I have considered how to deliver the following line of thought, appreciation, and pseudo-analysis of the game and its potential for growth and future development into a real blockbuster; The core base is solid enough (sound mechanics, neat design, plenty of room for lore, adequate and fitting sound environment) to warrant such thoughts. Since I couldn’t come up with clear and easy2read paragraphs with point per point sections, I shall submit this, the way I came to think it. Everything here is of course open to debate and/or discussion. > # Career vs Campaign - what’s the point? This is where it all begins. After reading thoroughly the rules, and playing around with both modes, it became clear to me that the Career mode is the XP grinder (called FAME in-game, not to be confused with character experience) to “fame-up” in a regular and player friendly progression, where loss (aka death) entails no penalty. Campaign is closely related to some modes in various hack’n’slashes and MMORPGs (hello Diablo), namely the “hardcore” modes - penalty for death is an (almost) full reset, start again from (almost) square one; I say almost since here we keep part of the progression, that is the fame gained, and the dragon number count. This quickly led me to a first question: what’s the point of Campaign? I mean, I for sure understand the thrill of racing against other players in a more difficult mode for the leaderboard, if of course you are of the competitive type. But bar this, there is no apparent gain to Campaign over Career. Indeed, both reward fame equally, and fame is the only reward to be considered since that is the only permanent marker present in the game so far. ***Let’s make here a short mental note of something I shall address later: fame has a cap.*** So why would one even play Campaign, since it proposes riskier progression for equal benefits? Surely to accompany the harder, tougher stick, should be a juicier carrot... “But what could that be?” I then thought to myself. The obvious choice would seem to be some kind of fame bonus for “Campaigning”, since - as said previously - that is the only current permanent marker.

> # Fame – innovative yet limited. The way the game is built around a single rewarding stat, Fame, is quite smart and innovative. Like XP in common games of the genre, Fame will make you stronger... well, no quite, but it does give you a “chance” at starting with better items, making you stronger. Moreover, and this is **genius** in my honest opinion, gaining fame unlocks new layers of content within the game; new levels, new monsters, new “boss” rooms with opportunities for great temporary power surges illustrated by better items, to make you stronger during this run. However, having the whole game revolving around a single reward has its limitations. Indeed, the only “way” to truly reward players in such a system, is to grant them more of the only “true” permanent reward, that is: Fame. This is already the case for Tourney mode. And we already considered that a potential carrot for Campaign would probably be more... Fame. ***Remember that mental note earlier? Fame has a cap.*** By rewarding more Fame, you are giving players the opportunity, at first, to unlock content and potentially better starting power faster than just simple grinding. But in the long run, what you are doing is that you are speeding their way to the apparent end-of-the-line, that is: the Fame cap at 50. What then? Once you’ve unlocked everything, once you’re max level, what’s to keep the players playing, what goal is there to pursue? So here I found myself with a conundrum... the only and best way to reward permanently players for specific feats, is to give them more Fame. * But giving them more Fame is, in the long run, shortening the game’s lifespan for the said players. * But not giving players some carrot to chase makes some modes redundant, and puts the game at risk of becoming a repetitive grind cycle, which could discourage many. So, how to work around this?

> # From beta to blockbuster This last part is even more opinionated than the previous writings, since we now enter the domain of creative thinking. And obviously, if I was** that** good at developing ideas for games, I would do so myself rather than give free counsel to other companies. So, far from me the thought that I may have any kind of solid solution, as to the best way to go forwards from here. I write these thoughts more on the basis of giving grounds to creative discussion and debate, since a group always is smarter than an individual. I would be inclined to think that there needs to be secondary, or even tertiary “permanent” rewards, that would grow as the player dedicates more time to the game. These could then become the rewards for feats such as the Campaign mode, the Tourney, and whatever new content that would follow. It would alleviate the pressure on Fame progression, since now the player would be chasing multiple, different goals. You could even consider split rewarding with each mode reward specific. For example: * Career would give more Fame, but less or none of rewards 2 and 3 * Campaign would give more of reward 2, but less or none of Fame and reward 3 * Tourney would give more of Reward 3, and less or none of Fame and reward 2. Of course, the game would need more content to accommodate with whatever these new rewards would be. For example, if those are a pure increase in power, the game should offer more difficulty to compensate. If those are specific skills (eg %chance resist stun), then the game should have more enemies that make the specific skill worthwhile. It appears to me that a course of action along the lines of the above would be healthy for the game, since it would be killing three birds with one stone: * acting upon the problematic of the rush to fame cap * giving more qualitative value to the various game modes * laying foundations for future content development. But as I said, that is just my opinion. Feel free to share yours.

Since no one has reacted so far to my rantings, I shall continue to share thoughts, however interesting or lackluster they may be. Again, these are open to discussion if anyone should so wish. > # Daily thought - Scrolls, a (very) generous ressource Today, as I checked out a few players (you can see someone's stats by clicking their name in any of the leaderboards), I realised that many had a rather large number of deaths. Since I so far only had a single death - a stupid one where I got cornered the first time I ever entered a tunnel - I took a minute to analyse my approach to gameplay. Since the very start, I accepted that the most valuable ressource were the HP potions. Indeed, here they pretty much represent what would be a "health bar" in other games of similar genres. Therefore, the more HP pots in stock, "the bigger the health bar". That led me to consider how and when to tank out the damage, and when to avoid it as much as possible. The decision was quickly made to try and preserve as many HP pots as possible for the final dragon fight(s), for diverse reasons such as focus stacking. And to that avail, I mentally thanked the devs for the scrolls. My approach is that I am "trading" scrolls for hp - spending the first, to preserve the last. And that had worked wonders - my only single death vouched for it. ... "But maybe it's working ***too*** well?", I ask myself. Indeed, the scroll drops, and the liberty to use them, are quite, if not very, generous. Sometimes dropping up to 4 stacks, AND you can technically use one of each type, **on every turn**. But what if the scrolls were a more limited ressource? We could imagine having a max drop of 2. Or limiting the use to one or two of each type per room. Today I decided to try out a less scroll-heavy approach for a few games, limiting my usage to only one scroll of each type per room. Just to see if this would make the game more challenging. And yup ... I died. Twice.

Thanks, SilverEyes, for creating this forum and such thoughtful posts. Regarding the issue of having a point for Campaign mode, we've been intending to award fame points for completing Campaign victories (with progressively higher awards based on the # of dragons). But we've held off because ... We are considering the elimination of Fame Points entirely. (making your post on Fame very timely) Instead … - Your characters gain XP like now. No fame points. - We change the hero level system so that the benefit from going up in character level is not so extreme, but we add lots more levels. There would be significant diminishing returns, but you’d always be able to work on improving your characters through XP. - Starting weapons always use the same algorithm. So your character’s level is the only permanent “advantage”. - Game Unlocks and your Title (like “So-and-So the Clever”) will be based on attaining victories, but only during the First Phase (see below) (We’d come up with better terminology for everything below) THE FIRST PHASE Right now, there is no specified long term goal. It's just about killing the next dragon at hand. The idea of a First Phase attempts to address that, as well as create a more structured framework for introducing the game. New players would be given the goal of defeating 10 Red Dragons (or something like that). If they can do it, they will become an Elite Dungeoneer (maybe the Order of Dungeoneers), and gain access to Campaigns and Tourneys, as well as be able to continue progressing in Career mode. During the First Phase, unlocks (ie Haste scrolls) and titles (ie “the Clever”) are awarded after a victory. So no fame points are needed. THE ELITE PHASE Because all the game’s features will be unlocked during the first phase, all elite dungeoneers will be playing the same game (other than having characters of different level.) In other words, all tournament and campaign games would have all the unlocks, regardless of who is playing. We’d probably just get rid of the titles, so all elite dungeoneers just go by their name. An elite player’s long term goals would be leveling their characters and/or getting higher in the standings. The former will help with the later, but the later will also help with the former … When you win a game, there would be an XP multiplier which reflects the difficulty of the dragon challenge and whether the game is campaign or tourney. For instance, if your characters earned 100 XP in a victory, maybe it's multiplied by 10 you defeated 2 Reds, or by 11 if you defeated 2 Whites. Victory multipliers would work a bit differently in Campaign and Tourney mode, reflecting the increased challenge. You could play whichever mode is the most fun or whichever mode you feel offers the best opportunity for XP. Eventually we’d add more ways to get XP, like a daily quest, team tourneys, and such. How does that sound? I guess I have two specific questions: 1) What do you think of getting rid of Fame and relying on XP as the only form of progression that transcends game modes? and 2) What do you think of the idea of these two Phases (whatever we will call them)? --Alex

Nice strategy SilverEyes. I get killed a lot, but my strategy has mainly been to gain as much xp as possible so I have taken a lot of risks. The tourney forces me to play differently though and thats good. About eliminating famepoints... Isnt there a risk that this change may discourage ppl from buying additional heroes? I think that it may perhaps be better then to just focus on one hero to get him/her at as high lvl as possible, than play multiple characters? Btw I got a suggestion; let us deselect the graphical roll of the dices to make combats a bit faster.

> *Originally posted by **[Zak25](/forums/979845/topics/1481805?page=1#12347681)**:* > Nice strategy SilverEyes. I get killed a lot, but my strategy has mainly been to gain as much xp as possible so I have taken a lot of risks. The tourney forces me to play differently though and thats good. We orignally only awarded fame/xp for chests and dragons (not regular monsters) because we did not want to promote the idea of fighting everything you see. We decided to award XP for killing monsters just because that's what players are used to and seem to want. Do you think we should go back to only giving XP for loot and dragons, to encourage a little more discretion in fighting? > > About eliminating famepoints... > Isnt there a risk that this change may discourage ppl from buying additional heroes? I think that it may perhaps be better then to just focus on one hero to get him/her at as high lvl as possible, than play multiple characters? It's a good point. The idea would be that you get diminishing returns from leveling because the XP needed to level would get significantly higher with each level. So you'd be better off if you judiciously used three level 3 heroes than if you used just one level 5 hero. However, you're right that people may still want to focus on leveling one character. Maybe we could say that going beyond a certain level requires training, which is another form of purchase. That way we can collect payments from either style of play. > Btw I got a suggestion; > let us deselect the graphical roll of the dices to make combats a bit faster. I don't know about completely eliminated the rolls, but we do have plans to speed things up (or have the option to speed things up). --Alex

> *Originally posted by **[RogueSword](/forums/979845/topics/1481805?page=1#12348005)**:* > > We orignally only awarded fame/xp for chests and dragons (not regular monsters) because we did not want to promote the idea of fighting everything you see. We decided to award XP for killing monsters just because that's what players are used to and seem to want. > > Do you think we should go back to only giving XP for loot and dragons, to encourage a little more discretion in fighting? No I think its fine as it is. Actually I have stopped fighting everything I see to be better prepared for the dragons. > > It's a good point. The idea would be that you get diminishing returns from leveling because the XP needed to level would get significantly higher with each level. So you'd be better off if you judiciously used three level 3 heroes than if you used just one level 5 hero. However, you're right that people may still want to focus on leveling one character. Maybe we could say that going beyond a certain level requires training, which is another form of purchase. That way we can collect payments from either style of play. That I dont think would improve the game. Using multiple heroes makes the game much more interesting to play IMO, so it would be a shame if we avoided that because we needed to focus on only one character. And having to pay to level up at a certain point I think would guarantee a bad rating here on Kong. A better solution I think would be to have 'shared experience' between your heroes, so if one gain 5 xp the other two also gains something, for exampel 2 xp each. This would make having three characters more attractive if the fame will be removed, and this could either be a second purchase option or be included in the first one. > > I don't know about completely eliminated the rolls, but we do have plans to speed things up (or have the option to speed things up). > That sounds good.

> *Originally posted by **[Zak25](/forums/979845/topics/1481805?page=1#12348145)**:* > A better solution I think would be to have 'shared experience' between your heroes, so if one gain 5 xp the other two also gains something, for exampel 2 xp each. This would make having three characters more attractive if the fame will be removed, and this could either be a second purchase option or be included in the first one. > I like that. Should the XP be shared even if you haven't purchased the other heroes yet? (That way they stay fairly even and you aren't buying significantly weaker characters.)

> *Originally posted by **[RogueSword](/forums/979845/topics/1481805?page=1#12350792)**:* > > I like that. Should the XP be shared even if you haven't purchased the other heroes yet? (That way they stay fairly even and you aren't buying significantly weaker characters.) That would probably be a good idea.

How about limit the number of crawlers that spawn for the Huntress? Sometimes I find up 4 or 5 spawn in a single map if you aren't quick enough to kill stuff...

What about backstab bonus?

 This is a bit extreme isn't it? I know there's a new screen per 5 dragons, but can you cap the max number per screen?

Not a fan of games where you die a lot. But it's okay.

What about limiting the number of dragons in a room to something more sensible? I quit playing the elf because she's completely useless when there's 7 dragons stuffed in a room.

A suggestion from myself: more unlockable content. Maybe another floor below the ruins. Maybe more bosses. Or perhaps work on the miniboss difficulty (as I find the Lich Queen somewhat easy to kill.) I am not too sure how will content be unlocked once fame is removed. Perhaps it will be based on the 'level' of the dungeon you're currently at? i.e. something like whether you'll be fighting 2 white dragons, 2 red dragons or 3 black dragons as the dungeons' final boss.

> *Originally posted by **[yukodragon1350](/forums/979845/topics/1481805?page=1#12952505)**:* > A suggestion from myself: more unlockable content. Maybe another floor below the ruins. Maybe more bosses. Or perhaps work on the miniboss difficulty (as I find the Lich Queen somewhat easy to kill.) > > I am not too sure how will content be unlocked once fame is removed. Perhaps it will be based on the 'level' of the dungeon you're currently at? i.e. something like whether you'll be fighting 2 white dragons, 2 red dragons or 3 black dragons as the dungeons' final boss. We are definitely going to be adding more unlockable content. Not sure what you mean by "once fame is removed", though.

> *Originally posted by **[RogueSword](/forums/979845/topics/1481805?page=1#12952614)**:* > > *Originally posted by **[yukodragon1350](/forums/979845/topics/1481805?page=1#12952505)**:* > > A suggestion from myself: more unlockable content. Maybe another floor below the ruins. Maybe more bosses. Or perhaps work on the miniboss difficulty (as I find the Lich Queen somewhat easy to kill.) > > > > I am not too sure how will content be unlocked once fame is removed. Perhaps it will be based on the 'level' of the dungeon you're currently at? i.e. something like whether you'll be fighting 2 white dragons, 2 red dragons or 3 black dragons as the dungeons' final boss. > > We are definitely going to be adding more unlockable content. Not sure what you mean by "once fame is removed", though. > *Originally posted by **[RogueSword](/forums/979845/topics/1481805?page=1#12347206)**:* > > Thanks, SilverEyes, for creating this forum and such thoughtful posts. > > Regarding the issue of having a point for Campaign mode, we've been intending to award fame points for completing Campaign victories (with progressively higher awards based on the # of dragons). But we've held off because ... > > We are considering the elimination of Fame Points entirely. (making your post on Fame very timely) > > Instead … > > - Your characters gain XP like now. No fame points. > - We change the hero level system so that the benefit from going up in character level is not so extreme, but we add lots more levels. There would be significant diminishing returns, but you’d always be able to work on improving your characters through XP. > - Starting weapons always use the same algorithm. So your character’s level is the only permanent “advantage”. > - Game Unlocks and your Title (like “So-and-So the Clever”) will be based on attaining victories, but only during the First Phase (see below) > > (We’d come up with better terminology for everything below) > > THE FIRST PHASE > > Right now, there is no specified long term goal. It's just about killing the next dragon at hand. The idea of a First Phase attempts to address that, as well as create a more structured framework for introducing the game. New players would be given the goal of defeating 10 Red Dragons (or something like that). If they can do it, they will become an Elite Dungeoneer (maybe the Order of Dungeoneers), and gain access to Campaigns and Tourneys, as well as be able to continue progressing in Career mode. > > During the First Phase, unlocks (ie Haste scrolls) and titles (ie “the Clever”) are awarded after a victory. So no fame points are needed. > > THE ELITE PHASE > > Because all the game’s features will be unlocked during the first phase, all elite dungeoneers will be playing the same game (other than having characters of different level.) In other words, all tournament and campaign games would have all the unlocks, regardless of who is playing. We’d probably just get rid of the titles, so all elite dungeoneers just go by their name. > > An elite player’s long term goals would be leveling their characters and/or getting higher in the standings. The former will help with the later, but the later will also help with the former … > > When you win a game, there would be an XP multiplier which reflects the difficulty of the dragon challenge and whether the game is campaign or tourney. For instance, if your characters earned 100 XP in a victory, maybe it's multiplied by 10 you defeated 2 Reds, or by 11 if you defeated 2 Whites. Victory multipliers would work a bit differently in Campaign and Tourney mode, reflecting the increased challenge. > > You could play whichever mode is the most fun or whichever mode you feel offers the best opportunity for XP. Eventually we’d add more ways to get XP, like a daily quest, team tourneys, and such. > > How does that sound? I guess I have two specific questions: 1) What do you think of getting rid of Fame and relying on XP as the only form of progression that transcends game modes? and 2) What do you think of the idea of these two Phases (whatever we will call them)? > > --Alex > > You mentioned that you're considering the elimination of Fame Points, which was what I meant by 'once fame is removed'

> > You mentioned that you're considering the elimination of Fame Points, which was what I meant by 'once fame is removed' Wow, good research. That was an old conversation at the beginning of our beta. We used to have Fame Points, where you could gain points in different ways, then eventually level up in fame. We did get rid of fame points, and replaced it with the simpler system where you go up in Fame Level with each career victory, but there are not "points", just levels. We have no intention of removing Fame Levels.