Right now, the level maps always have the same layout. Only the monsters and loot change. Would you prefer a system where the layout is different each game, so you don't know how the rooms connect? To see where a room's exit leads, you'd have to make your way through the room. You'd have to explore to find the level exit, and sometimes you'd hit a dead end and have to go back. Once you explored an area, it would stay on the map ... until the next game where the maps regenerate to something new. (The maps would would look basically like they do now, but the way the rooms connect would be different each game, and the connections would not be revealed until you reach them. The level exit would probably also be in a random location, so you'd really have no idea of the best way to get there.) What do you think?

It sounds like a fine idea, but if what you're thinking of is essentially applying the randomization of the dragon rooms to the normal map, things would change things quite dramatically - there'd be no possibility of doing the popular strategy of switching entrances and peppering the monster while hidden. You'd have to come up with a whole new way of randomizing the map.

> *Originally posted by **[dargndorp](/forums/979845/topics/1822612?page=1#13097787)**:* > It sounds like a fine idea, but if what you're thinking of is essentially applying the randomization of the dragon rooms to the normal map, things would change things quite dramatically No, it would not be like the multi-lair. There would be a level view like now. However, you'd have to explore it to see how all the rooms connect.

It sounds really very nice, but if we can't use strat with entrance switching, it'll make the game really harder. Maybe all randomized rooms and connections should be visible from the start, idk.

> *Originally posted by **[Stepikus](/forums/979845/topics/1822612?page=1#13099077)**:* > It sounds really very nice, but if we can't use strat with entrance switching, it'll make the game really harder. Maybe all randomized rooms and connections should be visible from the start, idk. Entrance switching would still be a big part of the game, although maybe not quite as much. If you found a room with an entrance on the other side that you'd prefer to enter from, then you could probably still do it ... you just wouldn't know exactly how to get to the other side of the room, and it's possible that there might not actually be a way to do it. For instance, that exit might lead to a room that's a dead end. But once you've scouted out the level, entrance swapping would be just as much a part of the game as it is now.

I don't think you should throw out those fine-tuned maps completely, and would like to see them remain playable within the game. I assume with random generation eventually there'd be maps that go offscreen and you have to drag to pan them, but one wild idea is to keep the existing map, remove all paths and replace room exits with colored/numbered portals. You could up the disorientation factor by having the portal connections change randomly within a game. Make it a new biome, called the Hall of Mirrors! Add mirage copies of monsters to maps! Okay, maybe that one has too much potential to mess with players' heads.

> *Originally posted by **[unekdoud](/forums/979845/topics/1822612?page=1#13099511)**:* > I don't think you should throw out those fine-tuned maps completely, and would like to see them remain playable within the game. > > I assume with random generation eventually there'd be maps that go offscreen and you have to drag to pan them, but one wild idea is to keep the existing map, remove all paths and replace room exits with colored/numbered portals. You could up the disorientation factor by having the portal connections change randomly within a game. Make it a new biome, called the Hall of Mirrors! Add mirage copies of monsters to maps! Okay, maybe that one has too much potential to mess with players' heads. That's sort of what we have in mind (but not portals that change). The rooms would remain in the same places (and all on one screen), but the way they connect to each other (and maybe the location of the exit) would be randomized.

> *Originally posted by **[RogueSword](/forums/979845/topics/1822612?page=1#13099518)**:* > That's sort of what we have in mind (but not portals that change). The rooms would remain in the same places (and all on one screen), but the way they connect to each other (and maybe the location of the exit) would be randomized. So basically: 1. All rooms stay in the same place. 2. With each room having at least 1 entrance, and 1 exit. 3. But a room may have more than 1 exit. 4. Plus, you never start from bottom left and work to the top right (or if you still do, the route is never always through the same paths) That about sums it?

> *Originally posted by **[shift244](/forums/979845/topics/1822612?page=1#13101096)**:* > > *Originally posted by **[RogueSword](/forums/979845/topics/1822612?page=1#13099518)**:* > > That's sort of what we have in mind (but not portals that change). The rooms would remain in the same places (and all on one screen), but the way they connect to each other (and maybe the location of the exit) would be randomized. > > So basically: > 1. All rooms stay in the same place. Yes, although maybe there's an extra room, where each map is missing one random room. Like maybe the "master map" for the caverns has 7 rooms, but actual maps will only have 6 of those 7. > 2. With each room having at least 1 entrance, and 1 exit. Yes, at least one entrance/exit. A "dead end" room will have just one entrance/exit. > 3. But a room may have more than 1 exit. Yes. > 4. Plus, you never start from bottom left and work to the top right (or if you still do, the route is never always through the same paths) You'd probably always start in the same place. But the way the rooms connect would vary, and you would not know where a room exit leads until you reach that room exit. Also, the location of the level exits (eg "To the Mines") would vary, and you would not know where it is until you reach it. > > That about sums it? Yes. Imagine the way the game works now, except that the network of passages is varied. And instead of just covering the room contents with fog, we cover everything with fog and only reveal rooms and passages once you have actually explored them.

> *Originally posted by **[RogueSword](/forums/979845/topics/1822612?page=1#13101113)**:* > Yes. Imagine the way the game works now, except that the network of passages is varied. And instead of just covering the room contents with fog, we cover everything with fog and only reveal rooms and passages once you have actually explored them. Sounds cool. It does make it impossible to plan. One of the things I tend to do now, is to take the safest rooms to clear, do down as far as I can, then return to clear the earlier rooms with better equipment for their potions and scrolls. This would make such planning only if randomness allows it. I'm ll for giving things a go however. Who knows how many might like it? Well, maybe not the strategists...

> *Originally posted by **[shift244](/forums/979845/topics/1822612?page=1#13101421)**:* > > *Originally posted by **[RogueSword](/forums/979845/topics/1822612?page=1#13101113)**:* > > Yes. Imagine the way the game works now, except that the network of passages is varied. And instead of just covering the room contents with fog, we cover everything with fog and only reveal rooms and passages once you have actually explored them. > > Sounds cool. It does make it impossible to plan. One of the things I tend to do now, is to take the safest rooms to clear, do down as far as I can, then return to clear the earlier rooms with better equipment for their potions and scrolls. This would make such planning only if randomness allows it. I'm ll for giving things a go however. Who knows how many might like it? Well, maybe not the strategists... > Choosing the safest room to clear would be the same because you'd be able to see all the rooms you have access to. However you would not always be able to take the shortest path to the Ruins because you won't know what the shortest path is. But yes, there being less strategy because you have less information is a concern of ours.

> *Originally posted by **[RogueSword](/forums/979845/topics/1822612?page=1#13101989)**:* > Choosing the safest room to clear would be the same because you'd be able to see all the rooms you have access to. However you would not always be able to take the shortest path to the Ruins because you won't know what the shortest path is. But yes, there being less strategy because you have less information is a concern of ours. Pretty much the point of "less planning", in that, you react more to the new information than having the knoweldge of the route to take. Either way, it encourages differnt play styles. Maybe include a new scroll (you start with, but do not pick up) or ability, to once per game, "reveal map", showing the tunnels that got randomized. So of the 3 dungeon maps, one may be revealed to allow such planning. Even then, it can randomize to a point where the key rooms force a way forward (which is not necessarily a bad thing).

> *Originally posted by **[shift244](/forums/979845/topics/1822612?page=1#13102730)**:* > Maybe include a new scroll (you start with, but do not pick up) or ability, to once per game, "reveal map", showing the tunnels that got randomized. Revealing the entire map is usually overpowered. Taking a page from other roguelikes, you could have "dungeon sense" that reveals a random room at regular intervals. Depending on implementation, even revealing just the exit and the room adjacent to it can make a big difference. > Even then, it can randomize to a point where the key rooms force a way forward (which is not necessarily a bad thing). The other relevant game element here is teleportation to a random room. While that may add unnecessary complexity to the game and risk for players, it does reduce the chance of getting stuck in a bottleneck of difficult rooms.

> *Originally posted by **[unekdoud](/forums/979845/topics/1822612?page=1#13102773)**:* > Revealing the entire map is usually overpowered. Taking a page from other roguelikes, you could have "dungeon sense" that reveals a random room at regular intervals. Depending on implementation, even revealing just the exit and the room adjacent to it can make a big difference. I mean, revealing the tunnels only, not the room content - pretty much like what we have now, but a once per game ability to reveal tunnel locations. Unless you mean that, that is still over powered. > The other relevant game element here is teleportation to a random room. While that may add unnecessary complexity to the game and risk for players, it does reduce the chance of getting stuck in a bottleneck of difficult rooms. We do have teleporting already - the tunnels feature (alright, some name changes are in order) drops you in a random room in a next floor/map.