Is there rationale for this besides effectively lowering the scrolls and potions available before entering the lair? I can't see one.

I also feel compelled to point out that, once again, you made this material change in the middle of a tourney rather than at the beginning...

The point of tunnels was to a) provide more ways to navigate the dungeon and b) create a different style of play. The first purpose is served just as well by short tunnels. And I don't think the gameplay associated with the tunnels is worth ~5 rooms per game. But if you think the gameplay in the tunnels is fun and want more of it, let us know. Sorry for releasing it mid-week.

I think I've mentioned before that I tend to use tunnels as a way to stock up before the dragon fight, rather than as an exploration guide or getting around bottlenecks. So shortening the tunnels definitely gets rid of this silly grind, but the reduced resources (2 tunnel rooms ≈ 1 potion + 3 common scrolls + 0.23 rare scrolls, minus whatever you spend) make the dragon fight and thus the whole game significantly more difficult. Also, the gameplay in the tunnels *is* fun for me, as watching slimes move is a nice respite from worrying about the menacing dungeon hordes.

> *Originally posted by **[unekdoud](/forums/979845/topics/1832313?page=1#13135405)**:* > I think I've mentioned before that I tend to use tunnels as a way to stock up before the dragon fight, rather than as an exploration guide or getting around bottlenecks. > > So shortening the tunnels definitely gets rid of this silly grind, but the reduced resources (2 tunnel rooms ≈ 1 potion + 3 common scrolls + 0.23 rare scrolls) make the dragon fight and thus the whole game significantly more difficult. > > Also, the gameplay in the tunnels *is* fun for me, as watching slimes move is a nice respite from worrying about the menacing dungeon hordes. What do you think the right number of rooms is per game, purely for the variety/fun factor?

For me it's the same as for unekdoud: I like the tunnels but rarely (or never) use them to navigate. Most of the time I clear the whole ruins even before I use the tunnel from the cavern, just to stock up. On rare occasion I use them as option if there is a really hard room I can not avoid in the level below or when my equipment is bad, as you can find useful gear inside the tunnel in that case. I wouldn't use the tunnel before I can use the normal way, this can too easily lead to a dead end. I also like the gameplay, its just something different and much more focused on positioning and movement. Another point is the difficulty, for the elf the tunnels aren't much of a problem, but the other two might struggle, I think the human has the biggest problems (no protection against all the spores, bad against ropers and the least mobile hero), so he can really suffer to an unexpected long tunnel. I think the tunnels would benefit from less randomness, 2-3 rooms should be long enough, 1-3 would also be ok just a little more random. The number of rooms shouldn't be too much, 4 is my absolute max, as 5 would be just as much as a whole level (caverns have 5 rooms). On the other hand the tunnels are all about risk and randomness, so they are fine as they are. Still I think just a little less randomness wouldn't hurt and if they are supposed to be 1-x rooms, I would consider to just lower the chances for another room for each room before (ie 75% for a second room, 50% for a third, 25% for a fourth, maybe at least 10% after that).

I feel the old system of at least 2 rooms per tunnel seems just slightly long. As for variety: * 4 rooms should be the absolute maximum for each tunnel. I know it's now a 0.8% chance to exceed that, but I'd like that probability to be actually 0. * A 1-room tunnel is good as an occasional pleasant surprise, rather than it being overwhelmingly common. * Should the tunnels get different lengths? I find it weird that they have different loot but equivalent gameplay. Maybe it would be better to have a probability table or a simpler rule, e.g. each tunnel is 1–3 rooms plus 30% chance for one extra room (once).

> *Originally posted by **[MisterSinister](/forums/979845/topics/1832313?page=1#13135819)**:* > For me it's the same as for unekdoud: I like the tunnels but rarely (or never) use them to navigate. Most of the time I clear the whole ruins even before I use the tunnel from the cavern, just to stock up. [omitted] > > I also like the gameplay, its just something different and much more focused on positioning and movement. [omitted] > > On the other hand the tunnels are all about risk and randomness, so they are fine as they are. Still I think just a little less randomness wouldn't hurt and if they are supposed to be 1-x rooms, I would consider to just lower the chances for another room for each room before (ie 75% for a second room, 50% for a third, 25% for a fourth, maybe at least 10% after that). Agree with all of the above - I think 1 room only is a bit too short and I actually do not mind 5 rooms (or even longer) though as per MisterSinister I think there should be a point when adding extra rooms becames highly unlikely. Also -not sure if it is already the case- the lenght could be variable between the two tunnels. The first one is connected a surface level (we cannot have worms) to a mid-level so maybe 1-4 (maybe you just got lost) is justified while the second tunnel takes you deeper so 2-5 (or maybe more) could be reasonable.

I'm in unekdoud's camp, I consider the 1-room tunnels to be too short.

Thanks for everyone's feedback. We are going to change it so Caverns tunnels are 1-2 rooms long and Mines tunnels are 1-3 rooms long.