MMR movement is still way too large and doesn't take into account the scoring margin. We lost our first match by 644 points and dropped from #28 to #64 on MMR. This just means that the next match is non-competitive (we're tracking to win by 10K+).

The Rumble Banner *still* displays the opponent's Points Ranking despite labeling it "MMR". This still creates a lot of confusion among players why such apparent mismatches are created. I see that confusion both in the forums and in my own guild. If the banner truly showed MMR for both guilds, then it would be apparent that all matchups are close, at least according to MMR. This should be an easy fix and at least one software update has been released since a bunch of us pointed this out when the new rumble format was released. Do the developers plan to fix this issue or not? If not, I'd sure like to hear a good reason for why the banner is being left in this confusing state.

> _Originally posted by **[crimsontiger](/forums/726779/topics/1650017?page=1#12678684):**_ > The Rumble Banner *still* displays the opponent's Points Ranking despite labeling it "MMR". This still creates a lot of confusion among players why such apparent mismatches are created. I see that confusion both in the forums and in my own guild. If the banner truly showed MMR for both guilds, then it would be apparent that all matchups are close, at least according to MMR. > > This should be an easy fix and at least one software update has been released since a bunch of us pointed this out when the new rumble format was released. Do the developers plan to fix this issue or not? If not, I'd sure like to hear a good reason for why the banner is being left in this confusing state. You beat me to it. Please fix this, it is *still* showing the opposing guild's points rank on the main rumble screen instead of their MMR score as it is labeled.

We seem to either get destroyed, or have a very easy match. Perhaps the jumps in rank are too large.

> *Originally posted by **[Mounta1neer](/forums/727068/topics/1650017?page=1#12680376)**:* > We seem to either get destroyed, or have a very easy match. Perhaps the jumps in rank are too large. Yup. The MMR movements are way too large. Not sure why they don't tweak it to take into account the margin of victory/loss. We just lost by 847 points and dropped from #22 to #54. A 32-position movement seems is too much for such a narrow loss.

WereHouse was ranked 22 and beat Hyrule Knights. For that win, we now dropped to 24. Another win and we're out of the top 25! Something isnt right with that...

> *Originally posted by **[helpmeout2](/forums/727068/topics/1650017?page=1#12683766)**:* > WereHouse was ranked 22 and beat Hyrule Knights. For that win, we now dropped to 24. Another win and we're out of the top 25! Something isnt right with that... It's because of your guild's loss in round 8. That loss caused a big drop on the MMR ladder, which meant that even a win in round 9 couldn't maintain your #22 point ranking.Since #21-#24 are so closely bunched together (92511 to 92450), if you win again, you should move up 1 or 2 spots. Here are a couple of threads on how MMR works. http://www.kongregate.com/forums/727066-general/topics/1584716-rumble-format-explained-malice32 http://www.kongregate.com/forums/727066-general/topics/1585372-rumble-results-did-you-finish-at-a-reasonable-rank?page=2#posts-12530154

I knew this would happen after few rumbles. Guilds have reached the tier where they belong and now the match page shows WLWLWLWL. I don't know if it is a good or bad thing, easy legendary card and some stones for it, but feels pretty boring. You already know your final ranking before rumble even starts. Surely you can get lucky draws and raise 10+ rankings, but if your guild doesn't get significally stronger before next one, you will probably drop back to that earlier rank. (I'm talking about places between 50 - 100, can't say about other tiers)

> *Originally posted by **[lilikki](/forums/727068/topics/1650017?page=1#12683949)**:* > > You already know your final ranking before rumble even starts. Surely you can get lucky draws and raise 10+ rankings, but if your guild doesn't get significally stronger before next one, you will probably drop back to that earlier rank. (I'm talking about places between 50 - 100, can't say about other tiers) IMO, the reason for this is because MMR ladder movements are too large. You're either battling a guild that's too strong or too weak. If the MMR movements were reduced, you'll more likely be fighting guilds closer to your strength. That makes for more competitive battles so the results might not be as pre-ordained.

> *Originally posted by **[werenarc](/forums/727068/topics/1650017?page=1#12683780)**:* > > *Originally posted by **[helpmeout2](/forums/727068/topics/1650017?page=1#12683766)**:* > > WereHouse was ranked 22 and beat Hyrule Knights. For that win, we now dropped to 24. Another win and we're out of the top 25! Something isnt right with that... > > It's because of your guild's loss in round 8. That loss caused a big drop on the MMR ladder, which meant that even a win in round 9 couldn't maintain your #22 point ranking.Since #21-#24 are so closely bunched together (92511 to 92450), if you win again, you should move up 1 or 2 spots. So it looks like you guys won and moved up 2 spots to #22 like I predicted. :P

> *Originally posted by **[lilikki](/forums/727068/topics/1650017?page=1#12683949)**:* > I knew this would happen after few rumbles. Guilds have reached the tier where they belong and now the match page shows WLWLWLWL. I don't know if it is a good or bad thing, easy legendary card and some stones for it, but feels pretty boring. This, but my guild's experience was pretty wonky this time around. We won 6 and lost 4, but dropped about six or seven ranks overall. Our losses were by relatively small margins, and our wins (barring the first) were by relatively large margins. But those wins didn't count for much because the guilds we faced weren't near our strength. About half the time, matchmaking didn't give us an option to fight guilds whose strength matched ours, and this is my main feedback. Consequently, our 7th-9th matches all resulted in decreases in overall rank, even though they were two wins with one loss in between. It would seem our first (and close) win set us up on a path to failure. The guild we defeated in that round actually finished a few ranks above us.

It is all up to the players to decide if they want to make a run at a higher place. There are many guilds with strong players that for what ever reason stick with players below their level. If some of the stronger players moved to stronger guilds then their would be more competition. As a whole guilds can be stuck at a certain spot. You are only as strong as your weakest players and if there is unwillingness to remove players that can't compete at certain levels then guilds will never improve.

> *Originally posted by **[NotCasey](/forums/727068/topics/1650017?page=1#12685310)**:* > > This, but my guild's experience was pretty wonky this time around. We won 6 and lost 4, but dropped about six or seven ranks overall. Our losses were by relatively small margins, and our wins (barring the first) were by relatively large margins. But those wins didn't count for much because the guilds we faced weren't near our strength. About half the time, matchmaking didn't give us an option to fight guilds whose strength matched ours, and this is my main feedback. > > Consequently, our 7th-9th matches all resulted in decreases in overall rank, even though they were two wins with one loss in between. It would seem our first (and close) win set us up on a path to failure. The guild we defeated in that round actually finished a few ranks above us. MMR appears to really reward winning streaks and punish losing streaks. How did your 6-4 record go? Was it something like WLWWLWLLWW? In the Rumble where we went WLWWLWWWLL, we ended moving up from #45 to #28.

3 seems to be the magic number when really improving. 2 wins in a row will move you up a little bit but 3 is where you move a lot unless you are already ranked high. The biggest move without a winning streak happens in match #1

edit: double posted, oops

> *Originally posted by **[werenarc](/forums/727068/topics/1650017?page=1#12685828)**:* > > MMR appears to really reward winning streaks and punish losing streaks. How did your 6-4 record go? Was it something like WLWWLWLLWW? > > In the Rumble where we went WLWWLWWWLL, we ended moving up from #45 to #28. It went WLWLWLWLWW. But with the exception of our first win, all our wins were by large margins against guilds that weren't really our level, so I imagine that our overall score increase per win was less than a lot of other guilds that got better matches. Our losses were against guilds closer to our level, so I also imagine that our overall score decrease per win was more than other guilds that might've been matched and lost against guilds much higher than their level.

> *Originally posted by **[NotCasey](/forums/727068/topics/1650017?page=1#12687283)**:* > > It went WLWLWLWLWW. But with the exception of our first win, all our wins were by large margins against guilds that weren't really our level, so I imagine that our overall score increase per win was less than a lot of other guilds that got better matches. Our losses were against guilds closer to our level, so I also imagine that our overall score decrease per win was more than other guilds that might've been matched and lost against guilds much higher than their level. Thanks for the info. With SB on the blink this past Rumble, I wasn't able to get info on the first 7 matches for your guild. But yeah, a pattern of WLWLWLWL will actually push a guild's point ranking down, which is why you guys went from #19 to #31. I've logged the MMR movement for my guild and each loss causes anywhere from a -3500 to -4500 drop in MMR (it varies based on the MMR ladder position) while a win is only worth a 1000-2000 rise in MMR. So at a minimum, you need to have a 2-match win streak for each loss to maintain roughly the same position. But it's best to win at least 3 in a row if you want to move sigificantly upwards.

> *Originally posted by **[werenarc](/forums/727068/topics/1650017?page=1#12687306)**:* > > Thanks for the info. With SB on the blink this past Rumble, I wasn't able to get info on the first 7 matches for your guild. > > But yeah, a pattern of WLWLWLWL will actually push a guild's point ranking down, which is why you guys went from #19 to #31. > > I've logged the MMR movement for my guild and each loss causes anywhere from a -3500 to -4500 drop in MMR (it varies based on the MMR ladder position) while a win is only worth a 1000-2000 rise in MMR. So at a minimum, you need to have a 2-match win streak for each loss to maintain roughly the same position. But it's best to win at least 3 in a row if you want to move sigificantly upwards. I haven't done any analyses on scores based on win/loss margins, win/loss patterns, or MMR differentials (although I'd like to eventually when I have time), but I really can't imagine that it mainly boils down to win/loss patterns. I imagine that score margins and MMR differentials are the largest factors; I bet the WLWLWLWLWL pattern can have a widely varying impact on score depending on matchmaking (unless this pattern directly causes such matchmaking as I've described). Also, I'm eager to look further into the inner workings of MMR. It only displays MMR *rankings* in-game, so I'm curious as to how you determined drops/rises in this under-the-hood value (unless I'm misunderstanding). If you have any data that encompasses score changes, win/loss margins, and MMR differentials, I'd appreciate it going forward. Thank you for your insight on this matter, I appreciate it.

> *Originally posted by **[NotCasey](/forums/727068/topics/1650017?page=1#12687462)**:* > > If you have any data that encompasses score changes, win/loss margins, and MMR differentials, I'd appreciate it going forward. Sent you a PM.

> _Originally posted by **[NotCasey](/forums/726779/topics/1650017?page=1#12687462):**_ > > *Originally posted by **[werenarc](/forums/727068/topics/1650017?page=1#12687306)**:* > > > > Thanks for the info. With SB on the blink this past Rumble, I wasn't able to get info on the first 7 matches for your guild. > > > > But yeah, a pattern of WLWLWLWL will actually push a guild's point ranking down, which is why you guys went from #19 to #31. > > > > I've logged the MMR movement for my guild and each loss causes anywhere from a -3500 to -4500 drop in MMR (it varies based on the MMR ladder position) while a win is only worth a 1000-2000 rise in MMR. So at a minimum, you need to have a 2-match win streak for each loss to maintain roughly the same position. But it's best to win at least 3 in a row if you want to move sigificantly upwards. > > I haven't done any analyses on scores based on win/loss margins, win/loss patterns, or MMR differentials (although I'd like to eventually when I have time), but I really can't imagine that it mainly boils down to win/loss patterns. I imagine that score margins and MMR differentials are the largest factors; I bet the WLWLWLWLWL pattern can have a widely varying impact on score depending on matchmaking (unless this pattern directly causes such matchmaking as I've described). > > Also, I'm eager to look further into the inner workings of MMR. It only displays MMR *rankings* in-game, so I'm curious as to how you determined drops/rises in this under-the-hood value (unless I'm misunderstanding). If you have any data that encompasses score changes, win/loss margins, and MMR differentials, I'd appreciate it going forward. Thank you for your insight on this matter, I appreciate it. Need 2 wins to cover a loss? Sounds like arena and siege