|
|
metadata
Question: do you have a certain % where you do, or do not burn in the main game?
I’ve got 55% stapler increase available if I burn. But I’m 39% of the way to the next level.
I’m asking, cause it’s taken probably 2 months or more to get this 39%. It seems to be in the margin where I don’t burn.
I’m thinking the turning point is if you would have 100% stapler available with a burn. And have less than 50% of the next level, that you would burn? I should have the math to support this, but my brain hurts right now. LOL.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
> *Originally posted by **[mdt1105](/forums/889887/topics/1930175?page=1#13551719)**:*
> Question: do you have a certain % where you do, or do not burn in the main game?
> I’ve got 55% stapler increase available if I burn. But I’m 39% of the way to the next level.
39% level complete? I'd probably burn.
> I’m asking, cause it’s taken probably 2 months or more to get this 39%. It seems to be in the margin where I don’t burn.
Burning is always accretive so the only question is do you want to incur the overhead (time and effort) to burn?
> I’m thinking the turning point is if you would have 100% stapler available with a burn. And have less than 50% of the next level, that you would burn? I should have the math to support this, but my brain hurts right now. LOL.
tgode has some modelling about whether burning will short the time to completion or not. Perhaps he will share here. I try not to burn at more than 50% but that stops applying when you've hit the wall.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
> tgode has some modelling about whether burning will short the time to completion or not. Perhaps he will share here. I try not to burn at more than 50% but that stops applying when you've hit the wall.
I actually have a spreadsheet that calculates the answer to this exact question at any point wherever you are. My daughter derived the equation used in the calculations.
There are multiple variables at play when calculating whether or not to burn. The first of which is your percent complete of the current level. In your case, it's 39%.
Next, you need to calculate the Current Stapler Ratio (CSR):
CSR=(Current Staplers+New Staplers)/Current Staplers.
Next, you need to calculate what I call the "Burn Ratio (BR)." You calculate the BR by using the equation my daughter derived:
BR=100/(100-100 x Percent Complete)
If the CSR is larger than the BR, then it is always mathematically worth burning.
In your case, we don't know what your CSR is, but we do know that if you put 39% into the BR equation, you get 1.639. If your CSR is greater than 1.639, then it is worth burning. If it is smaller, then it is not.
I'll use my current staplers for the level I'm on to illustrate the process.
I'm at 4.16% complete for level 58. I have 2.158E+44 current staplers. If I burn, the burn page shows I will earn 3.076E+43 additional staplers. This makes my CSR 1.143. My BR is 1.043 (defined above). My CSR is larger than my BR, so at this point it is worth burning.
I also have calculated how much time is saved, but it's not directly relevant to the calculation you asked for. It can factor in if you don't want to bother burning for a few seconds of time saved, or it will be obvious if you save hours or days that burning is the best action.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
> *Originally posted by **[tgode](/forums/889887/topics/1930175?page=1#13551874)**:*
> I actually have a spreadsheet that calculates the answer to this exact question at any point wherever you are. My daughter derived the equation used in the calculations.
Thanks for posting!
> Burn Ratio=100/(100-100 x Percent Complete)
Small correction: this works if we use 0.0416. If we're using 4.16% skip the "100 x " in the denominator as it's already factored in.
> I'm at 4.16% complete for level 58. I have 2.158E+44 current staplers. If I burn, the burn page shows I will earn 3.076E+43 additional staplers. This makes my CSR 1.143. My Burn Ratio is 1.043 (defined above). My CSR is greater than my Burn Ratio, so at this point it is worth burning.
The game pops the red exclamation badge when the CSR is 2.000. The Burn Ratio is 2.000 when the level is 50% complete. 45% complete is a Burn Ratio of 1.818, 55% is 2.222. Hm.
The Burn Ratio just keeps getting higher the closer to completion... Did you say that backwards, and it's worthwhile burning when the Stapler Ratio is bigger than the Burn Ratio?
I'm thinking about deep in an event I played, I started burning when the new staplers were only 10% of existing, that is, the Stapler Ratio was 1.1. At 99.5% complete, the Burn Ratio is 200, but I'm pretty sure that's not a good burn (it will take longer to complete the level after burning than it would just waiting without burning).
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
You good Sir are a true gentleman and a scholar.
My CSR is 1.559. BR is 1.639, so the math says to burn.
Now, what tickles my fancy, and brings up repressed memories from Calculus class: what is the optimal ratio of BR to CSR whereas you would level up the fastest? Or is it as simple as burning as soon as your BR surpasses the CSR? If that’s the case, I’ve lost a couple weeks letting my BR get too high.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
Studog, I just noticed the same thing. I think he misspoke and reversed the ratios. You want to burn when the BR is greater than the CSR.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
Sorry, got my greater than and less than signs confused when I was going over my spreadsheet formulas. You are right. I got the BR and CSR backwards. Correcting in the original post above.
Studog, I don't think the game is actually sophisticated enough to recognize when burning is worth it. I think it turns on the red exclamation badge simply when the new available staplers meets or exceeds your current staplers. That happens to be when the CSR is equal to or greater than 2.000. As you point out, when you are 99.5% complete, the BR is very high. That doesn't always mean burning will never be worth it. You might have a CSR that is incredibly high at that point. Conversely, you could be very early in a level and not have enough staplers to make burning worth it.
I think mdt asked the $64k question here, what is the optimal ratio? Short answer - I don't know...yet. I've been working on that by taking down some empirical data in various events. I've been mulling over this question for years during events. Early on, when you are leveling up very quickly and amassing a greater magnitude of staplers, when is the optimal time to burn and maximize the long game effects we are all looking for? If I ever definitively figure out the answer, you know I'll post it here.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
Now they’ve hidden my original post. No idea why.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
> _Originally posted by **[tgode](/forums/534035/topics/1930175?page=1#13551887):**_
> Now they’ve hidden my original post. No idea why.
Wow! That is bizarre! Glad I screenshot it! There’s no link, or anything offensive, so it’s weird what would have triggered it.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
> *Originally posted by **[tgode](/forums/889887/topics/1930175?page=1#13551887)**:*
> Now they’ve hidden my original post. No idea why.
It's back now, or at least, I can see the corrections you made.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
> _Originally posted by **[tgode](/forums/534035/topics/1930175?page=1#13551874):**_
> CSR=(Current Staplers+New Staplers)/Current Staplers.
>
> Next, you need to calculate what I call the "Burn Ratio (BR)." If the BR is smaller than your CSR, then it is always mathematically worth burning.
>
Thanks for the calculations tgode! For completeness and posterity, the above should read the opposite, correct?
If BR is LARGER than your CSR (or “CSR is smaller” to use the phrasing in the rest of the post).
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
> *Originally posted by **[xphile3101](/forums/889887/topics/1930175?page=1#13552095)**:*
> > _Originally posted by **[tgode](/forums/534035/topics/1930175?page=1#13551874):**_
> > CSR=(Current Staplers+New Staplers)/Current Staplers.
> >
> > Next, you need to calculate what I call the "Burn Ratio (BR)." If the BR is smaller than your CSR, then it is always mathematically worth burning.
> >
>
> Thanks for the calculations tgode! For completeness and posterity, the above should read the opposite, correct?
> If BR is LARGER than your CSR (or “CSR is smaller” to use the phrasing in the rest of the post).
>
>
>
>
Okay, I think I've had to correct my original post 3 times now. Sorry if I've confused anyone. I keep getting the greater thans and less thans wrong. I think it is now correct. Please check the original post for consistency and correctness.
To be worth burning, the CSR needs to be larger than the BR. OR, conversely, the BR needs to be less than the CSR.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
I think it’s still backwards. I thought it was established that the BR needs to be greater than the CSR?
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
> *Originally posted by **[mdt1105](/forums/889887/topics/1930175?page=1#13552237)**:*
> I think it’s still backwards. I thought it was established that the BR needs to be greater than the CSR?
No. The burn ratio _insert calculus here_ approaches infinity as the level completion gets closer to 100%. This can roughly be thought of as "the amount of value already invested in completing the level", which you sacrifice when you burn. So burning when completion is 0% (Burn Ratio is 1.0) means you're sacrificing very close to nothing to accomplish the burn. Completion is 99.9% (BR is 200) means you're sacrificing quite a lot to accomplish the burn.
The idea is to avoid sacrificing so much completion-value that you'll take longer to complete the level than if you hadn't sacrified.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
Ok, I think my gears are slowly turning. After plugging in the values from my initial example, both ratios are 2. But as soon as you pass up 100% stapler gain, the CSR is greater than the BR.
What I’m getting at though, is the time spent/saved variable, and how it comes into play.
Stated as a question; Is it ever faster to reach the next level by burning before your staplers would double?
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
> *Originally posted by **[mdt1105](/forums/889887/topics/1930175?page=1#13552373)**:*
> Stated as a question; Is it ever faster to reach the next level by burning before your staplers would double?
That is the $64,000 Question... and I don't know for sure. I strongly suspect yes though.
Consider when you've hit your wall... actually, I think I know the answer is yes but not until you've hit your wall perhaps. Hm. I'll keep an eye on the next few events, see what I can figure out.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
Depends on event timeframe. I assume this is about the event. On day 2 there is little value in waiting on a level. I burn with my FF still in play and don't even bother leveling each time. Come back in an hour and burn again. After 3 or 4 burns I then change to fast medium slow floors and level and get 2 or 3 new ones. Then repeat.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
This is in reference to the main game. When it takes upwards of 3 to 6 months to level up, you reach that point where you have to decide when your last burn will be. Trying to figure out the parameters of how you know not to burn again.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
Oops. Sorry, you did say main game. In that case, I don't really do much there. I just let it happen. Months to level? Wow. Never paid attention. If a level is there when I start it up, I collect it. I've actually got an expansion ready but hate all the effort required to get back to where it will auto level again. Several burns and having to do all the bonus each time is laborious.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
Mdt, what is your main game level / place?
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
> _Originally posted by **[davelink](/forums/534035/topics/1930175?page=1#13552676):**_
> Mdt, what is your main game level / place?
Level 161. 7th place.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
So I just started playing around with expansions. Went from 200th place or so a week or two ago to 51 now. I just realized something....after an expansion, just work on Initech and burn and burn and burn. Get it over e110 or so, then add the other floors to start leveling. Maybe I'm the only one who didn't realize that the other floors have no bearing on stapler percent / burnings.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
A data point:
Currently in #2 at Level 80, with VJARBOW threatening to overtake.
Current staplers: 4.741e62
New staplers: 3.349e62
CSR: 1.702
% complete: 67.23
BR: 3.052
CSR > BR? False
It's faster to wait than to burn.
My modelling indicates 7h 4m to completion.
Totally off on a tangent: I used a 4hr warp. Now my time to completion is 2h 48. Including the 4h of warping, that's 6h 48m total, a savings of one 16m floor cycle. Without balancing T2:T3 (I'm letting T2 accumulate until the epic generator sell-back). So 4 hours of T1 production saves about 0.5 floor cycles. That's only going to be true right now though, same as a car's speed is only that speed/true for an instant while the car is accelerating.
Edit to add the post-warp data:
Current staplers: 4.741e62
New staplers: 4.04e62
CSR: 1.852
% complete: 87.17
BR: 7.794
CSR > BR? False
It's faster to wait than to burn.
|
|
|
|
|
metadata
Completed Level 81 just now. Now the data is:
Current staplers: 4.741e62
New staplers: 7.381e62
CSR: 2.557
% complete: 00.02
BR: 1.000
CSR > BR? True
My model predicts a pre-burn completion of: 754h 56m which is Jan 8 2021 22:29:19
Stay tuned for an update when I get back to Level 81 post-burn.
Update: Worth it.
My model predicts a pre-burn completion of: 268h 24m which is Dec 19 2020 21:53:54
|
 "mdt1105"){kind=avatar}
 "studog2010"){kind=small}
 "tgode"){kind=small}
 "xphile3101"){kind=small}