> *Originally posted by **[armzzz](/forums/984525/topics/1831965?page=13#13380712)**:* > Holding on the mayo would make me weaker for long time, for some small bonus in the future.. unless it is 2-3 times more between 3 tiers or so, it doesnt seem to be worth it to save mayo. > > Otherwise, the worst about sadistic dif seems to be the crippling of blood and TM. Specifically blood cuts my ADV stats progress by 60% or more. > > One thing I was wondering - when do you hard-cap EC/MC etc.? Mayo is always your most limiting feature, so you won't be able to save up so much that you can't spend it later. Going from tier 2 to tier 5 doubles or triples most card bonuses, so I guess by your own standards it's worth it. Slower blood does almost nothing to your adventure stat gain if you're online most of the time. You get around a billion (combined) stats a day from cube boosts if you're online, running a lot of respawn, and can hit floor 1150 (slightly beyond you at the moment, but 500m is still a lot). You get what, 20m combined P/T from iron pill every day? It feels like a lot because it's a solid number you see in front of you, but by late evil it's already worth almost nothing compared to passive cube gains or spending a day or two of experience in adventure stats when you need some extra oomph.

> *Originally posted by **[armzzz](/forums/984525/topics/1831965?page=13#13380712)**:* > Holding on the mayo would make me weaker for long time, for some small bonus in the future.. unless it is 2-3 times more between 3 tiers or so, it doesnt seem to be worth it to save mayo. > > Otherwise, the worst about sadistic dif seems to be the crippling of blood and TM. Specifically blood cuts my ADV stats progress by 60% or more. Higher tier cards give quite a bit more, and chunkers require quite a bit of mayo for a big bonus making it a bit more effective than normal cards. Like sancdar said iron pills only look good but are worth surprisingly little by the time you jump to sadistic anyway. It does suck to have to abandon them once more because even small amount is often better than nothing as you continue to pile it up but if it is at the cost of lower PP and losing sadistic bonuses it is definitely not worth the trade. > One thing I was wondering - when do you hard-cap EC/MC etc.? I don't know how representative it is but for me I capped energy around west world and magic when I reached it hungers. It depend on what items you equip quite a bit, my gold drops loadout makes me drop under 6 E+18 and my quest drops loadout makes magic drop slightly (8.8 E+18).

So TLDR is : dont use iron pill, dont use mayo. Great. :) What are the hard-caps exactly? When do I know to stop leveling NGUs, or dumping EXP into EC or EP ?

Well, it's not a strict "don't use" but maybe set the bar higher for mayo, like only using rarity "good" or higher. It will give you a decent amount of bonus since they are the more efficient cards anyway and you should be able to start building up your mayo for teh big chonkers and possibly lower rarity cards when their tier reaches higher levels. It's not like you can't make use of these, those advices are just based on how much more potent cards become when their tier rises so you get more bonus from the same amount of mayo and using even lower rarity cards nets you more than low tier and high rarity. Hard cap for NGUs is 1E+9 (billion) levels (for each difficulty's NGU separately), for energy and magic cap it is 9 E+18. For the base energy/magic cap I ended up growing them to 6,375,000,000,000 and 5,516,250,000,000 respectively and bars to 350,000,000 for both. It might not be exactly optimal since my current set vastly overshoots the hard cap, wasting some of its potential but not going down too far with other loadouts is definitely a plus.

I think I will give up on any progress, and just rebirth randomly if I have time to waste. There is no point in playing now. Cube is Tier 9, 5.7B/5.6B P/T , and still I cant even autokill Back To School. Guess I am done with this game untill there is some update that will speed this up.

Sadistic is definitely slow, especially reaching the first zone and even after that the equipment no longer makes a massive difference in terms of adventure stats, I don't know how you are supposed to get to back to school without heavy investment (either into the 3 resources or into adventure stats directly, probably both), if you don't enjoy daily rebirths with unnoticeable progress for months it's probably not a bad idea to shelve the game for a while. Before doing that though, try to set things so you get the maximum amount of offline progress from this so that when you come back at least you will have a lot to work with. Things in daycare (either ultra long items like the pendant/looty or macguffins since they are all fine with staying a few weeks in it), setting your energy and magic to level up multiple NGU entries at once, put your resource 3 either on hack hack or on multiple hacks (adventure, drop chance, PP, exp, QP...). If you have PP and QP lying around, try to spend those on mayo speed as well. I recently lost my save and had to "fix" it with a save from february as the base and among the things I noticed was that my cube grew a lot, I had several hundred of each mayo, as well as quite a bit of PP, QP, exp and AP. In my case it was all lower than what I had gained by playing but if you are "pausing" the game for now it is all offline progress that will benefit you when you come back at some point.

This thread has been a fantastic resource as I've progressed, so if Armzzz is taking a break I guess I'll ask some questions of my own. I have been in sadistic mode for about two weeks now, have all the early perk and quirk pickups including mayo and card recycling and just got big chonkers. My question is about the suggested ratio for R3 compared to E/M. I've been sticking to the 3:1 E:M ratio suggested by the exp cost out of ease. Doing the same for R3 would result in 100,000:33,333:1 E:M:R3. However, given that wishes treat all three resources equally, it seems to me that focusing much more heavily on R3 would be sensible, maybe more like 30,000:10,000:1 or even finally giving Magic a bit more weight with 20,000:10,000:1. Obviously I'll hit the hardcap for E/M cap at some point and that will change the math again, but for now what ratio do people suggest?

Wishes treating the resources equally would be the reason to keep things at EXP ratio. I think most people do lean harder on R3 though, because hacks are very useful.

@Shibby I wish I knew how far should I level E / M , so that with the current end-game gear I would be on 9e18 E/M total or so. That would give me good pointer as to how much EXP should be put into E/M, and when to start throwing all on R3 or adv stats. Too lazy to do the math yet, I guess. As for my progress... I came back after a while, and realized I have L100 A7x and Supreme Looty sitting in my daycare. Also thrown in some items from Back to School that have grown quite a bit. Big surprise was the infinity cube - that offline growth is no joke. TLDR I've maxed Back To School set, plus equiping L92 A7, L99 Supreme, L0 Lootz and A8. Got few items from West World for daycare/pit leveling, but far from having all - it's still a pain to even snipe those (10% drop from boss). Infinity cube is now 7.3B P/T. Also I've shifted tag focus on NGUs, so now I'm on 291% eNGU 197% mNGU - the difference seems 1 tier only which seems big (T5 eNGU, T4 mNGU). Together with Back To School set bonus this allowed me to soft-cap all sad NGUs except PP (adv 56k drop 1k mNGU 1.3k PP 324 ygg 107k exp 39k TM 2k eNGU 3.2k advB 1.5k) With that I have 18.9PP per kill, throwing all into improving major/minor QP rewards plus few generic eP/mP 4. Major quests now give me 2111QP, minor auto 177QP - done generic eP/mP 3, finishing eC/mC 3. After that I should put more QP into card tiers, probably. For EXP I'm throwing 2x1.17B each rebirth into E+M, to keep them on same level (1:4:1 ratio), the rest goes into R3 (1:4:2). So I've 2.1e18 E 1.9e18 M , and 1.7e10 R3. Even with that TM leveling is still painfully slow, so I have once in 7 rebirths or so do big multi-hour push to level TM to around 4k, and use bank savings for next rebirths until it drops below 1k. Blood seems to stabilize on caping 3 rituals normally, now able to get e12 amounts of blood (though it's still all useless except drop/gold bonus, and maybe 3-4 levels to all mcgufs - compared to Fruit A that gives me 700 levels now). Hacks are around 3k L in hack-hack, 2.4k wish hack. Wishes on 3 slots, now doing atk/adv 4 + eP 5. I still have many cards T3 or lower. So cast only Okay+ T4+ , and Great+ T3 which I need - this keeps my mayo reserves around 100-150 each. At this point, probably the main choice is where to put EXP. Resources, or adv stats?

> *Originally posted by **[armzzz](/forums/984525/topics/1831965?page=14#13406290)**:* > @Shibby I wish I knew how far should I level E / M , so that with the current end-game gear I would be on 9e18 E/M total or so. That would give me good pointer as to how much EXP should be put into E/M, and when to start throwing all on R3 or adv stats. Too lazy to do the math yet, I guess. I stopped at 2 billion epow, 14 trillion ecap. You can tweak up or down depending on how strong your guffs are, but there's a general ballpark for hardcaps at current endgame gear. People who actually do guff runs are stopping closer to 10 trillion, I think.

I'm currently a bit above 10 E+12 base magic cap (following the 1:37.5k:1.875 ratio) and it seems like I am not dipping under the hard cap anymore when switching sets so it sounds like 10 trillion is about right. As a result I am thinking about stopping cap and bars once more (I picked them up fairly recently because my quest drops set was sending me back to around half cap for magic). For the difference between energy and magic NGU speed for cards it's not just the tier difference, it seems like the magic NGU cards are slightly weaker than the energy ones. > At this point, probably the main choice is where to put EXP. Resources, or adv stats? At this point I am enclined to say that it depends on your cube, I settled on having my "base" adventure stats (from the exp screen) roughly equal to the cube's stats, this allowed me to mostly ignore the adventure stats of equipments and put a bigger focus on whatever the loadout is supposed to boost (NGU+hack for example). NGU, Hacks and wishes all benefit greatly from you continuing to pump exp into them but if you feel that you could reach the next zone quickly with adventure stats go for it since most of sadistic zones have pretty good accessories.

One question regarding respawn gear - how many item slots do you dedicate to respawn ? So far I've only used the ring during Quest drop loadout, but not during Wish or NGU loadouts.

I don't understand why you wouldn't use as much respawn as possible in your quest loadout, unless you don't have enough slots to wear all of your quest drop gear and all of your respawn gear. In wish gear, I use as many as possible because wishes are generally kind of weak as a focus and still get done at a decent rate even when you're only using half your accessory slots and keeping a lot of resources in other areas. Respawn for NGU loadout depends on my relative strength. Where I am now, I just switched from 8 respawn to 7 respawn so I could hold BB on NGU Magic NGU. Where I was near the start of Sadistic, NGU loadout had no respawn items and used double pots, because I treated NGU days like hack days.

For respawn gear the rule of thumb is definitely "either none or as many as you can afford to equip". The reason is because the various bonuses multiply each others, which sounds similar to other bonuses but in this case it's numbers between 0 and 1 and not numbers above 1 so the effect can be a bit strange. Since you are in sadistic, let's assume that you have NGU levels high enough to get you 60%, 90% and 90%. 0.6 \* 0.9 \* 0.9 = 0.486 (or 48.6%) Add in 90% from perk and wish as well as 95% from the clock set: 0.486 \* 0.9 \* 0.9 \* 0.95 = 0.373977 (more or less 37.4%) At that point you should already notice that the decrease is slowing down quite a bit from what your brain would assume if you didn't know math too well. And as it goes down only small multipliers (which means big bonuses in this case) really affect the outcome a lot, the rest is nice but it only nudges the result. WIth five -10% and one -5% our brain kind of expects that we divide what was there before by over half (like if it was additive), multiplicative bonuses have an even bigger effect than additive bonuses when they go in the positive so it's easy to assume a similar effect when it's in fact the opposite. If you remove the 0.6 from the normal NGU non-equipment bonuses don't even reach 0.6 (close but not quite). And the only place where you can get a big bonus to respawn is with equipments because it is additive among all equipments before being multiplicative as a bonus. That aspect means diminishing returns to having many items with the same effect for every single bonus except respawn where it is exactly the reverse and having more items with that bonus mean a significantly bigger overall effect. Of course it's still your own decision to use them or not, I personally don't like them so I avoid them but putting as many as possible is a valid way to get a whole lot more progress in itopod and quests.

So far I've used only 1 respawn item in Quest drop loadout: 1) wish: 11 wish 3 hacks (dividing R3 50/50 wish and hacks) 2) ngu: 11 ngu 3 hacks (all R3 hacks) 3) quest: 6 quest drop 1 respawn 7 wish I don't see wishes as weak. If only card tiers, this seems important to get. But it is true, that 50% of wish gear can give me like 80% of effect that I would get with full wish gear. From stat breakdown: 1) no resp item = 38.36% (1.53 sec from 4) 2) 1 resp item = 32.22% (1.29 sec from 4) 3) 3 resp items = 24.55% (0.98 sec from 4) 4) 5 resp items = 19.18% (0.77 sec from 4) 5) 7 resp items = 16.11% (0.64 sec from 4) So using wish 8 respawn 5 hacks 1 will double my PP gain, while removing 3 wish and 2 hack items. Looking at this, I will definitely use all respawn items when doing quest drop runs. And probably move to the 8 / 5 / 1 model for wish loadout ( or even 9 / 5 / 0 )..

Don't forget to add 0.8 to all of those for the idle attack. With your data it would mean as the time per kill: 0: 1.53 + 0.8 = 2.33 5: 0.77 + 0.8 = 1.57 (+48% kills) 7: 0.64 + 0.8 = 1.44 (+61% kills) So even with all 7 you don't quite get twice as many kills but an increase of 48% or 61% of your PP income does sound pretty juicy if it doesn't sacifice too much.

I see - is there any way to reduce the 0.8 delay from idle attack? It is now pretty much doubling the respawn time. For the quest drop loadout - if I use 6 quest drop items + 7 respawn items, it leaves me 1 item to boost whatever I do with resources. Maybe I can start leveling TM during quest drop runs, because wish speed would be abysmal.

No, although some people use a script or an autoclicker to manually attack every 0.8 seconds instead. Keep in mind that the tower isn't your only source of PP/XP; if I were to go from 1.53 second respawn to 0.64, despite the 61% increase in daily kills it would be a 37% increase in PP and 13% increase in XP due to income from other sources.

Update: Autokilling IT HUNGERS easy version. For progress, I put pp/qp into resource leveling and card tiers. So far majority of cards went into E/M NGU and ADV stats, now it's time to catch up tiers with other cards. Question - how much important is increasing the boss multiplier in SADISTIC from the 1.20 ? There is perk and quirk for it - is it worth it getting those? Also I've recently hit the consumables jackpot, so maybe it's time I start spending all the potions I have. Should I do the wish-days, boosting E M and R3 and pouring all into wishes? What other important consumables are there (exc. butter for QP)?

> *Originally posted by **[armzzz](/forums/984525/topics/1831965?page=14#13428112)**:* > Question - how much important is increasing the boss multiplier in SADISTIC from the 1.20 ? There is perk and quirk for it - is it worth it getting those? Huh... I've got a level in that bonus from the wishes but none from anywhere else yet. (I don't think I had even noticed that quirks had it, actually.) Anyway... Well, it looks like we're talking about the "boss power bonus" part of the rebirth page. The line is worth X^Y where X is that 1.20 (default) and Y is the highest boss beaten in the current run. Let's use boss 200 for example here: 1.20^200 = 6.859e15 and 1.201^200 = 8.102e15. So that one level makes that line on the rebirth page worth 1.1812 times as much. That's a 18.12% increase. (Of course, the size of this increase will look different if we check it for different bosses. I just changed it to Y=190 and that came out as a 17.15% increase, and I also checked Y=210 and that came out as a 19.12% increase.) Let's see what else I can see while I'm playing with numbers in a spreadsheet here... 1.209^200 = 3.057e16 and 1.210^200 = 3.606e16. So when you pick up your 10th level in this bonus that's a 17.98% increase over what you had with 9 levels. And by that point you're also at a 425.81% increase compared to when you had 0 levels in the bonus.

> *Originally posted by **[armzzz](/forums/984525/topics/1831965?page=14#13428112)**:* > Question - how much important is increasing the boss multiplier in SADISTIC from the 1.20 ? There is perk and quirk for it - is it worth it getting those? The effect is subtle at first glance but it grows increasingly important as you need to unlock further and further zones. For example, with boss 100 as the base: 1.20^100 = 82,817,975 1.25^100 = 4,909,093,465 1.40^100 = 410,018,608,884,990 As you can probably tell the difference can end up being pretty impactful, my current 1.40 means that the same boss 100 gives me an extra 6 (well, 6.695) bosses worth of stats compared to 1.20. You will probably not notice the effect of those bonuses right away unless you do the math, especially if you get one level at a time. > Also I've recently hit the consumables jackpot, so maybe it's time I start spending all the potions I have. > Should I do the wish-days, boosting E M and R3 and pouring all into wishes? What other important consumables are there (exc. butter for QP)? You would probably do the reverse, NGU and/or hack days while doing wishes normally. The reasoning being that wishes would require all of the consumables at the same time to get a similar result, but even then because of how wishes work (often either long levelling times or short where the bonus could make you hit the "minimum") you can end up not noticing the result much. I tend to use butter for QP personally but there is a case to be made for mayo for example, you could get the effect affect the fruits twice (preferably with poop as well) with a single use of the consumable once in a while. I'm probably not the best to tell you hat to get and how to use in terms of consumable because I am a hopeless hoarder (except poop and beast butter) so my consumables are just piling up for no reason.

> *Originally posted by **[slay0mithos](/forums/984525/topics/1831965?page=14#13428471)**:* > > *Originally posted by **[armzzz](/forums/984525/topics/1831965?page=14#13428112)**:* > > Question - how much important is increasing the boss multiplier in SADISTIC from the 1.20 ? There is perk and quirk for it - is it worth it getting those? > > The effect is subtle at first glance but it grows increasingly important as you need to unlock further and further zones. > For example, with boss 100 as the base: > 1.20^100 = 82,817,975 > 1.25^100 = 4,909,093,465 > 1.40^100 = 410,018,608,884,990 > > As you can probably tell the difference can end up being pretty impactful, my current 1.40 means that the same boss 100 gives me an extra 6 (well, 6.695) bosses worth of stats compared to 1.20. Might want to check your rebirth screen again, the max you can get in Sadistic is 1.25. Together the bonuses make a difference of 5-6 bosses over the whole 300 range, but only 1.5-2 bosses if you're just looking at avoiding the more expensive perk and quirk. As far as AP goes, I buy an awful lot of infusers with my free AP. I also buy E/M beta pots, but I'm lazy and only rebirth once every week so they feel practically free.

That's wat I get for not double checking well enough, I am in the process of questionning my brain how 1.24 was turned into 1.40 and just ran with it, thanks for pointing that out (this is a bit embarassing...).

Yeah.. so if all I can make out of this is getting 5-6 more bosses , I guess I will postpone buying these perks/quirks and rather boost more card tiers or so.

Another reason not to push to next adv zone yet would be my ADV stats. It doesn't seem to grow much. Then I noticed that I've SOFTCAPed the Infinity Cube both P and T. Well, that would explain it. Since then I've put 1.5e9 EXP into each.. but I'm already softcaping T. This would make about 1/2 of my EXP go into adv stats, if I want to keep up with this. **One question**: when my Infinity Cube is SOFTCAPed , are all boosts that I put into the cube wasted until I raise my P or T? Or does it add the boosts, and only then cap the total P/T the cube can give me?