A few issues with Cleave: 1. It's over-powered right now, at least vs. dragons. 2. It's only of any use vs. 2+ hp monsters 3. It doesn't do what people expect from cleave, which is to hit multiple targets. We can address #1 easily right now by changing the base cleave chance from 20% to 10%. And 20%/30% with Full Swing 1/2. We will probably do that regardless of below. #2 and #3 could be addressed by saying that a cleave will hit two adjacent monsters, however I'm not a fan of that because it works against the basic swordsman tactic, which is to isolate targets to fight one at a time. So what do you think of this? Instead of Cleave and Full Swing, the swordsman has Thrust and Duel. Thrust would replace Cleave and would work as follows: If you manage a thrust against a monster with 2 or more hp, you do 2 hits. If it just has one hp, you do one hit against your target and score an additional hit against any target which is on the space directly behind your target. Duel would replace Full Swing. It would work the same way, except that the name would be more consistent with one-on-one combat that involves a greater chance of thrusting. How does that sound? (An alternate name to Thrust would be Lunge. Let me know if you like Lunge better. But I don't like it because it doesn't really imply doing more damage, just the longer reach. Whereas thrust covers both cases.)

I'm in favor of changing Full Swing's name to Duel, regardless of any other changes. I'd also favor changing Cleave's name to Critical or Double Strike or something like that if it remains unchanged. Thrust doesn't really imply the piercing nature of its effect to me, so I'd rather have it just be named Pierce if it has that effect. Thrust as described is pretty interesting in that it emphasizes the Swordsman's natural desire to have a steady flow of enemies getting to him one at a time and taking them each down as they come, but because this game uses a hex grid rather than squares it feels like it might be inconsistent in terms of the enemy moving straight towards you not necessarily coming from the tile that's now directly behind him, and thus the enemy following him not being in position for Thrust. Perhaps allow it to hit any of the three hexes behind the target rather than just one? While the piercing nature of Thrust is interesting, it's complex enough to apply well that I wouldn't want to drop it on new players immediately as a starting ability where they might miss it (I know I didn't know Punt was a thing until the first time it triggered). To that end, I propose that instead of nerfing Thrust's base chance to 10% you simply change Duel 1 to adding the pierce effect instead of increasing the trigger rate. Duel 2 would still increase the trigger rate by 10%, but now to 30% rather than 40%.

I personally do not think cleave is overpowered, and that is because it is a matter of chance. In other words, i cannot rely on it in order to build my tactics. It is a really nice bonus when it happens, but it cannot affect my decisions because it only triggers sometimes. Considering the above, changing how often it triggers (and making it either more or less often) is not going to make any real difference into how i play the human. About its name, it also took me some time to figure out how it works. D&D conditioning is hard to shake off. But here is the thing, after playing dungeoneers, cleave has a new meaning for me! It means that you can hit fat monster twice as hard - ony occassionaly. Honestly i am fine with the name, but a name change is also ok, and even a change of the mechanics like the one proposed looks fine too. Sorry if i dont help much but: leave it as it is, or change it, it will still be fun either way. And now i am going to be the minority (or maybe not since hey, this is not really a poll) and state that i like full swing more than duel. Its more manly man manly. Duel summons some feather on the hat imagery that doesnt fit at all with the picture of the ragged human dungeoneer. Again though: either change or not change the name, its fine by me.

I agree with vavusikarios. It is not consistent enough to be reliable, and the 20% when it does trigger is a sweet bonus. I've had the misfortune to not have it trigger at all in fights against a room of Ogres and that was very painful. I would suggest to change the potency by removing the 2 DMG in one turn, by granting a bonus to the next attack. So it will be a "20% to gain +4 on a melee attack made in the next turn". Maybe call it "Hack & Hew". The bonus is significant, because it is intended to go a good way to ensure a hit in the next attack. It's potency is watered down by not having 2 DMG dealt in 1 turn; meaning that 2+ HP monsters can still be a menance in that turn. The "melee attack in the next turn" further limits the ability from tranferring to a bow attack or allow the swordsman to move. It will remain useful against multi-HP targets, and 1HP targets that are nearby (monsters will move in). Alternatively, since these are really complex, perhaps simply grant it a 20% chance to stun any ONE target adjacent to the swordsman (the multi-HP target if not dead, any other adjacent monster otherwise). This would be powerful to remove one creature in a crowd, allow a potential 2 DMG before the multi-HP creature can act, and allow it to remain useful aganst 1HP targets. It also lends a certain kinship to his Punt ability. However, all said and done, my personal thought on its "OP-ness" against dragons is simply due to economy of action. Against a number of dragons, each dragon only attacks once. Being primarily melee, they often move rather than actually attacking, if the player plays well enough. Against a room of Ogres Melee/Mages for example, it is far less potent. They collectively have 4-6 moves per turn compared to the 2-3 dragons. That is about double the threat to the hero, with Englarge, Fireballs, and Summons along with needing to deal with about 2 melee attacks. No room of dragons can manage that, even if the dragons do hit more consistently.

> *Originally posted by **[shift244](/forums/979845/topics/1782164?page=1#12963121)**:* "20% to gain +4 on a melee attack made in the next turn". The scary thing about just giving big +attack bonuses is Massive Strike. If you've got a +9 sword and you're dealing with a room of low defense enemies like Zombies or Ghosts, you can easily be swinging at +6 over their defense, meaning you need to roll an 11 to get a massive strike. Add in a +4 from this and a +2 from either full swing 2 or press depending on situation, suddenly you need to roll a 5 or better, giving you a Massive Strike two thirds of the time. Once you get that first Massive Strike, its feat bonus will be comparable to this +4 so it can be chained fairly easily, especially if you're lucky enough to get a Massive Strike that also triggers this, guarenteeing the next Massive Strike. Suddenly your Swordsman who's meant to take down single big targets is instead killing 3-4 little targets in one round, while also moving across the room (and moving and attacking is the Dwarven Brawler's thing). If we try to nudge down the number to, say, +2 it stops having a big impact against the big high defense creatures like Dragons, and feels like it's not even noteworthy when it triggers. The only thing I can think of to salvage it at that point would be allowing it to trigger on misses too, which could be interesting, but changes the ability from being a big random power spike to being a more consistent DPS boost, which I'm not sure is wanted. > Alternatively, since these are really complex, perhaps simply grant it a 20% chance to stun any ONE target adjacent to the swordsman (the multi-HP target if not dead, any other adjacent monster otherwise). This runs into a thematic problem because the Swordsman is meant to excel against single targets, while the Dwarven Brawler wants to be in the middle of a lot of guys, but this makes the Swordsman want to have at least one extra enemy next to him to get a stun chance. It's also problematic in that sometimes you don't want to stun enemies. For example, if you're getting mobbed by melees so you're guard spamming to get the counter attacks, but there's a mage at the other end of the room, you want the enemies to not be stunned so that you can clear them out faster and get to deal with the mage.

I don't really like "Thrust" either. It implies the style of attack, not the outcome. "Pierce" is a good suggestion, but I feel Pierce implies a better likelihood of hitting, but not necessarily doing more damage. Also, we want it to be good as a verb. It's fun to say, "I cleaved the dragon." But "I thrusted the dragon." or "I pierced the dragon" ... not something I'd want to say. Here's one I like: "Skewer." It works for both doing extra damage and for hitting the monster behind your target. And I would enjoy saying "I skewered the dragon." And yes, "Duel" is a bit too swashbucklery for our particular swordsman. However, as others said, it's more important to focus on the gameplay of the swordsman and how it differs from the brawler. But I'm open to other suggestions instead of "Duel". Maybe "Single Combat" or "Engage". I think "Engage" is my favorite because it's good as a verb: "I'm going to engage this ogre." So I'll use "Engage" for now. We're thinking about changes to the other heroes' skills, so how about we talk about all this together. Here's my proposal: SWORDSMAN - Rename "Cleave" to "Skewer" and "Full Swing" to "Engage" - If you Skewer a 2+ h.p. monster, you score 2 hits. If you Skewer a 1 hit point monster, and there is a monster right behind it, you hit that too. (TBD whether "behind" includes all three angles) - Either make the chance of Skewering 10/20/30% (instead of the current cleave of 20/30/40%) OR make it so there's always a 20% chance of a hit skewering (Engage would just affect chance of hitting, not chance of skewering.) BRAWLER - Replace Resilience with Cleave. - Sword hits (not uppercuts) have a 20% chance of cleaving. If you Cleave a 2+ h.p. monster, you do two hits. If you Cleave a 1 hit point monster, and there is a monster adjacent to both you and your target, you hit that too. (If two such adjacent targets, picked randomly.)\ Or we could leave Resilience and instead replace Bellow (call the worm) with Cleave, and let any hero Bellow (it would be a fame unlock). HUNTRESS - Replace Presence with Multi Shot. - Multi Shot: Your bow attacks include any monster that is adjacent to your target and at the same range from you. There would be an attack penalty against the adjacent monsters, like -5. So if you were attacking at +7, you'd have a +2 attack against the other monster(s). The penalty would not be as bad when you attain the Multi Shot 2 skill. What do you think?

> The scary thing about just giving big +attack bonuses is Massive Strike I suppose you could make it a bonus to hit, but not accumulate towards Massive Strike? Or have a -2 penalty towards rolls for consecutive Massive Strike (without affecting chance to hit)? The idea being to break the chain without affecting chance to hit. I suppose, it really depends on how these are currently implemented; and how you see the base rules as being overwritable, I suppose. > This runs into a thematic problem because the Swordsman is meant to excel against single targets, while the Dwarven Brawler wants to be in the middle of a lot of guys, Ah. I wasn't aware of this. I'd like to suggest giving the swordsman more tactical abilities to control the battlefield then. As it is, I feel him a little squishy against multiple targets (whch would be as intended, he's not supposed to be good in such situations). But in the more open maps, it can be a little difficult to manage, relying only fire scrolls to funnel monsters; unless I'm missing something? > - If you Skewer a 2+ h.p. monster, you score 2 hits. If you Skewer a 1 hit point monster, and there is a monster right behind it, you hit that too. (TBD whether "behind" includes all three angles) > - Either make the chance of Skewering 10/20/30% (instead of the current cleave of 20/30/40%) OR make it so there's always a 20% chance of a hit skewering (Engage would just affect chance of hitting, not chance of skewering.) Increasing the ability for 1HP monsters is an additional advantage, the situational reqiurement may be restrictive, but if it does trigger, would be welcomed. Unsure about lowering the odds however, much prefer the fixed at 20% version. This makes it as useful at lower levels, without being overbearing at higher levels. > - Sword hits (not uppercuts) have a 20% chance of cleaving. If you Cleave a 2+ h.p. monster, you do two hits. If you Cleave a 1 hit point monster, and there is a monster adjacent to both you and your target, you hit that too. (If two such adjacent targets, picked randomly.)\ > > Or we could leave Resilience and instead replace Bellow (call the worm) with Cleave, and let any hero Bellow (it would be a fame unlock). The loss of Resilience will be mourned, but the bonus against multiple enemies is welcomed. Replacing Bellow would be interesting. > - Replace Presence with Multi Shot. > - Multi Shot: Your bow attacks include any monster that is adjacent to your target and at the same range from you. There would be an attack penalty against the adjacent monsters, like -5. So if you were attacking at +7, you'd have a +2 attack against the other monster(s). The penalty would not be as bad when you attain the Multi Shot 2 skill. Sounds like a nice ability, although at a -5, it's very difficult to be useful (between poor weapon bonus and high enemy defence when you get better weapons)... but I'm wary about suggesting it be based off a fixed 20% like "Skewer" as that would make it feel very similar. Would it be based off the same attack roll, or rolled independently? Also, wouldn't it make it useless against fewer high HP targets (reverse problem with existing "Cleave")?

I have some suggestions for new skills, please tell me if any of it might actually work: For the human, maybe something like a "pass" skill, which lets you move to the space directly behind your opponent after attacking them. It could also be combined with skewer, perhaps if the passing attack skewers, and there is an enemy in front of you(not at the space you move to), you would be able to make the second attack at them. It might cause some thematic problems, though, but if you give a negative bonus to shield afterwards, it should not be used recklessly, but rather only as a means to get to spellcasters or ranged opponents before they can cause any problems. As for the dwarf, perhaps something like a spin attack. If the dwarf makes a sword attack(maybe make counters not count), and rolls a 10(or something), he makes an attack against all adjacent enemies(with or without the same roll). That might enable the dwarf to defeat multi-HP-opponents in a single round, if counters count, or, if they don't, let him not have to wait for his opponents to attack before he can do so himself if he finds himself in a crowd, because, I'll be honest, he doesn't seem like a very patient guy to me. I don't really have anything for the elf aside from a vague idea of every consecutive bow shot having some sort of bonus, probably with a limit of +3 or something, as it does take some time to completely adjust to the bow and being able to concentrate properly on the task. Also, doing anything else(moving, blocking, stabbing, using scrolls) would probably break her concentration. These techniques probably won't be able to be implemented in the game, but I'll post it anyway, because it might be useful.

> *Originally posted by **[TheElementalWar](/forums/979845/topics/1782164?page=1#12968022)**:* > These techniques probably won't be able to be implemented in the game, but I'll post it anyway, because it might be useful. > Thanks! Suggestions like this are always welcome.

> *Originally posted by **[RogueSword](/forums/979845/topics/1782164?page=1#12961853)**:* > A few issues with Cleave: > > 1. It's over-powered right now, at least vs. dragons. > 2. It's only of any use vs. 2+ hp monsters > 3. It doesn't do what people expect from cleave, which is to hit multiple targets. I'd say that **Cleave** is a powerful thing on it's own, but it's power is somewhat balnced just because it's only useful against 2HP monsters. In my opinion it emphasizes swordsman role as a damage powerhouse against single targets. I understand that it may be too strong against dragons, so I'd either make it half as probable against them (10 / 15 / 20 %). Or simply: remove the bonus chance from "Full Swing" all together. leave it at permanent 20%. Where I see problem is that his **Riposte**. It seems more fitting to Dwarf Brawler (fighting multiple targets.) so perhaps giving him that may be an option. One idea is to make it into another benefit of the "Full swing": +1 attack +1 defence, automaticly counterattack at 9 or 10 roll About name change for **Full swing**: it would depend on what exactly you want to make it into: The ''Engage" seems fitting for some sort of charge-like attack, maybe increased cleave chance, but lasting only a while. Also, does not imply single combat. I would rather see that name as bonus when you first attack an enemy. And personally, I just don't really like that name. *fite me :p* The "Duel" makes it clear: it's one-on-one and I believe it would be fitting for more general buffs but obviously apply only when there's no one else around. Some ideas for bonuses it could give (lvl.2 in brackets) : +1 attack +1 defence against this target. (+2 / +2) +2 Focus per missed meele instead of +1 (+1 attack passive) +1 attack and automatic counter-attack against miss. (+2 attack, +1 to counters) >Or we could leave Resilience and instead replace Bellow (call the worm) with Cleave, and let any hero Bellow (it would be a fame unlock). I don't like that. As much as I love the Worm when he appears (even if he chews my face off) I believe that making him appear on demand would make it OP against dragons and bosses while also take away some of the tension / risk-reward feeling from the fight.

> *Originally posted by **[Geraltmustdie234](/forums/979845/topics/1782164?page=1#12970331)**:* > > *Originally posted by **[RogueSword](/forums/979845/topics/1782164?page=1#12961853)**:* > >Or we could leave Resilience and instead replace Bellow (call the worm) with Cleave, and let any hero Bellow (it would be a fame unlock). > > I don't like that. > As much as I love the Worm when he appears (even if he chews my face off) I believe that making him appear on demand would make it OP against dragons and bosses while also take away some of the tension / risk-reward feeling from the fight. I haven't unlocked the dwarf yet so I'm not sure how Bellow works now. I think that a possible way to address this issue of Bellow becoming OP would be to limit the number of bellows per run (perhaps by using a similar mechanic to undo move) or put some conditions on it (e.g. need to be next to the pit you're summoning the worm)

> I haven't unlocked the dwarf yet so I'm not sure how Bellow works now. These are the current mechanics of Bellow as far as I can tell (correct me if I miss anything): 1. After reaching level 6, the dwarf can bellow by clicking any empty pit in the same room, summoning a worm to that pit. This counts as an action that does not end feats, and it automatically gets you spotted. You can bellow as many times as you want. 2. Bellow is not allowed in the caverns or tunnels. Bellow is not allowed if it has already been used this turn, if there is already a worm in the room, or if three worms have died this game (you monster!). 3. The worm will spawn and attack after all other enemies have taken their turn, and attack before other enemies on later turns. It will immediately retreat after spawning if there are no targets available. I do not know if another worm can spawn immediately after (but I've seen worms spawn immediately after another worm dies). 4. The worm will not spawn if at the end of the enemies' turn the pit is occupied by another monster, or if you have cleared the room. (But there's an older thread here that details a bug with clearing the room using a feat, don't know if that still works.) The worm will not spawn if you have moved to another room, but it will spawn if you've only left and reentered the room from a different side. 5. The summoned worm has the same stats (+7/+4) and behavior as normally spawned ones: it always spawns with 2 health, can be enlarged, chooses targets at random, draws aggro from enemies it attacks, and retreats if you leave the room. *Correction: it seems that from the second turn onward worms will attack before melee enemies, and only draw aggro from melee enemies.* *Correction: if the pit is blocked at the end of the bellowing turn then the worm will continue to spawn once the enemy moves off it.* *Update: now both natural and summoned worms remember their (shared) health between spawns.* *Update: worms will no longer attack the dwarf nor withdraw when next to him. Point 4 still applies.* I don't really find it OP against dragons, since I've once had all three worms summoned and killed in the same lair pit.

another good thing about bellow is that the worm will spawn precisely where you want that turn (there can only be 1 worm), meaning you wont get munched randomly and possibly have to waste a leap scroll.