Grotesque was never a problem before the change because if it went rampant it would end up killing things and then hitting the hero once — and during that turn, being unable to heal, would be vulnerable. It was actually a very nice built-in balance. We made the skill worse by changing it, and the proof is that things which worked well before now work badly. Just ask any player in the top 25 what they think about Grotesque now. Using base damage is more complicated and less intuitive. And it makes fewer design options. And it makes Grotesque a boring card overall. The whole fun of it is that under the right circumstances it can become powerful. We just need those circumstances to have a reasonable footprint and not “automatic victory” like they do now. Literally, against the top decks in the game right now, one powered Grotesque in the first slot is 100% guaranteed victory because you can’t create enough damage in 1 turn to kill it no matter what cards you’re using. I totally understand the confusion about Drain not working on heroes, because the card text implies it might. But heroes in this game are different from units, and there are many cases of skills that don’t work on them the same way. You can’t Zap a hero, or Assassinate a hero, or Weaken a hero, etc. This is all for good reason as it balances the skills. What we should have done is edit the card text for Drain rather than change the skill. We have not improved any card by doing so, but have caused some problems instead. The nice thing about this kind of game is we can always try things many ways and see what works best!

> Grotesque was never a problem before the change What a pity that many of us can’t confirm this. Before the change i never saw Grotesque :)

Not sure if this works for other cards, but when the Storm Mage is paralyzed, it can still cast its “Zap 2” ability. I don’t think that a card should be able to use their “Zap” abilities while paralyzed. Maybe change it so that they can’t Zap when paralyzed?

> *Originally posted by **[Sir\_Valimont](/forums/32949/topics/621433?page=7#posts-10599655):*** > > Literally, against the top decks in the game right now, one powered Grotesque in the first slot is 100% guaranteed victory because you can’t create enough damage in 1 turn to kill it no matter what cards you’re using. I’m not sure what you’re talking about here, eliana can sometimes kill a grotesque by herself with no other cards. A legendary crusher can solo kill a grotesque. Just about any combination of cards and heroes can kill a grotesque, they are far from invincible. Your drain nova dragon is much harder to kill since it gains life even if it does no damage.

eh think ill sit on the sidelines for a while… i think this game is getting away from being a ‘deck building’ game, and is sliding more into a game where your hero does more damage than every card on the board that isn’t buffed by 3 champions. there is way too much buffing and emphasis on the heroes atm. and when i asked for sidalis to be nerfed from doing 9 damage a turn potentially and usually did at least 8, i didn’t mean for you to buff every other hero almost that does damage per turn, to do 6-8 dmg per turn. there isn’t a card that can do 6-8 damage per turn unless it is considerably buffed, (outside of a handful of attack heavy cards like crusher and just a single buff for example) and i just think it’s slipping from a emphasis of deck building, to, i wipe off 1-3 cards off the board with just my hero, every turn, and win. and stop the grot complaining. there are heroes who can do 4-8 dmg a turn on it(which is more than HALF of its stock hp to completely killing it)… without something else hitting it on the board, just… stop it. and… lol @ making dragons hit heroes… :sarcasm: cuuuzzz they already wern’t crazy hard to deal with before that fact at alllll…. :end sarcasm:

**Sir\_Valimont:** “The nice thing about this kind of game is we can always try things many ways and see what works best!” **I totally agree with you there** , but if they change it back i can easily make screenshots about the possible combinations when it doesn’t matter that Grotesque can’t heal himself against heroes. Cough….. Myrrhine cough…. And there is a lot of 2 cards combo in game like that… The sad truth is = i don’t want to give ideas for the players, so i don’t write them down here. But that doesn’t change the fact that there are 2 cards combos in the game what wins you the entire matchup and thats just wrong… 2 cards should never have the chance to wipe out everything with zero chance of a comeback. Seriously just look at what i said about Alastair, how you make a comeback if Alastair gave Armour to everyone? And thats “just” 5 turns… All the multi hit cards are f\*ck\*d on that point so there is no coming back just the Spell wipe or maybe one of those insane Dragons… Khar could be the solution, but Alastair is just a card, not a hero, i can’t see that he is or isn’t in a deck… **Innuendos:** I say almost all of the heroes are possible to handle, you just need the right deck against them. And i agree with you about Dragons… Making that expansion more and more powerful is not good for the players. **Edit:** In fact if Alastair is an Armourer, he should only give 1 defense against physical attacks, but not against Mages, because Mages can’t increase their damage output, but they are way too easy like that to shut down completely.

> **Edit:** In fact if Alastair is an Armourer, he should only give 1 defense against physical attacks, but not against Mages, because Mages can’t increase their damage output, but they are way too easy like that to shut down completely. Btw, very important remark. It’s a great disadvantage to mages, that their spell’s damage output can’t be increased. Something like “frenzy” / “pierce” for mages is needed.

**Fracture:** Deals more damage depending on the target’s magic defense. But if you want it to be even more balanced then Fracture 1 for + 1 DMG and Fracture 2 for + 2 DMG against any kinda Magic Shield(including the current Armoured status, but i hope thats going to be changed to only physical). We can still get a card in another expansion what gives Magic Armour…

Red dragon still doesn’t seem to hit hero so I’m not sure if that was an oversight, bug, or intentional

I think SlowTime (legendary spell) is very underpowered in theory and practice. SlowTime adds 1 timer to every enemy unit at stage. That’s all it does. Note that by drawing slowtime you essentially are adding 1 timer to all YOUR units coming after slowtime. so basically, by drawing and playing slowtime, you add 1 timer to the cards on both parties. Net benefit is 0. Actually it’s worse than 0, if your opponent has few cards at stage, slowtime is basically a waste of your draw. The only situation where slowtime can be useful is when used with the hero that summons elementals every other turn. Your net benefit would be 1/2 elemental worthy. With the above analysis, I think the appropriate rarity for slowtime would be rare or uncommon. To qualify for a legendary, it has to at least have one more strong ability in addition to +1 timer.

Alastair is too OP. Grant 1 **physical** armor and he should be fine. Elder shorloth is also too OP. Terrify + drain nova + 9 hp, he is harder to kill than Grotesque.

Since this thread is getting a bit one sided on the crying/nerfing side I would like to put some of the less often mentioned counterarguments up to discussion. 1. Grotesque: It is the only real balancing towards Myrrs crazy OPness as an offensive deck [({which is a good thing, and almost core principle so far, of making this game fun: unusable for defense but giving everybody a chance to win some fights vs otherwise stronger competitive arena decks and gives us all that tickling feeling of outsmarting everone with our huge deck building capabilities ;) })]. Once grotesque survived its way to the left side of the board myrr is usually done, but as long as it grows it still dies unnoticed in all so many games, you just tend to remember the ones where it actually grows, in an out of proportion kind of way. Apart from that myrr can almost handle and comeback from everything. In regular fast paced high damage fights grotesque is still very often killed in one single strike from hero dmg + creature dmg; with otuk buff even more so. IF you still want a nerf to it by now I think it could be an **“unbuffable”-stat** because once armored it really effectivly ends 95% of games =\> Strong, only OP into Myrr for arguably justyfiable balancing reasons. 2. Shorloth: The second contender to Myrrbalancer. Also almost unkillable for Myrr but despite grotesque you often can just accept that little extra tickling from the first spot and still decide the game on the right side. In regular fast paced high damage fights with only a few creature on board he sure is strong but with only ~1-3 lechable targets he is very killable within 2 rounds. =\> Strong, not OP 3. Alastair: although he is sure “game changing” he is not game winning. He still is only a 1/7 who will stay on board quite a while usually (unless facing crusher/hawk which happens a lot in upper arena ranks) and giving a rare and hurtful dmg free spot opposite of him. He is not stackable in about any kind of deck. I dont think i saw a serious deck playing 2 alistairs. If those ever come out close to each other it pretty sure loses you the game. So effectivly it s a once a game buff that sometimes comes early mitigating initial damage and helping to get board controll fast for a save win (feels and is very OP) or comes out late doing very little and leaving you behind with a dmg gap in your strategy. =\> OP but not exploitable/stackable 4. Diversity and the fun of getting new cards demands some borderline OP cards, and as long as anyone can get them…

Bloodbath needs a nerf pretty bad

Why does bloodbath need a nerf? While it can be game-winning, it can also be activated and give almost no effect at all

> *Originally posted by **[Kur0hige](/forums/32949/topics/621433?page=7#posts-10607220):*** > > Bloodbath needs a nerf pretty bad I played with Bloodbath in the past 2 days and it can be a game winning card, but: - 1. So many times i can’t even draw Bloodbath (and i use 2 in my deck atm). - 2. So many times i draw Bloodbath, but the whole game ends before i can play it… 7 turns is a lot of turns… - 3. So many times i draw the card, i can use it and then everything on my side just dies in the next turn. Basically if you don’t have some super strong 2 cards combo 10 times in your deck or a full deck of Legendary cards everything is random and your win rate is exactly 50% doesn’t matter what you do. The difference between players and how good is their deck is only possible to see with your Arena ranking, but only the top 10~50 can have more than 50% of winning rate, what actually makes them be able to farm 2x more gold under the same amount of time, not counting how fast is their deck. Just look at how much Gold the top 3 did farm and i bet they doesn’t even play that much for Gold, because they don’t really need it. So even if you can find a strong card like Bloodbath(for you atm) it doesn’t really matter, you lose against it and because your Crowns gos down, you win the next match or you win against the next possible targets in the Arena after refresh.

I think the buff to Otuk was too much, he’s still beatable, but with his high hps he no real weakness anymore, too much focused damage on the hard hitters, combined with so many hps and enough damage still to take out any sort of “swarm rush” that comes in one or two at a time. Basically you take what people used to be using as “Clom stall” decks and put him in now instead and it’s much much stronger – and people before were complaining Clom was too strong after he was buffed…

> *Originally posted by **[Ben\_RandomNumber](/forums/32949/topics/621433?page=7#posts-10609945):*** > > I think the buff to Otuk was too much, he’s still beatable, but with his high hps he no real weakness anymore, too much focused damage on the hard hitters, combined with so many hps and enough damage still to take out any sort of “swarm rush” that comes in one or two at a time. > > Basically you take what people used to be using as “Clom stall” decks and put him in now instead and it’s much much stronger – and people before were complaining Clom was too strong after he was buffed… I told you this change would suck. For different reasons then it axtually turbed out as the suggestion was implemented as it was stated. But atill same result. Banjo is smilin now that his otuk is wiping the floor with people. Are people crying over blood bath? Half of the time you pull it or it activates your acreaming that it was wasted or made it so a caed didnt come oiut inatead to savw your hp. Stop it… Its almoat as dumb of a statement as grotesque being op. Wanna know the rral problems? Legendaries. Plain and simple. It is and will ruin this game. Esp after another xpac or two of them and the top 100 is full of hitarotaco whoever the hell it is woth 30 or 40card decks of only legendaries.

Ugh phone kong forum auto corrects its annoying. Wasnt implemented as it was suggested… Sigh. Typossssssss

> I think the buff to Otuk was too much, he’s still beatable, but with his high hps he no real weakness anymore May be it’s just a matter of luck, but it seems that Amariel’s rush deck with card “Singularity” has vary good chances to beat Otuk. It’s probably the last his weakness.

> *Originally posted by **[asyataka](/forums/32949/topics/621433?page=7#posts-10610807):*** > > I think the buff to Otuk was too much, he’s still beatable, but with his high hps he no real weakness anymore > > May be it’s just a matter of luck, but it seems that Amariel’s rush deck with card “Singularity” has vary good chances to beat Otuk. > It’s probably the last his weakness. if you are willing to spend enough time for 60-120 turns to win one battle.. there are many better ways to use singularity..

> *Originally posted by **[Lostmymoney37](/forums/32949/topics/621433?page=7#posts-10603452):*** > > I think SlowTime (legendary spell) is very underpowered in theory and practice. > > SlowTime adds 1 timer to every enemy unit at stage. That’s all it does. Note that by drawing slowtime you essentially are adding 1 timer to all YOUR units coming after slowtime. so basically, by drawing and playing slowtime, you add 1 timer to the cards on both parties. Net benefit is 0. > > Actually it’s worse than 0, if your opponent has few cards at stage, slowtime is basically a waste of your draw. > > The only situation where slowtime can be useful is when used with the hero that summons elementals every other turn. Your net benefit would be 1/2 elemental worthy. > > With the above analysis, I think the appropriate rarity for slowtime would be rare or uncommon. To qualify for a legendary, it has to at least have one more strong ability in addition to +1 timer. try checking top battles and see how many top players die from epic slow spell. and that’s from decks which are not designed to maximize the potential/power/usefulness of slow spell…

> if you are willing to spend enough time for 60-120 turns to win one battle.. there are many better ways to use singularity.. No, thanks … 40-60 turns with higher than 50% winrate is enough for now.

> *Originally posted by **[Z\_\_Y](/forums/32949/topics/621433?page=7#posts-10610930):*** > > *Originally posted by **[Lostmymoney37](/forums/32949/topics/621433?page=7#posts-10603452):*** > > > > I think SlowTime (legendary spell) is very underpowered in theory and practice. > > > > SlowTime adds 1 timer to every enemy unit at stage. That’s all it does. Note that by drawing slowtime you essentially are adding 1 timer to all YOUR units coming after slowtime. so basically, by drawing and playing slowtime, you add 1 timer to the cards on both parties. Net benefit is 0. > > > > Actually it’s worse than 0, if your opponent has few cards at stage, slowtime is basically a waste of your draw. > > > > The only situation where slowtime can be useful is when used with the hero that summons elementals every other turn. Your net benefit would be 1/2 elemental worthy. > > > > With the above analysis, I think the appropriate rarity for slowtime would be rare or uncommon. To qualify for a legendary, it has to at least have one more strong ability in addition to +1 timer. > > try checking top battles and see how many top players die from epic slow spell. and that’s from decks which are not designed to maximize the potential/power/usefulness of slow spell… A couple of fights doesn’t prove anything, not to mention it’s cnofirmation biased. If A is at advantage already (overwhelming opponent) , a slow spell expedite his winning; if A is at disadvantage (say, overwhelmed by opponent), a slow spell simply makes it worse. Like I said, slow spell (Legendary) is a net benefit of 0 (or worse). I encourage you to read my analysis again.

> *Originally posted by **[Ben\_RandomNumber](/forums/32949/topics/621433?page=7#posts-10609945):*** > > I think the buff to Otuk was too much, he’s still beatable, but with his high hps he no real weakness anymore, too much focused damage on the hard hitters, combined with so many hps and enough damage still to take out any sort of “swarm rush” that comes in one or two at a time. > > Basically you take what people used to be using as “Clom stall” decks and put him in now instead and it’s much much stronger – and people before were complaining Clom was too strong after he was buffed… First of all, I sort-of ‘apologize’ for making the original suggestion for an Otuk buff. :( I think the main ‘problem’ with Otuk is that he has too much HP, and that works very very well with his new, improved, damage. If you try to deal huge damage to it, it deals 5-6 damage back at you – ouch. If you try to outstall it with slow damage, it laughs while its 59HP absorbs the petty damage you’re trying to deal. My suggestion would be to either lower his HP to around 36HP, or revert Otuk to how it originally was. I know, 36HP is a drastic reduction of his HP, but note that most heroes have around that level of health.

> *Originally posted by **[XAct](/forums/32949/topics/621433?page=8#posts-10611258):*** > > *Originally posted by **[Ben\_RandomNumber](/forums/32949/topics/621433?page=7#posts-10609945):*** > > > > I think the buff to Otuk was too much, he’s still beatable, but with his high hps he no real weakness anymore, too much focused damage on the hard hitters, combined with so many hps and enough damage still to take out any sort of “swarm rush” that comes in one or two at a time. > > > > Basically you take what people used to be using as “Clom stall” decks and put him in now instead and it’s much much stronger – and people before were complaining Clom was too strong after he was buffed… > > First of all, I sort-of ‘apologize’ for making the original suggestion for an Otuk buff. :( > > I think the main ‘problem’ with Otuk is that he has too much HP, and that works very very well with his new, improved, damage. If you try to deal huge damage to it, it deals 5-6 damage back at you – ouch. If you try to outstall it with slow damage, it laughs while its 59HP absorbs the petty damage you’re trying to deal. > > My suggestion would be to either lower his HP to around 36HP, or revert Otuk to how it originally was. I know, 36HP is a drastic reduction of his HP, but note that most heroes have around that level of health. if i had to choose between reverting last change or lower his HP to 36… i’d say revert the change