actual game and clogging up the matching system is frustrating for them and isn't fun for everyone else. Unless you think stomping on noobs to increase your rating is a great time, of course. If you don't, then channeling the uninitiated towards some practice sessions with the AI is for the best.
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With regards to picking solid cards .... we'll simply need to point out which ones to pick and make good suggestions in the comments section for the newbs. We can leave suggestions for cards to pick and why and then let people make choices based on that. Doing that will also provide some insight on what items/chars people deem most valuable and that info can be used towards balancing the game further.
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okay here's something else to take into consideration. When you get poisoned by an attach like Poison dart, it should wait to apply the poison damage until after you make your own attack. Poison = slow acting damage!
-I had 23 hp left and I was attacked by poison dart for 21 damage, than because I was poisoned, I got another 5 damage, killing me before I was able to make an attack that probably would have forced a draw. Instead, I lose. If the character is not killed by the main attack, they should be able to attack before they die.
-After the pioson takes place, it inflicts damage after the player attack, as it should.
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Hmm, it looks like when Utulu (sp?) hits enemy with Staff and gains additional damage, it does not display on his attacks. I've also noticed something funky with resistance not being calculated correctly in reducing damage but I cannot replicate the issue. Also, you cannot choose your deck in single player. Ok that's it for now. Thanks!
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gingerben: They updated all the healing items in the last release but haven't changed the cards yet.
http://www.sirlin.net/kongai-beta
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Yoshiros' Innate does not show up properly. Herbal Remedy card didn't go away. Mouse-over revealed and it stay. So I couldn't see any details of anything else after.
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@Salusetus
That's way too complicated. Just let people choose their starter cards at any time would be fine. If they start off with zarro cards, they can still play Random - All Cards matches until they get a feel for what works and what doesn't.
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After Message saying Deck name has to be unique, the background to the message is pure graphics. If you misclick, you may accidentally remove one of your cards. Not a big deal, but an annoyance. Also, when choosing card, then items. You can not turn the chosen cards over to see their abilities. I had to unchoose them, then flip them.
3 Card Single Player?
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@Zakid
Same here. We'll have a chance to re-pick when the game is released but it's still a pretty lousy mechanism and I'm more worried about the people who'll be picking for the first time at release. A better way of going about it might be to have the Single Player mode open at the start and restrict new players to random play there until they can win a few matches. Say, the first three times they beat the computer they get a starter card to unlock. From there, they can do whatever. But, as it is, players are locked into choices before they get a real chance to play the game. That's only going to lead to a lot of complaining and frustration.
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I realized that it is actually a stupid idea to choose three starter cards at the beginning, when you probably do not have the foggiest idea which one is better and which one is worse. My choice was rather haphazard than considered and now, after couple of games I can say that it was really bad.
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@ galcohen:
the game seems to be designed with multiplayer in mind, and i forgive the game for not having such good AI, because it excels at multiplayer
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Awall1990: That's the point. The core gameplay element in Kongai is predicting your opponent's actions. It's a game of psychology and deceit, and if you don't like that then this probably isn't your game.
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yeah, there's still a few cards that are overpowered, even though most of them are equal. I'm pretty sure everyone knows my opinion on tafari and close range character nerfs.
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There is a fundamental lack of strategic implementation on the part of the player. Who at a certain level must simply guess which move his opponent will not counter. The result is a back and forth game of "If I want to do this, my opponent wants to counter it, so I will counter my opponent's counter, but IF he knows that I know what that he is doing that, I should change my plan."
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At first I had slightly disappointed with the game. It was good, but I was expecting something incredible, since Kongai was advertised so much. However, the more I play, the more I like the game. It really requires great strategy and forces you to try to predict the opponent's next game. Also you made a great job balancing the characters. At first I was thinking that some characters, such as for instance Cornelius are more powerful than the others, but once I got better I realized that all the characters are practically equal and the secret of building a powerful deck is picking characters that work well together. Certainly the best CCG I have ever played and probably the best game on Kongregate:)
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Little thing that should needs putting in: On Deck Builder mode once you place a card in your deck it can't be flipped to look at stats and attacks which should be changed,
and @ dadalone: If it doesn't let you change range your energy is probably too low.
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ive noticed something critical that should be added.... a function for replays to be viewed and also observer functions :)
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Very well done. The graphics and battle system are more than satisfactory. But there's no way to tell what takes presedence when you are attacked and heal yourself in the same turn. I also suggest that there be an optional music selection in battles. Since the battles can be short, I understand why there could be none.
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Good game, it needs time to study all the cards, anyway it's too slow, can't understand why in the maneuver phase I just can pass, sounds useless.
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I found something that is really bugging me, when your enemies card is in battle and your looking at his attacks, you cant tell what kind of attacks they are (ie. physical, light or dark...) unless i just cant see it
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aenh: cornelius is balanced as it is , because juju IS a good character , but speed is surely his weakness... higher cost means taht his weakness will be lesser, making he more overpowered mthan he actually is.