Please let us know what you think about the elf's new Leap Attack skill.

Why can't we see a roll? It's just hit or miss now. But anyways, it looks like a good skill, nice little buff for my lovely elf. Presence was practically useless.

Yeah, it's a problem not having any indication of whether you can do it, how well you did it and how you got a feat from it. Also, what's the official rule for determining which tiles are affected by Leap Attack? For Flaming Shot you could describe it as "tile opposite the flame + all tiles adjacent to it not including flame", but perhaps there's a clearer wording for Leap Attack (which is the same in reverse). Also also: it doesn't seem to be awarding Focus even if you keep leaping the same enemy.

Feels really good, and it encourages a little more aggresssive play with her than I normally do currenrtly. Still, I'll probably just do against Rats and Snakes (with their defense penalties) or if I have a good Sword; or really desparate. I can see it being extremely useful when trapped in a corner of a room. I can understand the hiding of the rolls to streamline the overall move, but as some have noted, people would want to see each roll displayed.

We implemented Leap Attack in a simple manner so we could get feedback before doing a lot of UI work. It's sounding like we should add dice, but it would slow things down a bit. We should also add hover info so you can see what will be attacked - but it's a little tricky to do, so we didn't release with that. The rule is the same as the rule for flaming shot, which is admittedly difficult to put into words. But if you are used to which paths trigger a flaming shot, it's the same for leap attack.

when useing a leap scroll while killing a monster with leap attack and gettting feat mode from the kill. it makes you jump 2 more times. giving me no option to attack or to open chest or take armor/wepaon next to me.

> *Originally posted by **[RogueSword](/forums/979845/topics/1822051?page=1#13096148)**:* > ... rule is the same as the rule for flaming shot, which is admittedly difficult to put into words. One can pretty much guess quie accurately which will be affected; although something like the Bolt's blue hexes, would be more newbie friendly. Also, see note (3). A couple more notes: 1. Using Leap Scroll only targets creatures next to the Elf's starting location. This means landing next to Spores is actually safe - until it attacks you, or you punch it in the face -er- eye. 2. Leap attack will Disorient Slimes... which is either a useful bonus, or annoying complication, depending on position of everything else 3. The ability currently grants the heroes the ***ONLY*** option to consistently hit more than one target. Really love this feature. 4. This change makes the Elf super mobile; in defense and offense. 5. Using the Leap is noticably more fun than a Sword attack, even if both are tactically the same. Awesome work!

Regarding dice: having to watch rolls should be okay in this situation, since we already do that for explosions. If a dice roll affects the game then I want to see it. As for leap/shot paths, it might be simpler to have a short newbie warning like "You cannot hit two enemies with a leap scroll!" (strictly speaking, a three-tile leap) because that's the case that surprised me. But of course, that doesn't work for the same path in Flaming Shot. More notes that aren't exactly a reply to shift244: - For (2): ~~I find it to be more of a useful bonus.~~ *It's gone now!* Also, the Daily Hunt mode thread from long ago gave me the idea that slimes could be made to have different speeds to make avoiding them much harder, and I believe this would be an interesting combination with the elf. - (3): It depends on your definition of "consistently", as hitting two enemies is often too risky, and non-melee enemies are really hard to leap over without scrolls. Still, it lets you clear rooms faster without having to rely on chaining feats, so that's a win. And then there are some interesting interactions with feats: - (4): Where previously you could leap twice after scoring a feat, now leaping might attack and end that feat. This is vastly better except for slime rooms where ~~the free attack only gives you a chance to disorient, in which case it's slightly worse.~~ *the update completely negates this concern, but it's almost impossible to get into this slimy situation anyway.* - (5): Score a feat and bring it to a different exit. Now you can claim the feat bonus with a normal attack but not with a leap attack, because you're in stealth. (Edited for the update)

All in all, the new and improved elf is a lot of fun.

> *Originally posted by **[unekdoud](/forums/979845/topics/1822051?page=1#13096801)**:* > - (3): It depends on your definition of "consistently", as hitting two enemies is often too risky, and non-melee enemies are really hard to leap over without scrolls. Still, it lets you clear rooms faster without having to rely on chaining feats, so that's a win. Well, I basically mean that whenever the Elf moves from the edge of her hex (instead of its side), and there are 2 enemies occupying adjacent hexes in that direction, you get to roll attack against both of them. You still need to make the roll of course; but until now, no hero could make more than one attack at will (all additional attacks are triggered by random chance via roll results).

The main way that leap attack is more consistent than "hunker in crowds / share your fireball pain / call a worm / burst gas spores / spend a scroll / guarantee a feat" is that it can be used without caring about what enemies you're attacking. The additional attacks in the other cases aren't up to chance if you have the right setup, and getting multiple hits with leap attack requires setup too. ---- On a different leap-attack topic: I used my elf to jump onto an invisible specter, displacing it into the leap where it got hit. That probably counts as a rather powerful exploit, but perhaps there's some way to explain attacking something that's not there yet.

I totally love the leap attack and the added sound effects are just awesome. They are as funny as the dwarfs sound effects but not that much over the top (I mean a yodeling dwarf? C'mon ;D). I started not that long ago so I can't compare it to the old skill, but the leap attack is definately crucial for the Elves gameplay. Ofc most of the time you go for the bow to keep the risk at a minimum, but the Huntress can deal way more damage a lot faster with her leap attacks (with haste and leap scrolls you can do 6 leap attacks in a single turn!). At the same time the leap attack is just as a swordattack with a way lower risk of taking hits back, so it should always be preferred to the normal s-attack if possible. What I really like is the decision it gives to the player: The Huntress is pretty much all about keeping the risk at a minimum, but if needed she can take a higher risk for a way higher reward, that is a great character design!

I just did some more testing, with the following results: > On a different leap-attack topic: I used my elf to jump onto an invisible specter, displacing it into the leap where it got hit. This no longer happens. > Also also: it doesn't seem to be awarding Focus even if you keep leaping the same enemy. This still happens, and is a major reason to use the normal sword attack if your sword is weak.

That's right, you can use the focus with a leap attack, but you can't build up focus with it. Nonetheless I still see the leap attack more beneficial compared to building up focus, which needs your enemy to survive anyway. Lets say your enemy has a better shield bonus than your sword is, maybe his stat is 1-2 better than yours. That means your S/L-Attack has a hit chance of 36-45%, vice versa there is a 55-64% chance for your enemy to survive and attack you back. Depending on the stats that might be not much of a danger, but I think the Elf should take not a single def roll if there is any chance to avoid it. That is exactly what the leap attack does, as the 50% chance to disorient the enemy lowers the chances of taking a hit back to about 22-32% (just half the chances ofc). This bonus is massive and gets even better the bigger your enemies advantage is, so a bad sword is a really good reason for leaping instead of slashing. For such a low chance of taking an attack back you would need a better sword than your opponents shield of about +2/3, so a difference of 3-5 to the bad stats we assumed for the example. With a good sword the safety bonus of the disorientation gets smaller, but even with an advantage of +6 and a hit chance of 94% the disorientation lowers the chance of taking a hit back from 6% to 3%, that's still as strong as a bonus of +1 to your attack. So it's right, the leap attack doesn't kill quicker or better (not completely true because of the option to attack 2 monster at the same time), but it's an additional and precious layer of defense for our squishy elven lady.

For some reason, I underestimated the effect of disorientation (guess I never tested much with the new elf system). I did some simulations, and you're definitely right about leap attack being better even in a one-on-one. However, it does seem that the difference is smaller for weak swords, by the following reasoning: In comparing S and L attacks against a single melee enemy, the shield/trinkets you have acts as the same damage reduction multiplier in both cases. So neglecting any other factors (like the risk of getting wormed), you'd have to kill an enemy twice as fast with focus for it to beat disorientation, or in 25% fewer turns if leap attack isn't upgraded. Just as you mentioned, a strong sword like +6 advantage would be much better for leaps, but an extremely weak sword might drag the fight on long enough to make it even out. ~~My numbers show that (assuming d10 on leap) this nearly happens with the super unrealistic -7 sword (dis)advantage: 4 defense rolls on sword vs 7.7×50% rolls on leap. In comparison, a -2 advantage gives 1.23 rolls on S and 1.76×50% on L.~~ Edit: Those numbers are very slightly inaccurate, see below. ---- Some extra comments about this comparison: - I also tried it for double-attacking/leaping with haste scrolls. ~~This time, even the unupgraded skill at 25% wins in all cases.~~ Nope! - The leap attack gets a further advantage if your opponent has multiple HP, since focus resets when you land a hit. - Leap attack might even be stronger than evade in some situations with two enemies.

Thanks for these informations, very interesting. I think feats are another nice synergy, but sadly leap attack seems a bit bugged right now (see bug topic). Making 2 attacks at once double the chances to trigger a feat, if I get it right the chance must be around 19% for rolling at least one heroic strike in two attacks. I don't know how a possibly raised chance for massive hits add up to the chance - maybe a good sword could reach crazy chances? Might be interesting for chaining feats, as you also can use two feat boni at once, when you leap attack during a feat. On another note I just fought the Spectres and displace-leap-attacked one of them, so this still seems to happen. I didn't know where the 2nd was and jumped accidently into his hex while leap attacking the other one, then the displacement message appeared and both spectres were attacked. I tested further and killed the second one by displacement.

Okay, I think I have much more exact numbers now (famous last words). The issue was that I wasn't letting those battles run for long enough, and the worst-case scenarios can take ages with the leap attacks. Assuming leap attacks roll d10 and score feats correctly, you can beat Leap Attack II with a sword attack if your advantage is -6 or worse: S: 2.9 defense rolls L: roughly (6.1 to 6.5) ×50%. When fighting dragons (9+ to heroic strike), this goes down to around -8. You can beat Leap Attack I with the sword attack if your advantage is -2 or worse: S: 1.2 defense rolls L: 1.7 ×75%. If you're using haste scrolls then it's not possible to beat Leap Attack II except at -9 or so, but it is possible to beat Leap Attack I with a -5/-6 advantage or below (and similarly for dragons).

> *Originally posted by **[unekdoud](/forums/979845/topics/1822051?page=1#13133324)**:* > Okay, I think I have much more exact numbers now (famous last words). The issue was that I wasn't letting those battles run for long enough, and the worst-case scenarios can take ages with the leap attacks. > > Assuming leap attacks roll d10 and score feats correctly, you can beat Leap Attack II with a sword attack if your advantage is -6 or worse: > S: 2.9 defense rolls > L: roughly (6.1 to 6.5) ×50%. > When fighting dragons (9+ to heroic strike), this goes down to around -8. > > You can beat Leap Attack I with the sword attack if your advantage is -2 or worse: > S: 1.2 defense rolls > L: 1.7 ×75%. > > If you're using haste scrolls then it's not possible to beat Leap Attack II except at -9 or so, but it is possible to beat Leap Attack I with a -5/-6 advantage or below (and similarly for dragons). These numbers do not take into account: 1. Shield bonus. A greater shield bonus reduces the advantage of enemies being Disoriented. With a weaker Shield, Leap grants far better protection than even Evade. 2. Positioning. Leap as often removes the Elf from being surrounded, greatly improving her survival than Evade in some cases. 3. Similarly, at times, Leap is not an option as it endangers her more than staying put.

> *Originally posted by **[shift244](/forums/979845/topics/1822051?page=1#13133471)**:* > These numbers do not take into account: Bear in mind that I only calculated them for a single melee enemy which the elf jumps over or sword attacks repeatedly, even if this is clearly suboptimal play. Shield bonus: mentioned above. This comparison is for leap vs normal swords, and regardless of whatever shield you're holding, spending two turns against a disoriented enemy should be equivalent to one turn with a non-disoriented one. Thus in terms of damage taken, the "advantage of enemies being Disoriented" is always 50% (or 25%). I don't think Evade is ever optimal against a single melee enemy unless you're basically invincible (take a +9 shield and fight a beetle, etc.) Positioning: If you can continue from the Leap Attack to kiting enemies then that would be an obvious strategic choice. I don't know whether you'd still prefer Leap Attack over Evade against one melee and one archer, or two archers, or even one melee and one roper. (i.e. cases in which you're not getting surrounded but might still want to relocate) Danger: I'm not sure about this point, as it might be worth the risk to take dodge chances instead of evade chances if it's only for one turn. Even if Leap isn't an option, Leap with a scroll might be.

> *Originally posted by **[unekdoud](/forums/979845/topics/1822051?page=1#13133611)**:* > I don't think Evade is ever optimal against a single melee enemy unless you're basically invincible (take a +9 shield and fight a beetle, etc.) Strictly, no; I agree with you. Only if you consider the Elf might relatiate against other potential attacks (like Fireballs particularly), then Evade may be preferable. > Positioning: If you can continue from the Leap Attack to kiting enemies then that would be an obvious strategic choice. I don't know whether you'd still prefer Leap Attack over Evade against one melee and one archer, or two archers, or even one melee and one roper. (i.e. cases in which you're not getting surrounded but might still want to relocate) I find it usually supeerior to use Evade against multiple unavoidable threats, simply because of the bonus to rolls, and the counterattack on misses/Dodges. Maneuvering around 2 ranged foes (moreso if one is a Roper and/or caster) is a real pain, and usually includes too much risk to consider. Better to attempt quick conclusions in all cases (i.e. via scrolls). > Danger: I'm not sure about this point, as it might be worth the risk to take dodge chances instead of evade chances if it's only for one turn. Even if Leap isn't an option, Leap with a scroll might be. This is more about making the Leap attack into a square with more threats, vs staying put with less threats - i.e. keeping her in the spot with the least open attacks possible (ideally none).

Do you like the disorientation element of the leap attack? Or would you prefer an attack bonus instead?

Yes, I love the diorientation and prefer it by far compared to an attack bonus (ofc the option to attack two enemies at the same time is already one of the best attack boni in the game). In some rooms or with a better sword than bow the leap attack already is better than attacking with the bow, but this shouldn't happen too easily. Right now you just need a sword better by +1 than your bow to have equal chances, that's not really much but as tradeoff the leap attack has a little more risk when used aggressively.

> *Originally posted by **[RogueSword](/forums/979845/topics/1822051?page=1#13135391)**:* > Do you like the disorientation element of the leap attack? Or would you prefer an attack bonus instead? The Disorientation effect from the Leap Attack is amazing - to the point, where it may seem a little Overpowered. Correct me I'm wrong, but it seems this ability alone is worth not building up focus (in many cases, for me). However, I see that in later games with 20+ Dragons, this may be the sole equalizer for the Elf compared to the Human and Dwarf. She still (anecdotally) feels to fare poorly despite of Evade, Ranged Counterstrike and Disorient. Maybe because it against Dragons, being as aggressive as possible is better than trying to be defensive.

With tonight's release, we fixed the bug where leap attacks were using a d12 instead of d10. (Sorry?)